What if... moving up for Carpenter

[rookBoston]

I'm feeling real good about Moroney and Jackson, but I still have this huge, lasting regret that we dont have Bobby Carpenter on the roster. I watched Carpenter for most of the last college season, and I felt that he was arguably a better all around player than AJ Hawk.

There are reports that the Pats tried to trade up to #17, ahead of Dallas, but we're able to close the deal with the Vikes, who really wanted Greenway.

Now, Miami drafted Jason Allen at #16, and you have to think that they would have been willing to trade back to #21 and still have a decent expectation that Allen would still be on the board for them.

Supposing that Pioli had been able to make that trade with Miami, to move up to #16 to steal Carpenter. It may have cost the 3rd rounder, plus a Day Two pick. But it would have made Chad Jackson an impossibility for us. What would that draft class have looked like?

#16 - OLB Bobby Carpenter
#52 - WR Greg Jennings
#86 - TE Dave Thomas

as opposed to

#21 - RB Lawrence Moroney
#36 - WR Chad Jackson
#86 - TE Dave Thomas

I think Moroney is going to be great, gives us a future at RB, and Jackson has the makings of a pro-bowl calibre talent. With them in place, we've got a stunningly talented and deep, score-at-will type of offense.

But I sure would feel better about the team with Carpenter and Colvin, Vrabel and Bruschi anchoring the LB unit. If we'd traded up for Carpenter, we would have had tougher questions to answer at WR, but we would have more than enough talent at TE to compensate.

As things stand, either our outside pass rush or our run-stopping D is going to need a youngster step up and fill the void. No wonder Belichick was working with Mincey and Woods during rookie camp-- that seems to be, clearly, the weak link on the roster right now. Plus, we're as thin as an egg shell in terms of depth at LB.

I'm not predicting doom: things can change quickly, and there is some good reason to hope for Beisel or Claridge to step up. But still, in terms of long term solutions, my lasting hope for the Pats is starting to take the form of Georgia DE Quentin Moses and Penn State LB Paul Posluzny... I'll be watching the college game real close for other (more achievable) nominees.

Question: With what you know now, would you rather have Carpenter and Jennings or Moroney and Jackson?

 

[IcyPatriot]

Brady got the snots kicked out of him when Dillon went down. It was blitz city each and every game...I am way with Boney Maroney.

 

[Richter]

Not even a question, Maroney and Jackson. I've been on the Chad Jackson bandwagon a long time, well before he was drafted, and I think he'll be the best player out of the four.

 

[bosfan]

I like the way we went with Maroney and Jackson, these guys could really juice up our offense, am anxiously awaiting the possibilities.........

 

[The Gr8est]

Not even a question, Maroney and Jackson. I've been on the Chad Jackson bandwagon a long time, well before he was drafted, and I think he'll be the best player out of the four.

I wasn't on board with jackson in the 1st but am very happy where we got him. I am stoked at the reports of how good he looked in the mini-camp. We have reason to hope that he may be the exception as a high round WR who performs early and well. The part that I am really pleased about is that as good as jackson looks, he wasn't even our top pick, and our top pick looks as good as or better than advertised as well.

Considering that after being able to look at all of our picks more closely, there is reason to be optomistic about everyone of our picks. I can see every one of them making the team, and we already have a SB caliber roster.

This draft crop has the potential to be one of our best after what we've seen so far.

 

[edzo44]

Actually I think "injuries" were the weak link in our roster last year. It hurt the defense and it hurt the offense. At the end of the season the defense was starting to look really good.

The season didn't get killed at the end by the defense, the season got ended by offensive mistakes and the refs. I'll definitely take the offensive players and I love both Maroney and Jackson as our initial two picks.

 

[Big_Os_Hometown]

Interesting... Kinda like Sliding Doors NFL Draft style

I had a similar thought process in 2004 when we had a chance for Steven Jackson. Had we taken Jackson at 32, then to trade up and get Ben Watson would have prob cost. #3 (Scott) and #4 (Cobbs)

Our 2004 take would include:
WILFORK
JACKSON
WATSON
HILL Swapped pick
SAM
MORTON

Would you do it?

 

[zippo59]

There is no way a rookie LB, even a first round pick can come in a make a significant impact on defense. If you think Bobby Carpenter would have been the defensive savior this year, it is simply inaccurate. He would not have been able to make a real impact until at leat next year, but probably the year after. If you're feeling unconfident about the D this year because they didn't draft B Carpenter, then don't be. He wouldn't have made an impact.

 

[R_T26]

Rookie lB's can make an impact, look at Vilma, ware, and merriman. But the fact was is that Brady got killed last year becuase no one resoected the run. Maroney gives this offense a break away threat that not even dillon could give us in 2004. as for drafting jackson in 2004-first he wasnt available @ 32, Rams took him soon after we got wilfork, and 2nd its been documented the running back the Pats would of taken at 32 was kevin Jones.

 

[zippo59]

Rookie lB's can make an impact, look at Vilma, ware, and merriman. But the fact was is that Brady got killed last year becuase no one resoected the run. Maroney gives this offense a break away threat that not even dillon could give us in 2004. as for drafting jackson in 2004-first he wasnt available @ 32, Rams took him soon after we got wilfork, and 2nd its been documented the running back the Pats would of taken at 32 was kevin Jones.

Rookie LB's can make an impact on other teams, but it is known that the Patriots have probably the most complicated scheme for their LB's to learn than any other team in the league. They have to worry about so many things that it is highly unlikey a rookie could come into the Pats and be a solid fixture. It takes 2-3 years to learn BB's scheme as a LB.

 

[spacecrime]

I had a similar thought process in 2004 when we had a chance for Steven Jackson. Had we taken Jackson at 32,

We had a chance for Jackson, but not at 32. It would have been Jackson instead of Wilfork. Both Steve Jackson and Kevin Jones were off the board by 32.

 

[BelichickFan]

#16 - OLB Bobby Carpenter
#52 - WR Greg Jennings
#86 - TE Dave Thomas

as opposed to

#21 - RB Lawrence Moroney
#36 - WR Chad Jackson
#86 - TE Dave Thomas

Question: With what you know now, would you rather have Carpenter and Jennings or Moroney and Jackson?

I'm happier with what we got (and not just because they're now Patriots). I did like Jennings as a second/third round pick but that was when I thought it would cost us out #1 for Jackson or Holmes so I was looking for cheaper alternatives. I do think that Maroney can have as much, if not more, impact as Carpenter would have and I like Jackson a good bit more than Jennings.

I said several times before the draft that we have the best QB in the league and we need to both protect him and provide him weapons for the next 6 years or so. I didn't think we would make this comittment but we did and I'm very happy about it.

 

[flutie2phelan]

Rookie LB's can make an impact on other teams, but it is known that the Patriots have probably the most complicated scheme for their LB's to learn than any other team in the league. They have to worry about so many things that it is highly unlikey a rookie could come into the Pats and be a solid fixture. It takes 2-3 years to learn BB's scheme as a LB.

Sign me up, zippo.
LB clearly is a position that Patriots only grow into - either ILB or OLB.
Nobody joins a Belichick roster ... and plays LB right off the bat.

As BeliFan says, the commitment to the O is surprising ... but how exhilarating!

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

Rookie LB's can make an impact on other teams, but it is known that the Patriots have probably the most complicated scheme for their LB's to learn than any other team in the league. They have to worry about so many things that it is highly unlikey a rookie could come into the Pats and be a solid fixture. It takes 2-3 years to learn BB's scheme as a LB.

I agree.

It was too much for Chad Brown to absorb, and we'll see if Biesel is any better at getting it.

Lots of people are getting skttish about the Pats' D this year. I'm not in that camp.

 

[PatsWorldChamps]

no question. hawk and carpenter will both be busts.

 

[milwaukeebeers44]

I was gung-ho Bobby Carpenter before the draft. I was pretty butt hurt when the Cowboys got him (but we all saw that coming). Then, I read some of the scouting negatives on him, and a couple of them caught my eye:

SI.com NEGATIVES: Not an explosive or quick defender. Marginal skill in pursuit. Must add strength and learn how to play with greater leverage. Has trouble disengaging from bigger linemen when they get hold of his pads. More of a finesse tackler, and doesn't have much "pop" when he hits. Needs to show better run stopping ability.

Of course, every guy's got his down sides, but there was a reason they weren't hot to trot after him. Obviously, they were after Jackson. . .

 

[rookBoston]

Interesting how quickly the party line has settled in.

Not that Moroney wont help Brady, but the reason Brady got killed last year wasn't because of the running game. It was because Light and Ashworth went to IR, we were playing two rookies on the left side of the line, and the RT position was anchored by Gorin.

The reason Carpenter is such a good fit for the Patriots is because he could step into LB without learning a new position. He played a very similar position for the Buckeyes, played with his hand down as a pass rusher, and dropped into coverage as a LB. He got offseason coaching from Vrabel and modeled his game after Vrabel, too.

Most LBs will take a while to learn the system (Beisel, for example), but that's because they were DEs in college or played in a 4-3. Carpenter is way ahead of the curve on that. There are very few LBs in the college game with Carpenter's size and quickness.

No, I sure Carpenter would have contributed very quickly on D. That's what makes it such a tragedy: it will take years to find another LB so "ready" to play LB for BB.

 

[bucky]

Rookie LB's can make an impact on other teams, but it is known that the Patriots have probably the most complicated scheme for their LB's to learn than any other team in the league. They have to worry about so many things that it is highly unlikey a rookie could come into the Pats and be a solid fixture. It takes 2-3 years to learn BB's scheme as a LB.

Well Carpenter is going to the Cowboys - a team with a VERY similar scheme, even if it is less complex than BB's. And Parcells is thinking Carpenter can be a starter, or at least a rotation player. Truth of the matter is that OLB is not that complicated, especially when you've got Bruschi and Vrabel playing ILB and making all the calls.

There are 2 things I like about us not trading up for Carpenter - 1) The fortunate byproduct of us being able to scoop up Jackson and 2) The Colts not getting Maroney. Value-wise, I think Maroney+Jackson is better than Carpenter+whoever we got at 52.

One final point, I'm not so sure Miami would have traded out of 16. If we take Carpenter at 16 and Greenway goes 17, it's very possible the Cowboys take Allen at 18. And if the Cowboys don't, the Chargers might have. It all depends on how the Dolphins and Cowboys had Lawson rated. It appears the Pats' didn't like Lawson nearly as much as the posters on this board. If the same was true for Saban and Parcells (and you have to figure that to be the case) I don't think Miami trades back and risks losing their guy.

 

[dryheat44]

Most LBs will take a while to learn the system (Beisel, for example), but that's because they were DEs in college or played in a 4-3. Carpenter is way ahead of the curve on that. There are very few LBs in the college game with Carpenter's size and quickness.

No, I sure Carpenter would have contributed very quickly on D. That's what makes it such a tragedy: it will take years to find another LB so "ready" to play LB for BB.

There's a reason that BB hasn't drafted any defensive players from OSU. Their 3-4 is much, much different than our 3-4, so it's not enough that Carpenter played LB in a 3-4. If he played LB at LSU under Saban, then I might agree with you. But even then, there's Alexander. BB likes him enough to keep him around in a bottom or roster/PS area at higher pay than usual, and even made it a point to get him back when he was forced to cut him. And he's contributed very little in the regular defense. It may be at the end of this year or next year before BB feels comfortable sending him out there to sink or swim.

I don't want to compare a first-round pick to a UDFA, but I think that's the reason BB hasn't drafted LBs in the first round. No matter what your college stats were, you're a freshman all over again with the Pats.

 

[JoeSixPat]

A few scouts I heard pre-draft stated that Bobby Carpenter was always the last of the big three defenders from Ohio State to be "in" on most plays

I'm not saying he's a bad player but that troubled me greatly - especially when I know his big assett is his versatility... jack of all trades, master of none

So part of me wonders whether his value is his versatility or his skill

In the 2nd round down I'm keen on versatility - 1st round choices should be highly skilled players, who are always the FIRST to be in on the play - not the last