What's the big deal?

[emoney_33]

The D was great in that game, but chief there is nothing you can say to change my mind. Do you really think cassel is the man for the job??? If so why don't you ask moss about that. He is not using one of the best receivers in the game, and he has "Bledsoe" like happy feet. No Balance. This level is just to much for him.

Ok then, now that we got that out of the way, just wait till next year.

Moss would have had 2 long catches if not for 2 great plays by Jammer BTW. It's hard for any young QB to have great composure in a pocket that is always collapsing because the O-Line has been struggling.

The entire team should be improving week to week and should be playing its best in December/January. We have no reason to believe they won't be.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I am not sure I have any idea what you are talking about.
I don't know where I suggested the team was either strong or weak for a 3-2 team.
I said why are fans making up their mind on what is going to happen over the next 11 games, and giving up on the season?

I definitely have no clue what the last part in parentheses means.
First, I would love to know how you judge the difference between losing with maximum effort and losing with less than that, which ypu seem to think is happening.
No one is asking anyone to cheer mediocrity. I am saying this team is 3-2. THAT is what it is. In a week it will either be 3-3 or 4-2, and so on. By the end of the season it will be anywhere from 3-13 to 14-2. For some reason their is a rush to judgment on this board, with numerous posts saying things such as 'obviously we can give up on this year' 'lets play young players because the season is lost' etc.

I consider 'less of a fan' to be someone who has doomed the team to failure before it has happened. Showing concern, being unhappy about how the team has played, worrying that the 3 wins may mean less than the 2 losses because of the competition are all reasonable viewpoints. CONCLUDING that the season is over, proclaiming so and so sucks, so we are screwed is less of a fan to me.
I don't really care whether a fan has or lacks confidence about the team. I care when they give up on it.

You asked what the "big deal" was with the expressions of concern about a 3-2 team - seemingly disregarding the quality of play and focusing solely on the standings.

I agree, it's far too early to "give up" on the team - but if they continue to play like they have been, by my observation we'd be looking at a very mediocre team.

So unless something changes, in resonse to your question, that's the "big deal" and no one should think the less of any fan that recognizes that the quality of play we've seen is NOT a prescription for another Championship.

In fact, I have a higher regard for fans that can see beyond the laundry and recognize such things about the teams they root for.

 

[Ring 6]

The D was great in that game, but chief there is nothing you can say to change my mind. Do you really think cassel is the man for the job??? If so why don't you ask moss about that. He is not using one of the best receivers in the game, and he has "Bledsoe" like happy feet. No Balance. This level is just to much for him.

This is the type of post that I do not understand.
What is the purpose? Cassell is our QB. Like it or not, thats the case. For us to win, Cassel is going to have to play better. I have watched enough football to know that players improve. I know that Matt Cassel doesn't 'suck' but that he is struggling with some aspects of leading the team, and can imagine his lack of experience has a lot to do with it.

I see a team that has gotten through 5 games with a QB who hasnt started a game since High School (note that since experience may be an issue, this is important, I suppose) and has a winning record, and I think that is encouraging. While our QB is gaining some experience we have won 3 and lost 2.

You seem to want to type a post that has everyone say "OK, you are right, lets skip the next 11 weeks and agree the season is over, we can't win" I do not know what you hope to gain from that.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Given that I didn't call anyone's 'fandom', I didn't make your point. Now, feel free to have that conversation with Bruschi. Maybe you can boo him while you're at it.

You suggested that KontradictioN, in noting what he viewed as lack of full effort, was calling Bruschi a "liar". Unless you tend to call players "liars" yourself and view that as an indication of a good fan, I'd say you were calling Kontradiction's "fandom" into play.

Beyond that, surely you're a smart enough fan to realize that players aren't always truthful with their comments via the media, aren't you?

Do you think players always tell the truth - about injuries? about issues better kept "within the locker room" rather than airing dirty laundry about teammates lack of commitment via the media? (if indeed not everyone was giving full effort, don't you view it as plausible that Bruschi of all people would want to keep that matter private?)

Please tell me you aren't this naive or view Bruschi's comments as a strict "black and white" he's "lying" or he's not. You can do better than that.

(and for the record, in this thread you've now incorrectly stated that I'm calling Bruschi a liar and that I was booing the team - or have booed at all this season. Neither is the case. Feel free to apologize anytime you'd like.)

 

[Ring 6]

You asked what the "big deal" was with the expressions of concern about a 3-2 team - seemingly disregarding the quality of play and focusing solely on the standings.

I agree, it's far too early to "give up" on the team - but if they continue to play like they have been, by my observation we'd be looking at a very mediocre team.

So unless something changes, in resonse to your question, that's the "big deal" and no one should think the less of any fan that recognizes that the quality of play we've seen is NOT a prescription for another Championship.

In fact, I have a higher regard for fans that can see beyond the laundry and recognize such things about the teams they root for.

No I did not. I did not ask what the big deal WITH EXPRESSIONS OF CONCERN WAS. I asked why are fans giving up on a season that has 11 weeks left when we have a winning record.

The big deal is that you are PREDICTING THE NEXT 11 GAMES BASED ON THESE 5.
In other words, you are trying to take 5 games and decide what they tell you the next 11 will be, as if these 5 games mean anything more than 3 wins and 2 losses.

 

[Joker]

Bring back Rucci and Lane!!!...and John Stephens too!

actually Andy, it's the nature of today's "fan"..failure in the midst of high expectations creates unrest...I'm immune to it. I remember the Schaeffer stadium days. Made it through that, I can damn sure weather this storm.

 

[Ring 6]

You suggested that KontradictioN, in noting what he viewed as lack of full effort, was calling Bruschi a "liar". Unless you tend to call players "liars" yourself and view that as an indication of a good fan, I'd say you were calling Kontradiction's "fandom" into play.

Beyond that, surely you're a smart enough fan to realize that players aren't always truthful with their comments via the media, aren't you?

Do you think players always tell the truth - about injuries? about issues better kept "within the locker room" rather than airing dirty laundry about teammates lack of commitment via the media? (if indeed not everyone was giving full effort, don't you view it as plausible that Bruschi of all people would want to keep that matter private?)

Please tell me you aren't this naive or view Bruschi's comments as a strict "black and white" he's "lying" or he's not. You can do better than that.

(and for the record, in this thread you've now incorrectly stated that I'm calling Bruschi a liar and that I was booing the team - or have booed at all this season. Neither is the case. Feel free to apologize anytime you'd like.)

Really a huge stretch to try to use 'do you think players always tell the truth to the media' as evidence that a statement to the media isn't true. Weak argument.

I'm still waiting for all these fans who are so adept at judging whether players are trying or not to tell what to look for so I can know too. No one seems to want to share that with me.

 

[Deus Irae]

You suggested that KontradictioN, in noting what he viewed as lack of full effort, was calling Bruschi a "liar". Unless you tend to call players "liars" yourself and view that as an indication of a good fan, I'd say you were calling Kontradiction's "fandom" into play.

Why on Earth would I ever call Kontradiction's "fandom" into play? I find him to be an honest poster who strives to be evenhanded with the team.

Beyond that, surely you're a smart enough fan to realize that players aren't always truthful with their comments via the media, aren't you?

Do you think players always tell the truth - about injuries? about issues better kept "within the locker room" rather than airing dirty laundry about teammates lack of commitment via the media? (if indeed not everyone was giving full effort, don't you view it as plausible that Bruschi of all people would want to keep that matter private?)

Given that I've played team sports up through the College level, and I've been around professional athletes for much of my life, I'm pretty sure that I have a grasp on what they are capable of. You should talk to Bruschi in person, tell him you think he's a liar, and then boo him.

 

[Kontradiction]

You are confusing effort with effectiveness. There was no lack of effort when O'Neal was getting lit up like a Christmas tree, for example. He simply didn't get the job done.

This is true as well. I cannot say effectively that they weren't giving an effort. I can say that, based on what I saw from 3,000+ miles away, the team didn't seem motivated (not just the defense). But it is easy to confuse effort with effectiveness especially if the team was as uneffective as it was last night. I don't know which is worse though. No effort or no effectiveness.

You suggested that KontradictioN, in noting what he viewed as lack of full effort, was calling Bruschi a "liar". Unless you tend to call players "liars" yourself and view that as an indication of a good fan, I'd say you were calling Kontradiction's "fandom" into play.

Call me Kontra. And, to be honest with you, I don't feel as if Deus was calling my fandom into play.

 

[Ring 6]

Bring back Rucci and Lane!!!...and John Stephens too!

actually Andy, it's the nature of today's "fan"..failure in the midst of high expectations creates unrest...I'm immune to it. I remember the Schaeffer stadium days. Made it through that, I can damn sure weather this storm.

But how is 3-2 failure?
How is losing on the road to a team that was 14-2 2 years ago (possibly SB bound if we didnt knock them off) and in the AFCC game last year (definitely SB bound if we didnt knok them off) the harbinger of gloom and doom?

I know we have come to expect unbelievable success from this team, but isnt there a point where you have to be reasonable?

 

[JoeSixPat]

The big deal is that you are PREDICTING THE NEXT 11 GAMES BASED ON THESE 5.
In other words, you are trying to take 5 games and decide what they tell you the next 11 will be, as if these 5 games mean anything more than 3 wins and 2 losses.

As I said I agree its too early to give up.

But if someone else wants to note the qualtiy of play and note that it has been mediocre at best, and note that the chances of a mediocre team winning the Lombardi trophy is pretty slim, I'm not going to call them... what were the choices you offered?

"arrogant, ignorant or spoiled" That's a helluva an open minded view you've got there - tell me, which of those is most fattering and respectful of those who are wondering why the play of the team this season should be thrown out as an indication of how they'll play for the rest of the season?

And would you care to embellish as to why you don't think the play of the team to date should have any bearing on a prediction on how they will continue to play? I for one would welcome any such theories.

 

[Ring 6]

This is true as well. I cannot say effectively that they weren't giving an effort. I can say that, based on what I saw from 3,000+ miles away, the team didn't seem motivated (not just the defense). But it is easy to confuse effort with effectiveness especially if the team was as uneffective as it was last night. I don't know which is worse though. No effort or no effectiveness.



Call me Kontra. And, to be honest with you, I don't feel as if Deus was calling my fandom into play.

This is an age old argument. Every team, every loss, fans want to chalk it up to a lack of motivation or effort.
My opinion is that when the team wins, AS A FAN you feel excitement, pride and motivation. When they lose you feel disappointment, regret, and malaise.
I believe that fans transfer their own feelings to the team, and therefore when the team wins it was motivated and when it loses, especially by a lot, it didn't care becuase it 'didn't feel like they cared' because MY emotions were negative.

Personally, I find it incredulous that NFL players would not try. They basically can have their career, and possibly their life ended on any given play by injury. They can also have their livlihood taken away by being cut if they suck.
To think that players much less an entire team, just wouldn't care and went out and felt more like getting physically assualted than trying to stop it is ridiculous.

Would you think that a professional boxer just wasn't motivated in a fight to block punches thrown at his face, so didn't try and got his jaw broken? Its kinds the same thing to me with the NFL.

Personally, I think we have a workforce in America that Fs off a lot (hey, Im a real motivated guy and im doing it right now) so they think its just why people fail. Thats not really the case, and the Patriots didnt fail last night because it was one of those days they felt like f-ing off at work. If they f-off, they get pummelled by the guy on the other team.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Why on Earth would I ever call Kontradiction's "fandom" into play? I find him to be an honest poster who strives to be evenhanded with the team.

Given that I've played team sports up through the College level, and I've been around professional athletes for much of my life, I'm pretty sure that I have a grasp on what they are capable of. You should talk to Bruschi in person, tell him you think he's a liar, and then boo him.

My mistake - for some reason I took your statement that calling Bruschi a "liar" was a bad thing. Obviously you think that good fans call players "liars".

I too have played team sports through the college level and we would NEVER call out a player in public for lack of effort or most other matters, even if asked direct question.

We would keep such matters internal. Obviously you and I had different experiences.

Really a huge stretch to try to use 'do you think players always tell the truth to the media' as evidence that a statement to the media isn't true. Weak argument.

I didn't say Bruschi was lying - but Deus has clearly ruled out the fact that Bruschi might not want to call out team members in public. Why don't you point out the fallacy of that logic?

Why does everything have to be black and white with you folks?

It's idiotic to suggest that players always tell the truth to the media. Nor would anyone suggest they always lie. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Bruschi's comment was splitting hairs, noting that he didn't feel commitment was a "factor" in the outcome of a 20 point loss.

 

[Joker]

But how is 3-2 failure?
How is losing on the road to a team that was 14-2 2 years ago (possibly SB bound if we didnt knock them off) and in the AFCC game last year (definitely SB bound if we didnt knok them off) the harbinger of gloom and doom?

I know we have come to expect unbelievable success from this team, but isnt there a point where you have to be reasonable?

well, failure ,it would seem, is anything other than a perfect 5-0 at this point. Speaking for myself, 3-2 at this point is ABOVE my expectations, considering all the injuries.

 

[Ring 6]

As I said I agree its too early to give up.

But if someone else wants to note the qualtiy of play and note that it has been mediocre at best, and note that the chances of a mediocre team winning the Lombardi trophy is pretty slim, I'm not going to call them... what were the choices you offered?

"arrogant, ignorant or spoiled" That's a helluva an open minded view you've got there - tell me, which of those is most fattering and respectful of those who are wondering why the play of the team this season should be thrown out as an indication of how they'll play for the rest of the season?

And would you care to embellish as to why you don't think the play of the team to date should have any bearing on a prediction on how they will continue to play? I for one would welcome any such theories.

Joe,
You really have to slow down and READ. You are arguing with me about things I didn't say. You seem to have made up my position and are arguing with me that the position you made up for me is wrong.

Nowhere did I say criticizing how the team is playing has anything to do with what I am talking about. I've explained that to you now at least 4 times. Arrogant, ignorant or spoiled was SPECIFICALLY directed at fans GIVING UP ON THE SEASON.
-----Let me give you an analogy here. I say anyone who lights a cigar with a $100 bill is either arrogant, ignorant or spoiled. You now argue with me that I am calling anyone who discusses whether lighting a cigar with a $100 bill arrogant, ignorant or spoiled. You just aren't keeping up here.


AGAIN, I did not say that how a team played in 5 games can't help you predict the next 11 games, I said that what happened in those 5 does not determine the outcome of the next 11. In other words, a 'really bad 3-2' is still 3-2, and all that can happen in a game is a win or a loss. The overriding opinion on this board is that these 2 lossses have doomed the season, and we cannot win in the near future because of the near past and nothing could be further from true.

 

[Ring 6]

My mistake - for some reason I took your statement that calling Bruschi a "liar" was a bad thing. Obviously you think that good fans call players "liars".

I too have played team sports through the college level and we would NEVER call out a player in public for lack of effort or most other matters, even if asked direct question.

We would keep such matters internal. Obviously you and I had different experiences.



I didn't say Bruschi was lying - but Deus has clearly ruled out the fact that Bruschi might not want to call out team members in public. Why don't you point out the fallacy of that logic?

Why does everything have to be black and white with you folks?

It's idiotic to suggest that players always tell the truth to the media. Nor would anyone suggest they always lie. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Bruschi's comment was splitting hairs, noting that he didn't feel commitment was a "factor" in the outcome of a 20 point loss.

I think there are a ton of things Bruschi could say. When he chooses to say effort wasnt the problem, I tend to believe thats what he thinks. I cant imagine why he would say effort isnt the problem if effort is the problem.
This isn't calling out or not calling out or protecting players, its just a statement.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

Is it bad? Hell no! The pats under BB have notoriously started slow and picked up steam (save last year) and were always playing best at the end of the season. I expect the same this year.

But, in 4 of those years Tom Brady was our QB. In 01 he was still unknown, I will agree with that. That's where I personally believe the comparisons with the 01 brady led team and the 08 cassel lead team end

Brady had some promise at least in that yr, Cassel is a novice, he has not played, and he is just nervous.. He is afraid to make a mistake.. Its just not going to click for him.. Its one week at a time, but we knew this 6 weeks ago.. Cassel was never going to be the mad bomber, but he needs to be some what for this team to keep defense honest..

 

[JoeSixPat]

Joe,
You really have to slow down and READ. You are arguing with me about things I didn't say. You seem to have made up my position and are arguing with me that the position you made up for me is wrong.

Nowhere did I say criticizing how the team is playing has anything to do with what I am talking about. I've explained that to you now at least 4 times. Arrogant, ignorant or spoiled was SPECIFICALLY directed at fans GIVING UP ON THE SEASON.
-----Let me give you an analogy here. I say anyone who lights a cigar with a $100 bill is either arrogant, ignorant or spoiled. You now argue with me that I am calling anyone who discusses whether lighting a cigar with a $100 bill arrogant, ignorant or spoiled. You just aren't keeping up here.


AGAIN, I did not say that how a team played in 5 games can't help you predict the next 11 games, I said that what happened in those 5 does not determine the outcome of the next 11. In other words, a 'really bad 3-2' is still 3-2, and all that can happen in a game is a win or a loss. The overriding opinion on this board is that these 2 lossses have doomed the season, and we cannot win in the near future because of the near past and nothing could be further from true.

AJ - read your own post. You can't seem to understand why any fan would think that the mediocre play they've seen to date doesn't give them much, or in some cases, any chance to win a Lombardi.

Personally I hope the team can change the way its been playing - and hold hope they will. Personally I don't have any particular reason WHY I think that will happen - but I still hope it will.

But if someone is looking at the talent, performance and execution of play to date and doesn't think that bodes well for a Lombardi - I don't think they should be called (pick one or all) arrogant, ignorant or spoiled.

I don't agree with them, but I'm not going to pigeonhole them into the group you've put them in.

Each of them have their own particular reasons and deserves to be treated respectfully, especially by a moderator.

I'd again be interested in knowing why you DON'T think that the first 5 games indicates how they will continue to play - maybe I won't agree with your assessment, but I'm not going to call you "ignorant, arrogant or spoiled" if I don't.

I think there are a ton of things Bruschi could say. When he chooses to say effort wasnt the problem, I tend to believe thats what he thinks. I cant imagine why he would say effort isnt the problem if effort is the problem.
This isn't calling out or not calling out or protecting players, its just a statement.

But the question is, if Bruschi DID believe that not all of his teammates were giving 100% effort, can you not understand why Bruschi would choose not to call them out in the media?

That's the question - Deus has ruled that out. If Bruschi says it - its 100% true and if anyone believes otherwise they are calling Bruschi a liar... according to Deus.

That;s a helluva a black and white view in a game where gamesmanship requires that players be less than truthful with the media when it comes to a long list of issues, including injuries.

Now I wouldn;'t rule out that a player might actually WANT to call out his teammates in the media if they weren't giving 100% but I think that wouldn't be the first step - keep it in house first.

Personally I view the SD game as more about injuries and poor execution rather than not giving 100% - but I can't rule out that certain players weren't giving their all either. Others apparently can, just the way they view every word that comes out of a players mouth in media comments to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

That makes no sense to me.

 

[dtbrks]

well, failure ,it would seem, is anything other than a perfect 5-0 at this point. Speaking for myself, 3-2 at this point is ABOVE my expectations, considering all the injuries.

Yes, 3-2 is above my expectations considering Brady and Moroney (ok, i just threw him in there because he is "supposed" to be our starting running back) haven't played at all this year (again, Moroney has but you couldn't tell )

Seriously, when Brady went down I thought the worst. My expectations have been changed, maybe people don't like that, but that's how i feel and i hope not to be ridiculed for doing so

 

[cstjohn17]

I'm sitting here saying if we can beat Denver at home, we should be able to beat the Rams, then its us vs the also 3-2 Colts, for us to be either 6-2 or 5-3 at the halfway point, and the rest of the so-called fans on this board are giving up on the season. I don't get it.

I cheer for the Pats.

My assessment is they will be 4-4 at the break, which is still ok. The schedule gets easier after Indy, Pittsburgh is the only really tough game left. They have a lot of divisional games left, this baby is not over. November is huge, three divisional games with two at home. Even if they are 5-5 after 10 games a nice run at the end may get them in to the playoffs. A win against the Colts would be almost as good as a superbowl, as would being a spoiler against the Jets / Dolphins / Bills. Still lots to cheer about.

The loses, they be ugly. The wins they be sweet, Go Pats.

Sun 11/9 Buffalo
Thu 11/13 NY Jets
Sun 11/23 at Miami
Sun 11/30 Pittsburgh
Sun 12/7 at Seattle
Sun 12/14 at Oakland
Sun 12/21 Arizona
Sun 12/28 at Buffalo