What's the big deal?

[Deus Irae]

To some suggesting that the team wasn't giving 100% in this game or any others (such as against the Dolphins) is the ultimate heretical statement.

They want you to "prove" what you say you saw - and if you don't have 100% proof, shame on you for suggesting they weren't giving their all.

If you're not a fair weather fan you ignore such things, and tell yourself that there's no reason to be down when your team is 3-2, regardless of their performance.

Bruschi said that effort wasn't a problem in the game. You should let him know that you think he's a liar.

 

[mgteich]

Facts are not allowed in this discussion. Brady was one the best QB's in the league during his first six games and he was an accomplished QB.

Two great plays by Jammer messed up two long passes last night, and 2001 called to remind you that Brady couldn't throw deep back then.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Bruschi said that effort wasn't a problem in the game. You should let him know that you think he's a liar.

I didn't say I didn't think they were giving full effort - KontradictioN did.

I was merely pointing out that there are a lot of Righteous Fans who like to thump their chests by chiding those who would note such an observation or opinion, suggesting he's somehow less of a fan for expressing concern over a poor performance.

There's some who seem to think that expressing concerns - often the same concerns of the coaches - makes one a "fair weather fan" and that it's bad to have high expectations for quality play and execution.

Thanks for making my point though.

 

[drewimp12]

I would just say, The Defense is the big deal. Both games they lost we absolutely gross!!! Just because fans aren't all butterflies and unicorns about this team, doesn't make them fair weather fans.
I will Root for them even if they don't win another game this year, so what. It's not the end of the world.
I will say that this is not the 01 Pats. Brady may have been an unknown, but at least he threw more than 33 passes in college. He played in the big 12 and thats some real competition. To compare Cassel to Brady is just absurd.

read this guys blog, it's pretty good.
ESPN - Patriots' offense miserable in so many ways - AFC East

Think of first and goal on the one, no score!! Cassel sucks badly.

 

[Kontradiction]

Bruschi said that effort wasn't a problem in the game. You should let him know that you think he's a liar.

I respect the hell out of Bruschi and you should know this. However, if he thinks the D was giving a full effort then I would hate to see what they look like on an off day.

 

[Garbanza]

We are 3-2. OK, I get it, that's not 5-0. But its not 0-5 either.
We have lost twice, in games where we progressively played worse as the game unfloded and we were playing frm behind.

We have played FIVE games we have ELEVEN left.
Why am I seeing fairweather fans writing off the season?

Why am I seeing the same fans who watched the Pats start 2005 even worse than they have started 2008 then said we were screwed in the playoffs and playing better than any team in the NFL, now saying this season is over?

Why is it that fans turn on this team (saying we suck and the season is over is turning on the team) when it is no longer arguable as an iron-clad favorite?
Why would fans not stay supportive of a team that is 3-2, one game out of first place, has 68% of its season left to play?

I'm sitting here saying if we can beat Denver at home, we should be able to beat the Rams, then its us vs the also 3-2 Colts, for us to be either 6-2 or 5-3 at the halfway point, and the rest of the so-called fans on this board are giving up on the season. I don't get it.

Hasn't anyone been paying attention? Hasn't anyone noticed that, we have had severe defieciencies, just like every team has, in Championship years, and corrected them. Why would we not want to give Bill Belichick the opportunity to take the next 3 months to correct these, before proclaiming hopelessness.

Is it arrogance?
Ignorance?
Spoiled?

I will tell you what the issues are - but first and foremost, criticizing the teams performance does not mean you are turning against your team. Seriously dude, you really need to get off that.

1) The secondary. It's bad. Well, it started off bad and got better as the evening progressed. But still, it's bad. I do envision this unit getting better however. There are signs of that.

2) Pass blocking - with someone like Cassell behind center - you know, the guy without pocket presence? - yah him. He needs a lot of time. Lots. I have to give it to the unit regarding the run clocking. Real improvement there.

3) Play calling. I'm known as a Josh McDaniel hater. I stand by that. He needs to understand that it's Matt Cassell under center - NOT TOM BRADY!

4) Matt Cassel - I see zero improvment in his pocket presence and zero improvement in his field vision. He panicks quickly when the pocket collapses. His reads are slow. I think he sucks. Sorry. He does. I would feel better if I thought he was showing improvement - but he is what he is.....not a legitimate NFL QB. We really should thank our lucky starst that the rb's, receivers, etc are pretty darn good.

5) D-line. Hello?

6) Blitz anyone?

All that said - nah, I don't see this team even making the playoff's - but I would not be shocked if they did. If that makes any sense. Personally, I've seen enough of Matt Cassel to know he can't lead this team very far. I want to see a change at QB.

 

[Deus Irae]

I didn't say I didn't think they were giving full effort - KontradictioN did.

I was merely pointing out that there are a lot of Righteous Fans who like to thump their chests by chiding those who would note such an observation or opinion, suggesting he's somehow less of a fan for expressing concern over a poor performance.

There's some who seem to think that expressing concerns - often the same concerns of the coaches - makes one a "fair weather fan" and that it's bad to have high expectations for quality play and execution.

Thanks for making my point though.

Given that I didn't call anyone's 'fandom', I didn't make your point. Now, feel free to have that conversation with Bruschi. Maybe you can boo him while you're at it.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not sure if you're joking or not Andy, but perhaps I should state the obvious and note that more than a few fans are looking past the actual record and are noting the poor play, poor execution, and growing injury list.

If the team were even 2-3 but were playing well on both sides of the ball yet jusst falling short, you might have an even stronger point to make.

But given the poor performance of the defense as well as the offense, I think you're stretching to suggest that this is a strong 3-2 team. Those players that aren't injured do not appear to be playing at the level we've come to expect from the Patriots - certainly the coaches seem to be voicing that as well.

That's the big deal.

(And by the way - you're not a fair weather fan if you expect maximum effort out of everyone on the team - not just the super stars... in past years we've seen second and third stringers step up and play well during times of injuries. THAT's the Patriot way. No excuses - you play hard all the time whether on 1st string or third. Excuse those of us who aren't fans of mediocrity, or who will cheer mediocre play because of the laundry. No one is any less of a fan because they don't see the point of cheering the team when they play badly.)

I am not sure I have any idea what you are talking about.
I don't know where I suggested the team was either strong or weak for a 3-2 team.
I said why are fans making up their mind on what is going to happen over the next 11 games, and giving up on the season?

I definitely have no clue what the last part in parentheses means.
First, I would love to know how you judge the difference between losing with maximum effort and losing with less than that, which ypu seem to think is happening.
No one is asking anyone to cheer mediocrity. I am saying this team is 3-2. THAT is what it is. In a week it will either be 3-3 or 4-2, and so on. By the end of the season it will be anywhere from 3-13 to 14-2. For some reason their is a rush to judgment on this board, with numerous posts saying things such as 'obviously we can give up on this year' 'lets play young players because the season is lost' etc.

I consider 'less of a fan' to be someone who has doomed the team to failure before it has happened. Showing concern, being unhappy about how the team has played, worrying that the 3 wins may mean less than the 2 losses because of the competition are all reasonable viewpoints. CONCLUDING that the season is over, proclaiming so and so sucks, so we are screwed is less of a fan to me.
I don't really care whether a fan has or lacks confidence about the team. I care when they give up on it.

 

[Kontradiction]

I will tell you what the issues are - but first and foremost, criticizing the teams performance does not mean you are turning against your team. Seriously dude, you really need to get off that.

1) The secondary. It's bad. Well, it started off bad and got better as the evening progressed. But still, it's bad. I do envision this unit getting better however. There are signs of that.

2) Pass blocking - with someone like Cassell behind center - you know, the guy without pocket presence? - yah him. He needs a lot of time. Lots. I have to give it to the unit regarding the run clocking. Real improvement there.

3) Play calling. I'm known as a Josh McDaniel hater. I stand by that. He needs to understand that it's Matt Cassell under center - NOT TOM BRADY!

4) Matt Cassel - I see zero improvment in his pocket presence and zero improvement in his field vision. He panicks quickly when the pocket collapses. His reads are slow. I think he sucks. Sorry. He does. I would feel better if I thought he was showing improvement - but he is what he is.....not a legitimate NFL QB. We really should thank our lucky starst that the rb's, receivers, etc are pretty darn good.

5) D-line. Hello?

6) Blitz anyone?

All that said - nah, I don't see this team even making the playoff's - but I would not be shocked if they did. If that makes any sense. Personally, I've seen enough of Matt Cassel to know he can't lead this team very far. I want to see a change at QB.

The team blitzed a ton last night. They just couldn't break through the Chargers' offensive line on time.

 

[Deus Irae]

I respect the hell out of Bruschi and you should know this. However, if he thinks the D was giving a full effort then I would hate to see what they look like on an off day.

You are confusing effort with effectiveness. There was no lack of effort when O'Neal was getting lit up like a Christmas tree, for example. He simply didn't get the job done.

 

[Ring 6]

I respect the hell out of Bruschi and you should know this. However, if he thinks the D was giving a full effort then I would hate to see what they look like on an off day.

Please give me the secret to what you see that proves to you there is a lack of effort.
How do you distinguish the difference between an offense scoring a TD against a D that is trying its best and scoring only because the D didnt real care about giving up the TD and didnt try to stop it.
What should I be looking for so I can tell.
Then I can call BB and give him the list of players to cut because they clearly aren't trying, and I can prove it to him.

 

[mgteich]

Perhaps posters here think that the rest of the team simply sux compared to the rest of the league, as does our coaching staff. Perhaps they think that it is only Brady who makes them all look good.

You see Belichick, Pioli and Kraft aren't so hot. It is all Brady!

If this is true, there are some pretty terrific teams and organizations out there who seem to be able to win without a QB as good as Brady. Only Manning and Favre are in the same discussion with Brady. So, what about the rest of teams. Are the teams so great? Are the staff's. Surely Fisher must be a much better coach to succeed with his QB than Belichick was to suceed with Brady.

Last I checked the other 31 teams dont have Tom Brady either.

 

[emoney_33]

I would just say, The Defense is the big deal. Both games they lost we absolutely gross!!! Just because fans aren't all butterflies and unicorns about this team, doesn't make them fair weather fans.
I will Root for them even if they don't win another game this year, so what. It's not the end of the world.
I will say that this is not the 01 Pats. Brady may have been an unknown, but at least he threw more than 33 passes in college. He played in the big 12 and thats some real competition. To compare Cassel to Brady is just absurd.

read this guys blog, it's pretty good.
ESPN - Patriots' offense miserable in so many ways - AFC East

Think of first and goal on the one, no score!! Cassel sucks badly.

Remember the goalline stand against the Colts? Was that good effort by the Pats or a lousy QB/offense? I know what it was... Peyton sucks badly.

 

[Ring 6]

I will tell you what the issues are - but first and foremost, criticizing the teams performance does not mean you are turning against your team. Seriously dude, you really need to get off that.

1) The secondary. It's bad. Well, it started off bad and got better as the evening progressed. But still, it's bad. I do envision this unit getting better however. There are signs of that.

2) Pass blocking - with someone like Cassell behind center - you know, the guy without pocket presence? - yah him. He needs a lot of time. Lots. I have to give it to the unit regarding the run clocking. Real improvement there.

3) Play calling. I'm known as a Josh McDaniel hater. I stand by that. He needs to understand that it's Matt Cassell under center - NOT TOM BRADY!

4) Matt Cassel - I see zero improvment in his pocket presence and zero improvement in his field vision. He panicks quickly when the pocket collapses. His reads are slow. I think he sucks. Sorry. He does. I would feel better if I thought he was showing improvement - but he is what he is.....not a legitimate NFL QB. We really should thank our lucky starst that the rb's, receivers, etc are pretty darn good.

5) D-line. Hello?

6) Blitz anyone?

All that said - nah, I don't see this team even making the playoff's - but I would not be shocked if they did. If that makes any sense. Personally, I've seen enough of Matt Cassel to know he can't lead this team very far. I want to see a change at QB.

Seriously, you need to read what I am saying.
Where am I saying that criticism is turning on the team?
I said GIVING UP ON THE SEASON, which is what a lot of posts said, is turning on the team.

Why does everyone insist that when people who OVEREACT are called out for being OVERLY NEGATIVE that it is a referendum against any negative comment?

 

[NYCPatsFan]

I'm not sure if you're joking or not Andy, but perhaps I should state the obvious and note that more than a few fans are looking past the actual record and are noting the poor play, poor execution, and growing injury list.

If the team were even 2-3 but were playing well on both sides of the ball yet jusst falling short, you might have an even stronger point to make.

But given the poor performance of the defense as well as the offense, I think you're stretching to suggest that this is a strong 3-2 team. Those players that aren't injured do not appear to be playing at the level we've come to expect from the Patriots - certainly the coaches seem to be voicing that as well.

That's the big deal.

(And by the way - you're not a fair weather fan if you expect maximum effort out of everyone on the team - not just the super stars... in past years we've seen second and third stringers step up and play well during times of injuries. THAT's the Patriot way. No excuses - you play hard all the time whether on 1st string or third. Excuse those of us who aren't fans of mediocrity, or who will cheer mediocre play because of the laundry. No one is any less of a fan because they don't see the point of cheering the team when they play badly.)

Great post that articulated my exact thoughts in a manner that I couldn't have done.

It's not that we lost that bothers me, it is the way we lost.

Why shouldn't I be concerned about how hapless both our our offense and defense (not ST) looked? Why shouldn't I be perturbed that neither unit put up a robust performance that gave me confidence that the performance could be fine tuned as the season goes along?

I will always support the team and am prepared to give stats/records a secondary importance; but to dismiss the second pathetic performance in five games as 'no big deal'? Just cannot do that.

That said, I will continue to give MC and the offense a longer leash. The defense however is making me feel very queasy. I discounted the Fins game as an aberration; but the way the Bolts offense dominated us last night makes me wonder what happened to the stout defense that many in the forum were raving about prior to the regular season.

 

[102 Pat]

I have to wonder if the Pats had won last night how many threads there would be proclaiming us as Super Bowl locks, etc, etc, etc. To be 3-2 right now is pretty good given what has happened so far.

I'm really glad I found this board as I used to be in the "dumps" after a Patriots loss. Now reading some of the ridiculous comments that followed last night's loss makes me feel better and ready for the Broncos game!

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

I'm not writing anything off yet. I look at the schedule, though, and 10-6 seems a lot less likely than 6-10.

I hope not. Maybe the team will come around. Ultimately, it's not a big deal -- even if they don't make the playoffs this year. So it goes. Lots of good years in a row, and we lost our best player. What concerns me, though, is that I see a systemic problem in the defense. Not sure what it is, but it's there, and that's kind of hard to fix in just one off season.

 

[drewimp12]

Remember the goalline stand against the Colts? Was that good effort by the Pats or a lousy QB/offense? I know what it was... Peyton sucks badly.

The D was great in that game, but chief there is nothing you can say to change my mind. Do you really think cassel is the man for the job??? If so why don't you ask moss about that. He is not using one of the best receivers in the game, and he has "Bledsoe" like happy feet. No Balance. This level is just to much for him.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not writing anything off yet. I look at the schedule, though, and 10-6 seems a lot less likely than 6-10.

I hope not. Maybe the team will come around. Ultimately, it's not a big deal -- even if they don't make the playoffs this year. So it goes. Lots of good years in a row, and we lost our best player. What concerns me, though, is that I see a systemic problem in the defense. Not sure what it is, but it's there, and that's kind of hard to fix in just one off season.

Systematic? We have consistently been one of the top few defenses in the NFL.
I agree that the system isn't pretty. It doesn't play the big play style of defense that fans are enamored with, but it succeeds, and wins.
We were 18-1 last year, and have won 3 SBs in 7 years, but after 2 losses, the problem is SYSTEMATIC? Come on, thats just not thinking it through

 

[Pats726]

I'm not writing anything off yet. I look at the schedule, though, and 10-6 seems a lot less likely than 6-10.

I love the logic in that one...lol..