Welcome the New Pats DEFENSE: Aggressive, Exciting, Innovative

[Patriot Missile]

We should just name this thread the same old Pat's defense,non aggressive and dull to make some people happy.

According to some are defense was ok last year. 8th against the run and 25th against the pass. I guess thats ok with some fans as long as they weren't giving up points. But really? Maybe the reason why we were 8th against the run is because everyone knew they could sling it all over the field on our team. People weren't running the ball on 3rd down because they knew they could just throw for it successfully. That awesome 3rd down defense was amazing last year. But hey we had a strong red zone defense which only gave up field goals after being gassed all over the field again.

I'm just as reasonable and cautious as the next fan when it comes to weighing preseason success but some people on this board are in some serious denial if they can't be excited by what's going on with the defense..

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Could not be happier with the events of this off-season.

Shift to a more aggressive style of defense (preferably a 1-gap scheme) -- looks like we are running a base 4-3 1-gap defense -- love it, have wanted it for a very long time

Big time acquisitions for top flight talent -- Chad Ochocinco and Haynesworth.

Kick tires on and bring in seasoned vets who are hungry for a Super Bowl on one year low risk high reward deals -- Ellis, Andre Carter, etc. Kicking tires on Housh, Sharper, Crowder, etc.

This is the most excited for a season that I have been since 2007. And we all know how that season went until the very end.

The 1-gap defense is much more conducive to dominating/imposing your will/dictating the game on defense. It is more conducive to playmaking. It gives players like Mayo, Wilfork, Carter, Haynesworth, etc. more of a chance to make game-changing plays.

Not only that, but players LOVE playing in an aggressive D, where the coach lets them get after the QB, shoot gaps, blow plays up in the backfield. It gives them a bit more freedom and allows a guy like Mayo to really use his total skillset. That's why guys have loved playing for Rex's D. You give Wilfork a choice between two-gapping on early downs vs shooting gaps and blowing plays up in the backfield, of course he's going to like the latter much more.

I've always felt that the one-gap defense breeds more playmaking, intensity, energy, and swagger on defense. Guys are all pumped up, you're trying to wreak havoc and get into the backfield, you feel like you're imposing your will on the other team. Yes, it comes with more risk than a bend but don't break 2-gap defense, but it also comes with more reward. If you're playing 2-gap all day in the base, you can almost get lulled to sleep or you can wind up thinking too much instead of playing with your instincts and athleticism.

You can just tell from the pre-season games how much these guys are enjoying playing in this defense. I bet Jerod Mayo absolutely loves it. And when you've got happy players who know their coach believes in them that are playing in a scheme they love, you can be an extremely dangerous defense.

 

[rufcut]

I'm just as reasonable and cautious as the next fan when it comes to weighing preseason success but some people on this board are in some serious denial if they can't be excited by what's going on with the defense..

And you're also missing the point. The reason the defense looks better is because of new talent, not a new philosophy. I'm excited, too!

 

[bagwell368]

And you're also missing the point. The reason the defense looks better is because of new talent, not a new philosophy. I'm excited, too!

Could you expound on that?

 

[BHSL2]

I've always felt that the one-gap defense breeds more playmaking, intensity, energy, and swagger on defense. Guys are all pumped up, you're trying to wreak havoc and get into the backfield, you feel like you're imposing your will on the other team. Yes, it comes with more risk than a bend but don't break 2-gap defense, but it also comes with more reward. If you're playing 2-gap all day in the base, you can almost get lulled to sleep or you can wind up thinking too much instead of playing with your instincts and athleticism.

I think what we often define as a Football risk is so dependent on many variables in a game.

You can gash a conservative run defense just as much as you can gash a 1-gap scheme. Reactive defense couldn't stop Ray Rice from running 80 yards to freedom against our defense in the playoffs. That' nothing against 2-gapping, but a bunch of missed assignments or D-linemen getting blown off the line can free up extra blockers and really screw over your 2-gap 3-4 linebackers, who in theory should only have to worry about a pulling guard or wrapping TE/FB. That's the key word. Theory is great until numerous samples have showed a few (or many) holes on that particular stance, or have revealed other methods to the madness.

In other words, 2-gapping has won us Superbowls, but it's not the only, or the best way. Belicheck simply felt that entertaining other forms of defense would improve 3rd-down and other important situations. Sure, its risky to assign gaps to 7-8 players and have them do their best to shoot/ contain them, but it's also risky to tell 3 D-lineman to basically dominate the man in front of them and patrol 2 gaps consistently while getting to the QB. It's risky to tell your linebackers to fight o-linemen who are 50lbs heavier than they are. Hopefully your 3 linemen can do it, but you'll probably have to send 1 or 2 LBs to assist the rush. All that does is create more passing lanes. That too is something I'm sure Belichick thought about doing differently. If he feels that he can add stopping an Offense by telling 4 athletic D-lineman to beat a blocker with speed and hustle more frequently to the play-calling arsenal, that's the team's choosing.

I'm not going to claim that we were absolutely conservative on 3rd downs last season (Because that certainly wasn't the case, and I remember the Pitt game specifically), but Belicheck knows we had a sub-par pass defense in 2010. He knows his players, and he's going to put his players in better positions to succeed. That's all defense is in football, correct situational placement.

Personally, I felt that coming in to this off-season, the Patriots had athletic linebackers better suited to chase and pursue, rather remaining stout against guards. I don't care what defense we play as long as we have our players playing to their strengths. But right now, we are dealing with a scheme in which we have a bunch of our athletes dominating with their physical ability by forcing the issue. You can argue that it's 3-4/4-3 over, under, stack, eagle, whatever. The mentality is different, and that's clearly noticeable. We aren't taking more or fewer risks, but we are changing what risks we take. Belicheck is just tweaking his Patriot philosophy.

 

[Deus Irae]

I love the silliness this sort of discussion brings out. It shows who can't be bothered to hearken back all the way to 2007, nevermind 2001-2004, where the Patriots and their 2 gap scheme were terrorizing opponents with the defense and ranking up near the top of the league in sacks.

It shouldn't have to be said yet again, but apparently it does:

One gap/two gap is not the issue. Personnel is the issue, and it has been for years.

 

[BHSL2]

I love the silliness this sort of discussion brings out. It shows who can't be bothered to hearken back all the way to 2007, nevermind 2001-2004, where the Patriots and their 2 gap scheme were terrorizing opponents with the defense and ranking up near the top of the league in sacks.

It shouldn't have to be said yet again, but apparently it does:

One gap/two gap is not the issue. Personnel is the issue, and it has been for years.

Agreed. Personnel dictates the risks you can take. Back then we had the players to easily overpower you by 2-gapping. But I think in this era of Patriot era, some adjustments were required to adapt to this new personnel.

 

[rufcut]

Could you expound on that?

The stats don't back up my statement.

I hate when that happens.

 

[Ring 6]

If you feel Brady was not secretly frustrated at times when he took the team down to score only having the other team duplicate it,that's your opinion...If you are not a recent adopted Patriots fan then you know anything thought of whether its good or bad will never hit the media under Belichick's regime.

Wait, so your proof that he was upset is that if he was he wouldn't say anything?

I can't think of anything more frustrating to an Elite QB than a defense struggling at 3rd and long which was the case when the defense was struggling early to mid season,the defense improved gradually but we all expected the new players to develop game to game.

Yes I can think of a lot of things, including having one of the 24 defenses that were worse than the Patriots last year.

You obviously have no idea of what I am getting at,sometimes with you,you have a closed mind to what you think a person is explaining and don't fully comprehend...I am sure most fans in here do understand what I am getting at.

No I have a very open mind, what you are trying to get it is simply wrong.

Like I said,a monkey could understand my point...you are lost here and are never going to get it and I won't waste time after this post slowly getting you to understand my POV

The comment made no sense in English. It was unintelligible.

And to answer the original question...yes,Brady had a phenomenal year and I don't think this team comes anywhere near 14-2 without his incredible play in 2010

Well, he was the MVP so of course the team wouldn't have done as well without him. I suppose considering the team allowed the 8th fewest points the starting point would be they would have only had the 8th best record with an average QB.
This still has absolutely nothing to do with you taking Brady complementing the defense and turning that into some seething deepseated anger he harbors toward the defense when there has been absolutelty nothing EVER in his career to support that.
You are making stuff up out of thin air and using moronic made up arguments to back it up.

 

[Ring 6]

Could not be happier with the events of this off-season.

Shift to a more aggressive style of defense (preferably a 1-gap scheme) -- looks like we are running a base 4-3 1-gap defense -- love it, have wanted it for a very long time

I am curious why with a HC who has been more successful than any in the league who has always employed a 2gap you would prefer to change to someone elses system?

Big time acquisitions for top flight talent -- Chad Ochocinco and Haynesworth.

Kick tires on and bring in seasoned vets who are hungry for a Super Bowl on one year low risk high reward deals -- Ellis, Andre Carter, etc. Kicking tires on Housh, Sharper, Crowder, etc.

This is the most excited for a season that I have been since 2007. And we all know how that season went until the very end.

The 1-gap defense is much more conducive to dominating/imposing your will/dictating the game on defense. It is more conducive to playmaking. It gives players like Mayo, Wilfork, Carter, Haynesworth, etc. more of a chance to make game-changing plays.

Thats really not true. One gap vs 2 gap describes RUN defense. Yes, it creates more opportunity to get a 2 yard loss, but it also creates less opportunity to hold a run to no gain or less.
The other side is that it gives the offense more of an opportunity to make big plays.

Not only that, but players LOVE playing in an aggressive D, where the coach lets them get after the QB, shoot gaps, blow plays up in the backfield.

Players have consistently loved playing for BB.
The coach in a 2gap defense also lets the players get after the QB.

It gives them a bit more freedom and allows a guy like Mayo to really use his total skillset. That's why guys have loved playing for Rex's D.

Ah. So you are one of those who wants that dummy BB to wise up and copy the genius Rex Ryan.

You give Wilfork a choice between two-gapping on early downs vs shooting gaps and blowing plays up in the backfield, of course he's going to like the latter much more.

really? Do you think he will enjoy being blocked down and totally out of the play on a run the other side of the guy he is shading? Thats not a lot of fun either.

I've always felt that the one-gap defense breeds more playmaking, intensity, energy, and swagger on defense.

Tell that to our championship teams, the Giants of the 80s, etc.

Guys are all pumped up, you're trying to wreak havoc and get into the backfield, you feel like you're imposing your will on the other team.

Dominating an OL and controlling the line of scrimmage is much more 'will enforcing' that making a play in the one gap you are cheating toward to cover.

Yes, it comes with more risk than a bend but don't break 2-gap defense, but it also comes with more reward.

Does it?
Do you know which team has led the NFL in takeaways the last 10 years?
Guess what scheme they played?

If you're playing 2-gap all day in the base, you can almost get lulled to sleep or you can wind up thinking too much instead of playing with your instincts and athleticism.

So if I line up across from Nick Mangold and fight him man on man all day long trying to control the entire area on both sides of him, I get lulled to sleep? Have you ever played football?

You can just tell from the pre-season games how much these guys are enjoying playing in this defense.

How can you tell that?

I bet Jerod Mayo absolutely loves it.

Mayos job really hasnt changed much. He blitzed a few times in that game, but that isn't just because we were playing one gap. (Actually it appears we are playing 1gap on the weak side and 2 gap on the strong side so far)

And when you've got happy players who know their coach believes in them that are playing in a scheme they love, you can be an extremely dangerous defense.

Right because for 30 years BBs players didn't believe in him because he liked that stupid 2 gap defense until Rex Ryan taught him some lessons about defense right?

 

[Ring 6]

I think what we often define as a Football risk is so dependent on many variables in a game.

You can gash a conservative run defense just as much as you can gash a 1-gap scheme.

Not really because a conservative run defense is designed to not be gashed.

Reactive defense couldn't stop Ray Rice from running 80 yards to freedom against our defense in the playoffs. That' nothing against 2-gapping, but a bunch of missed assignments or D-linemen getting blown off the line can free up extra blockers and really screw over your 2-gap 3-4 linebackers, who in theory should only have to worry about a pulling guard or wrapping TE/FB.

What???????????

So if I assign 2 players to a gap and the other team has an 80 yard run then that means 80 yards runs are just as likely if only one man is assigned to the gap?

There was a robbery in my town last month, so we don't need police?

That's the key word. Theory is great until numerous samples have showed a few (or many) holes on that particular stance, or have revealed other methods to the madness.

This makes no sense.

In other words, 2-gapping has won us Superbowls, but it's not the only, or the best way. Belicheck simply felt that entertaining other forms of defense would improve 3rd-down and other important situations.

We have never 2gapped on 3rd down passing downs. There is no change in our nickel/dime packages by changing the base from 1 gap to 2 gap.

Sure, its risky to assign gaps to 7-8 players and have them do their best to shoot/ contain them, but it's also risky to tell 3 D-lineman to basically dominate the man in front of them and patrol 2 gaps consistently while getting to the QB.

They aren't 'patrolling 2 gaps' when its a pass play.

It's risky to tell your linebackers to fight o-linemen who are 50lbs heavier than they are.

Who do you expect to block them in a one gap?

Hopefully your 3 linemen can do it, but you'll probably have to send 1 or 2 LBs to assist the rush. All that does is create more passing lanes.

There is no difference in the pass rush in a one gap or two gap scheme.

In a 34 one of the LBs is the 4th rusher.

I don't know what you are talking about here.

That too is something I'm sure Belichick thought about doing differently. If he feels that he can add stopping an Offense by telling 4 athletic D-lineman to beat a blocker with speed and hustle more frequently to the play-calling arsenal, that's the team's choosing.

Huh?

I'm not going to claim that we were absolutely conservative on 3rd downs last season (Because that certainly wasn't the case, and I remember the Pitt game specifically), but Belicheck knows we had a sub-par pass defense in 2010. He knows his players, and he's going to put his players in better positions to succeed. That's all defense is in football, correct situational placement.

So what is he going to do differently on 3rd down? One gap or two gap is not relevant to how you play 3rd and 6, 8, 10, 15, 20, etc.

Personally, I felt that coming in to this off-season, the Patriots had athletic linebackers better suited to chase and pursue, rather remaining stout against guards. I don't care what defense we play as long as we have our players playing to their strengths. But right now, we are dealing with a scheme in which we have a bunch of our athletes dominating with their physical ability by forcing the issue.

The scheme doesn't make the players dominate, the players making the play dominate.

You can argue that it's 3-4/4-3 over, under, stack, eagle, whatever. The mentality is different, and that's clearly noticeable.

The mentality is different because of two preseason games?

We aren't taking more or fewer risks, but we are changing what risks we take. Belicheck is just tweaking his Patriot philosophy.

If we play one gap run defense, by definition we are taking more risk. What else do you think has changed? We haven't even gameplanned for a game yet.

By the way, from my viewpoint the change has been that we have played 1 gap on the weakside and 2gap on the strongside, so lets not act as if we threw the blueprints out the window.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

I think what we often define as a Football risk is so dependent on many variables in a game.

You can gash a conservative run defense just as much as you can gash a 1-gap scheme. Reactive defense couldn't stop Ray Rice from running 80 yards to freedom against our defense in the playoffs. That' nothing against 2-gapping, but a bunch of missed assignments or D-linemen getting blown off the line can free up extra blockers and really screw over your 2-gap 3-4 linebackers, who in theory should only have to worry about a pulling guard or wrapping TE/FB. That's the key word. Theory is great until numerous samples have showed a few (or many) holes on that particular stance, or have revealed other methods to the madness.

In other words, 2-gapping has won us Superbowls, but it's not the only, or the best way. Belicheck simply felt that entertaining other forms of defense would improve 3rd-down and other important situations. Sure, its risky to assign gaps to 7-8 players and have them do their best to shoot/ contain them, but it's also risky to tell 3 D-lineman to basically dominate the man in front of them and patrol 2 gaps consistently while getting to the QB. It's risky to tell your linebackers to fight o-linemen who are 50lbs heavier than they are. Hopefully your 3 linemen can do it, but you'll probably have to send 1 or 2 LBs to assist the rush. All that does is create more passing lanes. That too is something I'm sure Belichick thought about doing differently. If he feels that he can add stopping an Offense by telling 4 athletic D-lineman to beat a blocker with speed and hustle more frequently to the play-calling arsenal, that's the team's choosing.

I'm not going to claim that we were absolutely conservative on 3rd downs last season (Because that certainly wasn't the case, and I remember the Pitt game specifically), but Belicheck knows we had a sub-par pass defense in 2010. He knows his players, and he's going to put his players in better positions to succeed. That's all defense is in football, correct situational placement.

Personally, I felt that coming in to this off-season, the Patriots had athletic linebackers better suited to chase and pursue, rather remaining stout against guards. I don't care what defense we play as long as we have our players playing to their strengths. But right now, we are dealing with a scheme in which we have a bunch of our athletes dominating with their physical ability by forcing the issue. You can argue that it's 3-4/4-3 over, under, stack, eagle, whatever. The mentality is different, and that's clearly noticeable. We aren't taking more or fewer risks, but we are changing what risks we take. Belicheck is just tweaking his Patriot philosophy.

In theory, yes, the 2-gap is supposed to be more "conservative" because in principle it guards against the big play by building a wall, forcing the RB to choose where to go, and then reacting to the RB's decision. Many argue that 2-gapping is better suited to defend the run because 1-gapping leaves you more susceptible to cutbacks by the RB's. But all theories go awry, and that is indeed why they are called theories and not laws. Personnel, opponent, conditions, etc. all play a role and impact theoretical x's and o's talk.

The "mentality" part is the part that I'm really talking about. I have long felt that allowing players the freedom to consistently try to get upfield and blow plays up in the backfield breeds more energy/swagger/intensity and playmaking. This style of defense juts has a different type of feel to it and I personally feel that the players enjoy this style of defense much more. Players love "being aggressive" and being "turned loose" by their coach.

I like how you brought up the Steelers game because I thought that was the best defensive game this team played all of 2010. There was a report that the Patriots blitzed more in that game than they had in any game since 2006. Wilfork mentioned after the game how the coaching staff and the scheme for that game "let them be aggressive" and how he "loved it."

I expect that we will see more of this type of defense in 2011, and not only do us fans love it, but the players love it as well. Jerod Mayo is primed for an even bigger year than last year.

I love the silliness this sort of discussion brings out. It shows who can't be bothered to hearken back all the way to 2007, nevermind 2001-2004, where the Patriots and their 2 gap scheme were terrorizing opponents with the defense and ranking up near the top of the league in sacks.

It shouldn't have to be said yet again, but apparently it does:

One gap/two gap is not the issue. Personnel is the issue, and it has been for years.

I agree with you that personnel has been a big-time issue for the defense over the last 3-4 years, but I think one-gap/two-gap is part of the issue as well.

Not only did the Patriots have elite personnel in those glory years of 03/04, but the league was a different league. The rules have changed since then. The league has become much more of a passing league than it was back then. Back then, guys like LaDanian Tomlinson and Larry Johnson were carrying the rock 350 times per year and approaching 20 TD's per year. That doesn't happen anymore. Not only are two back systems more prevalent, but the NFL is more pass-oriented now.

In 2009, there were 10 QB's who threw for over 4,000 yards. In 2003, there were 2 QB's who threw for over 4,000 yards. You look at the last few years, and QB's numbers are way up. Brees threw for over 5,000 yards in 2008. The QB's are getting better and better. Very few teams are built around a running game -- the NFL is trending much more towards a QB driven league. The Jets have had a great running game and a great defense for the past two years, but they've eventually fallen to teams with better passing attacks and QB's.

Rex took Mangini's 2008 middle of the pack Belichick-styled Jets defense and turned them into the most dominant defense in the league in 2009 with more or less the same personnel. Teams like the Packers, Saints, Steelers, and Giants have all won Super Bowls with similar philosophies on defense -- aggressive one-gap schemes. This style of defense just seems to be the better way to go about defending opponents with the way teams are chucking the ball around the field.

It's just a personal opinion of mine: I think the two-gap defense is a bit outdated for the pass-happy NFL. I'm not just getting caught up in the media frenzy of this training camp and the alleged evolution of the D, I've felt this way for quite a while now (go back and check some posts if you want to from 2009 on).

While I agree that personnel has been a problem for this team on defense, I believe scheme has too. It is hard/difficult to find DL for the 2-gap 3-4. Seymour-types don't grow on trees. McGinest and Vrabel-types don't grow on trees. A one-gap scheme is much easier to address needs with. You can go after some undersized edge rushers. You can go after some shorter/squatty DL who excel at shooting gaps. You can get a more immediate impact from a college player that you draft. I think a guy like Cunningham would be much more productive coming right out of college and being plugged in as a DE in a one-gap 4-3 scheme rather than trying to learn the techniques/coverages/intricacies of a 2-gap 3-4.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

I am curious why with a HC who has been more successful than any in the league who has always employed a 2gap you would prefer to change to someone elses system?


Thats really not true. One gap vs 2 gap describes RUN defense. Yes, it creates more opportunity to get a 2 yard loss, but it also creates less opportunity to hold a run to no gain or less.
The other side is that it gives the offense more of an opportunity to make big plays.



Players have consistently loved playing for BB.
The coach in a 2gap defense also lets the players get after the QB.




Ah. So you are one of those who wants that dummy BB to wise up and copy the genius Rex Ryan.


really? Do you think he will enjoy being blocked down and totally out of the play on a run the other side of the guy he is shading? Thats not a lot of fun either.


Tell that to our championship teams, the Giants of the 80s, etc.



Dominating an OL and controlling the line of scrimmage is much more 'will enforcing' that making a play in the one gap you are cheating toward to cover.


Does it?
Do you know which team has led the NFL in takeaways the last 10 years?
Guess what scheme they played?



So if I line up across from Nick Mangold and fight him man on man all day long trying to control the entire area on both sides of him, I get lulled to sleep? Have you ever played football?


How can you tell that?



Mayos job really hasnt changed much. He blitzed a few times in that game, but that isn't just because we were playing one gap. (Actually it appears we are playing 1gap on the weak side and 2 gap on the strong side so far)


Right because for 30 years BBs players didn't believe in him because he liked that stupid 2 gap defense until Rex Ryan taught him some lessons about defense right?

Andy, I'm tired of arguing this with you. I respect your football knowledge, but sometimes you are in denial. This is a different style of defense that BB is employing -- it's a fact. Everyone has noticed it -- the media, the fans, the analysts. You seem to be the only one still holding onto this belief that we are playing the same old defense -- it's just not true.

I know you are a fierce arguer, and I respect how you back up your arguments with facts. But what happened under BB in 2003 is irrelevant. The league has changed. It's not the same league it was 10 years ago, let alone 5 years ago.

It's a personal opinion of mine that Rex Ryan's style of D is more conducive to defending in the current NFL. I know you disagree and I know you love BB, but that's you're opinion and you're entitled to it.

If you want to crunch the numbers, then fine. I crunched these numbers leading up to the Jets vs Pats on Dec 6 2010, through 12 weeks of the 2010 NFL season, before we blew the Jets out 45-3. I thought this file would be moot after the embarrassment we of the Jets D, but let's take a look at BB vs Rex in terms of defense.

Rex Ryan became a defensive coordinator in 2005 with the Ravens and remained in that position through 2008. He took over the Jets in 2009 as head coach and basically runs the defense just like Belichick runs the defense in New England. Examining 3 important defensive stats: total yards per game given up, points per game given up, and takeaways. How they rank against the rest of the league is in parenthesis for the first two categories.

2010 through Week 12:
Rex: 296.9 YPG (#3), 17.0 PPG (#4), 20 takeaways
BB: 399.1 YPG (#31), 24.2 PPG (#22), 20 takeaways
Rex winning 2-0-1

2009:
Rex: 252.3 YPG (#1), 14.8 PPG (#1), 31 takeaways
BB: 320.2 YPG (#11), 17.8 PPG (#5), 28 takeaways
Rex wins 3-0

2008:
Rex: 261.1 YPG (#2), 15.2 PPG (#3), 34 takeaways
BB: 309.0 YPG (#10), 19.3 PPG (#8), 22 takeaways
Rex wins 3-0

2007:
Rex: 301.6 YPG (#6), 24.0 PPG (#22), 23 takeaways
BB: 288.3 YPG (#4), 17.1 PPG (#4), 31 takeaways
BB wins 3-0

2006:
Rex: 264.1 YPG (#1), 12.6 PPG (#1), 37 takeaways
BB: 294.4 YPG (#6), 14.8 PPG (#2), 32 takeaways
Very close, but Rex wins 3-0

2005:
Rex: 284.3 YPG (#5), 18.7 PPG (#10), 23 takeaways
BB: 330.2 YPG (#26), 21.1 PPG (#17), 18 takeaways
Rex wins 3-0

Tally them up, and from 2005 to Week 12 of 2010, Rex leads Belichick in those categories with a record of 14-3-1. Belichick is 3-14-1. Belichick's 3 wins came in 2007, which all of the somewhat objective fans consider an aberration.

Now, if you look at 2004, the Patriots gave up 310.8 YPG (#9) and 16.2 PPG (#2) with 36 takeaways, and in 2003, the Patriots gave up 291.6 YPG (#7) and 14.9 PPG (#1) with 41 takeaways. The Patriots also had an elite collection of personnel at that point, with guys like Law, Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel, Colvin, McGinest, Washington, Phifer, etc. in their prime, and guys like Asante, Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, Wilson, etc developing on defense.

That's not to say Rex didn't benefit from top talent like Ray Lewis or Chris McAlister or Ed Reed, but since Rex became a defensive coordinator, he has been a better defensive coach, based on the eye test and the number crunching, than Belichick.

I will grant you that BB's defenses of 03/04 were top-flight, but they also had an extremely special collection of guys from Law to Bruschi to Harrison to McGinest to Vrabel, etc. So yes, when given elite personnel, Belichick has had elite defenses. But when you look at them head to head over the past 5 years, Rex has had better defenses.

He's done it with two different teams. He's done it with elite talent, he's done it when elite talent got old and retired (McAlister, Rolle, etc.) He took a Jets team of average defensive talent and made it into the best defense in the league in the same year. He has given Tom Brady more trouble than any other defensive coach in recent memory. The Pats are 2-3 vs the Jets since Rex came to town. Belichick was outcoached by that "buffoon" Rex Ryan in the playoff loss we had to them this past season.

Face the facts -- Belichick is not the only "defensive genius" in the AFC East. Rex Ryan is every bit as good in terms of defensive x's and o's, and quite honestly, I think he's even better than Bill. The "defensive mastermind" Belichick has relied HEAVILY on Tom Brady to win for the past 4 years. NE's offense has been top 5, while it's defense has been middle of the pack, or in 2010's case bottom 5 in passing yards against.

Don't you find it a bit disturbing that the "best defensive mind ever" has had average to below average defenses for the past 4-5 years and has had to rely on a top-5 offense to win games? Yet he receives no criticism. It's like Brian Billick when he was an "offensive whiz" who relied HEAVILY on Rex/Marvin Lewis' defenses to win games. Baltimore was pitiful offensively.

A team is supposed to take after its head coach for the most part. If you have a defensive minded head coach, your strong suit should be your defense. The Patriots have been the exact opposite. Meanwhile, the Jets have had a defensive minded head coach and have had one of the best defenses in the league for the last 2 years.

I don't know how you can deny that Rex Ryan is a defensive genius. Just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean that he's a moron or a buffoon. Give credit where credit is due.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, I'm tired of arguing this with you. I respect your football knowledge, but sometimes you are in denial. This is a different style of defense that BB is employing -- it's a fact. Everyone has noticed it -- the media, the fans, the analysts. You seem to be the only one still holding onto this belief that we are playing the same old defense -- it's just not true.

Where did I say that we are playing the same defense?
I said that the one gap vs two gap is only applicable to run defense in the base.
If you want to pretend thats not the case or consider it an argument, I'm not sure what to tell you.

I know you are a fierce arguer, and I respect how you back up your arguments with facts. But what happened under BB in 2003 is irrelevant. The league has changed. It's not the same league it was 10 years ago, let alone 5 years ago.

I'm talking about what BB has done for 11 years.

It's a personal opinion of mine that Rex Ryan's style of D is more conducive to defending in the current NFL. I know you disagree and I know you love BB, but that's you're opinion and you're entitled to it.

OK, so I will put you in the column that thinks Rex Ryan can teach Bill Belichick about defense.

If you want to crunch the numbers, then fine. I crunched these numbers leading up to the Jets vs Pats on Dec 6 2010, through 12 weeks of the 2010 NFL season, before we blew the Jets out 45-3. I thought this file would be moot after the embarrassment we of the Jets D, but let's take a look at BB vs Rex in terms of defense.


I will grant you that BB's defenses of 03/04 were top-flight, but they also had an extremely special collection of guys from Law to Bruschi to Harrison to McGinest to Vrabel, etc. So yes, when given elite personnel, Belichick has had elite defenses. But when you look at them head to head over the past 5 years, Rex has had better defenses.

Wait. BB loses credit for having good players, but Ryan doesnt?

He's done it with two different teams. He's done it with elite talent, he's done it when elite talent got old and retired (McAlister, Rolle, etc.) He took a Jets team of average defensive talent and made it into the best defense in the league in the same year. He has given Tom Brady more trouble than any other defensive coach in recent memory. The Pats are 2-3 vs the Jets since Rex came to town. Belichick was outcoached by that "buffoon" Rex Ryan in the playoff loss we had to them this past season.

What did he do with 2 different teams? The Baltimore defense declined with him as DC. He was the DC that was at the helm when the team was 6 and 10 and Billick lost his job.
But thats OK, I have already accepted that you think Rex Ryan is a better defensive coach than BB, after all you even didnt count the 45-3 game because he is so great it couldnt have been his fault.

Face the facts -- Belichick is not the only "defensive genius" in the AFC East.

No, clearly you have shown that you believe he is an idiot who may finally figure this defensive thing out by copying someone elses ideas.

Rex Ryan is every bit as good in terms of defensive x's and o's, and quite honestly, I think he's even better than Bill.

Yes, you have made that clear, and all of Ryans rings (you know the ones he awarded himself in predictions) has proven that.

The "defensive mastermind" Belichick has relied HEAVILY on Tom Brady to win for the past 4 years. NE's offense has been top 5, while it's defense has been middle of the pack, or in 2010's case bottom 5 in passing yards against.

Right because yards are the measure of a defense.

Don't you find it a bit disturbing that the "best defensive mind ever" has had average to below average defenses for the past 4-5 years

No because he hasnt

criticism. It's like Brian Billick when he was an "offensive whiz" who relied HEAVILY on Rex/Marvin Lewis' defenses to win games. Baltimore was pitiful offensively.

Got it, so Belichick is a loser who is winning becuase Tom Brady saves his @ss.

A team is supposed to take after its head coach for the most part. If you have a defensive minded head coach, your strong suit should be your defense. The Patriots have been the exact opposite. Meanwhile, the Jets have had a defensive minded head coach and have had one of the best defenses in the league for the last 2 years.

Right, because being a winning HC isn't something your team should take after.

I don't know how you can deny that Rex Ryan is a defensive genius. Just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean that he's a moron or a buffoon. Give credit where credit is due.

Defensive GENIUS. 2 years makes him a GENIUS.

You know what, I like yuor first comment best.
There is no need to argue with you. I can either just stop wasting my time or decide that I want to root my team to yardage statistic rather than Championships.
But hey maybe we can get more tackles for loss this year, after all thats more important than winning.

 

[BHSL2]

Andy,

Players are successful because the scheme allows them to be. Particularly with younger players, it's much more important. For NE, 2010 was a defense with massive situational substitutions on defense so that the right players were on the field and other player weaknesses were masked. It doesn't matter what a scheme is 'perceived' to be, if you have players playing in a defense that doesn't suit their strengths and abilities, you're screwed. I'm not one of these posters who is suggesting that we abandon our 2-gap 3-4, or that Belichick has scrapped it-it's obviously not true. What I am saying is that your personnel from year to year will dictate what defensive alignment or calls become disadvantageous, and that applies to our 3-4 as well.

Belichick has pursued players with different skill sets this off-season to make his defenses more versatile and varied. One thing you can predict from coach is that he is unpredictable. There is solid backing to believe that we will see more of these 4-3/3-4 hybrid schemes well into the regular season.

There is a difference in pass rush in a 2-gap and 1 gap scheme. Linemen can be given different tasks. There are different ways to rush the passer.

 

[PatsFanStnfrd]

We should just name this thread the same old Pat's defense,non aggressive and dull to make some people happy. {Funny}

According to some are defense was ok last year. 8th against the run and 25th against the pass. I guess thats ok with some fans as long as they weren't giving up points. But really? Maybe the reason why we were 8th against the run is because everyone knew they could sling it all over the field on our team. People weren't running the ball on 3rd down because they knew they could just throw for it successfully. That awesome 3rd down defense was amazing last year. But hey we had a strong red zone defense which only gave up field goals after being gassed all over the field again.

I'm just as reasonable and cautious as the next fan when it comes to weighing preseason success but some people on this board are in some serious denial if they can't be excited by what's going on with the defense..

Well said!

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Where did I say that we are playing the same defense?
I said that the one gap vs two gap is only applicable to run defense in the base.
If you want to pretend thats not the case or consider it an argument, I'm not sure what to tell you.


I'm talking about what BB has done for 11 years.



OK, so I will put you in the column that thinks Rex Ryan can teach Bill Belichick about defense.


Wait. BB loses credit for having good players, but Ryan doesnt?



What did he do with 2 different teams? The Baltimore defense declined with him as DC. He was the DC that was at the helm when the team was 6 and 10 and Billick lost his job.
But thats OK, I have already accepted that you think Rex Ryan is a better defensive coach than BB, after all you even didnt count the 45-3 game because he is so great it couldnt have been his fault.


No, clearly you have shown that you believe he is an idiot who may finally figure this defensive thing out by copying someone elses ideas.


Yes, you have made that clear, and all of Ryans rings (you know the ones he awarded himself in predictions) has proven that.




Right because yards are the measure of a defense.


No because he hasnt


Got it, so Belichick is a loser who is winning becuase Tom Brady saves his @ss.


Right, because being a winning HC isn't something your team should take after.


Defensive GENIUS. 2 years makes him a GENIUS.

You know what, I like yuor first comment best.
There is no need to argue with you. I can either just stop wasting my time or decide that I want to root my team to yardage statistic rather than Championships.
But hey maybe we can get more tackles for loss this year, after all thats more important than winning.

It's a shame that you're too blinded by your homerism. No one can have an objective and reasonable discussion with you. You interpret things the wrong way intentionally and you defend BB and the Pats too much.

My point is that since the league has CHANGED to a more pass-heavy league, Rex's defenses have been better. I acknowledged the fact that BOTH Rex and BB have reaped the benefits of elite players, but feel that Rex has been more consistent over the last 5 years with different players and different teams.

You want to talk about how no team has more takeaways than BB's defense do over the last decade in every thread, but then when I use stats to prove you wrong about your view of Rex Ryan, stats all of a sudden become meaningless and you "root for championships, not yards against or points against." Pick a side. Should stats be used in this discussion or no? Stop changing sides based on whichever helps your argument more.

I don't know why you can't accept the fact that Rex has been a better defensive head coach than Belichick. If you give Rex Ryan Tom Brady instead of Mark Sanchez, the Jets probably win back to back Super Bowls the past two years. At the very least, they win one.

Rex Ryan and his "overrated schemes" shut down Manning, Brady, and Big Ben in three consecutive weeks on the road. The three best QB's, the three most prominent QB's in terms of winning over the last decade were SHUT DOWN by Rex Ryan and his Jets defense ON THE ROAD. He has one All-Pro in Darrelle Revis. He has one excellent LB in David Harris. He's has some good blue collar guys that will run through a wall for him like Leonhard and Bart Scott. He does not have elite talent on that defense. Calvin Pace is an average pass rusher. Kris Jenkins was on IR both years.

Belichick has a LOSING RECORD against Rex Ryan since Rex has become a head coach. In the biggest game of them all, Rex Ryan OUTCOACHED Belichick. I don't know how you still refuse to give Ryan credit. It's purely based on homerism and denial. Yes, Belichick has done it longer, but Belichick has also had Brady. He did NOTHING as a HC until he had Brady.

It's sad too because you offer good insight to the x and o talk of football. But I guess some people love their teams/coaches too much to see the truth. If you tell yourself something enough times, you'll eventually convince yourself that it's true.

Put Mark Sanchez on the 2010 Patriots and Tom Brady on the 2010 or 2009 Jets. The 2010 Patriots are probably 7-9 at best. The Jets are Super Bowl Champions.

 

[Joker]

Yes, Belichick has done it longer, but Belichick has also had Brady. He did NOTHING as a HC until he had Brady.

you might want to rethink that take...it's got more holes than a donut factory...

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Yes, Belichick has done it longer, but Belichick has also had Brady. He did NOTHING as a HC until he had Brady.

you might want to rethink that take...it's got more holes than a donut factory...

Why?

Cleveland
1991: 6-10, no playoffs
1992: 7-9, no playoffs
1993: 7-9, no playoffs
1994: 11-5, 1-1 in playoffs
1995: 5-11, no playoffs

New Enlgand W/O Brady
2000: 5-11, no playoffs
2008: 11-5, no playoffs


NE w/ Brady
2001: 11-5, SB win, 3-0 in playoffs
2002: 9-7, no playoffs
2003: 14-2, SB win, 3-0 in playoffs
2004: 14-2, SB win, 3-0 in playoffs
2005: 10-6, 1-1 in playoffs
2006: 12-4, 2-1 in playoffs
2007: 16-0, 2-1 in playoffs, SB appearance
2009: 10-6, 0-1 in playoffs
2010: 14-2, 0-1 in playoffs

In seven years without Brady as his QB, he made the playoffs once, getting to the Divisional Round and losing. With Brady as his QB, he has only missed the playoffs once. Those are facts.

Any head coach who made the playoffs 1 time in 7 years would likely never be given another shot to be a head coach in the NFL again.

 

[Joker]

for some reason you have a major hair across your ***** about Belichick..that's your business...try this..Belichick had an All Pro QB at the helm when he took over the Patriots...he watched a season and then made a move that rocked the sporting world (maybe you were underground in your bunker taking target practice at your BB dummy) by benching Bledsoe and starting unknown 6th round choice, Tom Brady.

you can't have it both ways ,bub...you want to NEGATE that decision, deride it, mock it,belittle it...go right ahead...I'm not even interested in any of this crap anyway...just sayin'...