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Weapons or Defense?


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ivanvamp

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Ok, Deus-style deathmatch here.

Before the Super Bowl, we were talking about the need to upgrade Brady's weapons significantly.

After watching Seattle's defense just dismember Denver's offense, we're talking about the need to build a punishing defense.

So given that they have limited resources, which would you prefer the Patriots improve: the weapons around Brady or the defense? Assume you can only do one.
 
Overall I expect more offense because we have more upgradable spots there. Doesn't have to be "weapons", OL has two upgradable spots for instance in addition to WR, TE, etc.

But if our interest in Michael Johnson was real last offseason I could see the one "big" move being for him to bookend with Chandler. We'd still find plenty of use for Ninkovich. If we got that done and brought back Talib we wouldn't have a lot to do on defense other han hope the "young 'uns" improve. That's counting on Siliga and hoping for Armstead.

Then I would spend most of the resources on offense.

I should add I'd love a stud Safety but with McCourtey there plus Bill's plunderings with mid level draftees I don't see it happening.

One last thing - the NFL is such an immediate copycat league, everyone will be out there looking for big, fast, tough defenders to follow the model of the latest winner. Both in the draft and FA. With a strong front 7 group in this year's draft I could see this being an insanely defensive draft and top offensive talent could fall a lot more than it would if Denver had won. It seems over reactionary but the NFL copycats very, very fast.
 
Defense, look even NE hasn't won a SB since they had a dominant defense.
 
I think one of the best weapons you could give TB is a strong D that can force turnovers, 3 & outs, and give the O the ball back with good field position.
 
If I have to pick one, I'd go with defense.
 
it all starts up front and the pats need upgrades at both OL and DL.

the pats have Gronk who is just as hard to cover as Calvin Johnson, they have Danny Amendola and Shane Vereen who will be Brady's new 100 rec guy if he can play a full 16 next year and 3 rookies all with different skill sets so im sure at lest one of them will stick,

BOTTOM LINE the pats need pass rush and a more physical style of play from the DB's
 
our needs remain the same as before the seahawks vs junior high school team.

Offensive line, and defense.
 
Defense. We've scored 500 points four times since we won a Super Bowl. And, haven't been able to finish the job and win it all. And, our two Super Bowl appearances were against two crappy opponents. The Giants were a good team that matched up with our weaknesses. Not even close to being a great team like Seattle.
 
all the offense needs is to stay healthy. A healthy Dobson, Edelman, Gronkowski, vereen and Brady was throwing for 350+ yards until Gronk went down again and Dobson injured his foot.
 
all the offense needs is to stay healthy. A healthy Dobson, Edelman, Gronkowski, vereen and Brady was throwing for 350+ yards until Gronk went down again and Dobson injured his foot.
The flip side is you can never count on health in the NFL. It's a blessing every year that #12 is able to play all 16 games. Injuries are going to happen so there's a need for depth at each position. I do agree I would be fine with addressing the o-line and leaving the weapons as is if it means a noticeable upgrade for the defense.
 
From 2007 on wards, all our playoff losses have been because the offense has not been able to execute in critical situations. Both out superbowl losses, one year we score 14, then next time we score 17, this year in Denver we score 18, last year against the Ravens we barely score 13. The defense usually did enough to keep the team in games, and the offense never got up enough, or sustained drives long enough to keep out defense from fatiguing by the 4th quarter.

The problem has always been offense, especially when 4 man rushes are able to break down the offensive line. We have always had a decent OL, and when Brady has time he can dissect most defenses. I had real hope this year especially when the running game was so potent at the end. The offense looked so much better when Gronkowski was back for those few games.

That being said, there were some rumblings/rumors here in Arizona, about Fitzgerald being a trade prospect. He is due 18 million next year and unless he is willing to renegotiate, he will be delt. Likely whatever team that gets him will not give up a lot of assets because of the large salary (they would then have to restructure and give him the money upfront so the cap hit would be limited). For a 1st round pick I would jump on that. There were also some rumblings about Anquan Boldin being available, and pairing him up with Fitzgerald for a year (with Brady at the helm) would probably be as potent an offense as any team. They are both tough physical WR that would match up with any secondary (and if Gronk would come back healthy the sky's the limit).

The last time the Pats were in a similar situation (loosing to Indy in 2006), BB made the deal for Moss, got Stallworth, and off to the races they went.

I think if Mayo, Kelley, Wilfork, all return healthy, our run D will be great. Talib or equivalent is all we need in the secondary and we will be good enough.
 
I would love to know what BB thinks after analyzing our 2013 year and then watching the Superbowl yesterday. It can't be status quo can it?
 
).

The last time the Pats were in a similar situation (loosing to Indy in 2006), BB made the deal for Moss, got Stallworth, and off to the races they went.

I think if Mayo, Kelley, Wilfork, all return healthy, our run D will be great. Talib or equivalent is all we need in the secondary and we will be good enough.

And the defense still couldn't finish the job, against a mediocre offense. Defense wins the big games.
 
From 2007 on wards, all our playoff losses have been because the offense has not been able to execute in critical situations. Both out superbowl losses, one year we score 14, then next time we score 17, this year in Denver we score 18, last year against the Ravens we barely score 13. The defense usually did enough to keep the team in games, and the offense never got up enough, or sustained drives long enough to keep out defense from fatiguing by the 4th quarter.

The problem has always been offense, especially when 4 man rushes are able to break down the offensive line. We have always had a decent OL, and when Brady has time he can dissect most defenses. I had real hope this year especially when the running game was so potent at the end. The offense looked so much better when Gronkowski was back for those few games.

That being said, there were some rumblings/rumors here in Arizona, about Fitzgerald being a trade prospect. He is due 18 million next year and unless he is willing to renegotiate, he will be delt. Likely whatever team that gets him will not give up a lot of assets because of the large salary (they would then have to restructure and give him the money upfront so the cap hit would be limited). For a 1st round pick I would jump on that. There were also some rumblings about Anquan Boldin being available, and pairing him up with Fitzgerald for a year (with Brady at the helm) would probably be as potent an offense as any team. They are both tough physical WR that would match up with any secondary (and if Gronk would come back healthy the sky's the limit).

The last time the Pats were in a similar situation (loosing to Indy in 2006), BB made the deal for Moss, got Stallworth, and off to the races they went.

I think if Mayo, Kelley, Wilfork, all return healthy, our run D will be great. Talib or equivalent is all we need in the secondary and we will be good enough.

It's so hard to tell if the problem is the offense or defense, historically. Consider all 8 playoff losses since their last SB victory (the year indicates the regular season year, not the actual date of the playoff loss): (Note, I'm counting defensive and special teams points scored for the offense, just to make this easier)

2005 - 27-13 at Denver
- Offense averaged 23.7 ppg, 387.6 ypg, and 1.4 TO/g
- Offense produced 13 points, 420 yards, and 5 turnovers
- Defense averaged 21.1 ppg, 330 ypg, and 1.1 TO/g
- Defense allowed 27 points, 286 yards, and 1 turnover

2006 - 38-34 at Indianapolis
- Offense averaged 24.1 ppg, 336.0 ypg, and 1.7 TO/g
- Offense produced 34 points, 319 yards, and 1 turnover
- Defense averaged 14.8 ppg, 294.0 ypg, and 2.0 TO/g
- Defense allowed 38 points, 455 yards, and 1 turnover

2007 - 17-14 vs NY Giants
- Offense averaged 36.8 ppg, 411.0 ypg, and 0.9 TO/g
- Offense produced 14 points, 274 yards, and 1 turnover
- Defense averaged 17.1 ppg, 288.0 ypg, and 1.9 TO/g
- Defense allowed 17 points, 338 yards, and 1 turnover

2009 - 33-14 vs Baltimore
- Offense averaged 26.7 ppg, 397.0 ypg, and 1.4 TO/g
- Offense produced 13 points, 196 yards, and 4 turnovers
- Defense averaged 17.8 ppg, 320.0 ypg, and 1.8 TO/g
- Defense allowed 33 points, 268 yards, and 2 turnovers

2010 - 28-21 vs NY Jets
- Offense averaged 32.4 ppg, 364.0 ypg, and 0.6 TO/g
- Offense produced 21 points, 372 yards, and 1 turnover
- Defense averaged 19.6 ppg, 367.0 ypg, and 2.4 TO/g
- Defense allowed 28 points, 314 yards, and 0 turnovers

2011 - 21-17 vs NY Giants
- Offense averaged 32.1 ppg, 428.0 ypg, and 1.1 TO/g
- Offense produced 17 points, 349 yards, and 1 turnover
- Defense averaged 21.4 ppg, 411.0 ypg, and 2.1 TO/g
- Defense allowed 21 points, 396 yards, and 0 turnovers

2012 - 28-13 vs Baltimore
- Offense averaged 34.8 ppg, 428.0 ypg, and 1.0 TO/g
- Offense produced 13 points, 428 yards, and 3 turnovers
- Defense averaged 20.7 ppg, 373.0 ypg, and 2.6 TO/g
- Defense allowed 28 points, 356 yards, and 0 turnovers

2013 - 26-16 at Denver
- Offense averaged 27.8 ppg, 385.0 ypg, and 1.3 TO/g
- Offense produced 16 points, 320 yards, and 0 turnovers
- Defense averaged 21.1 ppg, 373.0 ypg, and 1.8 TO/g
- Defense allowed 26 points, 507 yards, and 0 turnovers

Now, not taking into account weather or quality of opponent, it seems to me that the following observations can be made:

(1) The offense woefully underperforms compared to season averages, especially in the area of points scored.
(2) The offense turns the ball over far more than they normally do.
(3) The defense also gives up significantly more points than they do in the regular season.
(4) The defense gets far fewer turnovers than in the regular season. In fact, in their last four playoff losses, the Patriots, who averaged 2.2 takeaways per game during those four seasons, have precisely ZERO takeaways in the last four playoff losses.

That's really the crippling thing. Turnovers.

Offense:
- Averaged 1.2 giveaways per game during those 8 regular seasons.
- Averaged 2.0 giveaways per playoff loss those 8 years.

Defense:
- Averaged 2.0 takeaways per game during those 8 regular seasons.
- Averaged 0.6 takeaways per playoff loss those 8 years.

Bottom line: That's the single biggest key. They're great at taking the ball away during the regular season, which masks some of their defensive deficiencies. But during the last 8 playoff losses, they've just not been able to create game-changing turnovers, and so their D has to get stops and they've just not been able to do it.

But also, their offense, which is so good during the regular season at protecting the football, turns it over at nearly twice the rate during these last 8 playoff losses.

Maybe it's just as simple as that. Maybe it's just as simple as: when they get turnovers and protect the ball, they win, and when they don't get turnovers and protect the ball, they lose.

And given how good a job they do at that during the regular season, I don't know how you could foresee a total reversal of those things during these losses.
 
We had both, then injuries and the justice system swipped them away.
 
From 2007 on wards, all our playoff losses have been because the offense has not been able to execute in critical situations. Both out superbowl losses, one year we score 14, then next time we score 17, this year in Denver we score 18, last year against the Ravens we barely score 13. The defense usually did enough to keep the team in games, and the offense never got up enough, or sustained drives long enough to keep out defense from fatiguing by the 4th quarter.

The problem has always been offense, especially when 4 man rushes are able to break down the offensive line. We have always had a decent OL, and when Brady has time he can dissect most defenses. I had real hope this year especially when the running game was so potent at the end. The offense looked so much better when Gronkowski was back for those few games.

That being said, there were some rumblings/rumors here in Arizona, about Fitzgerald being a trade prospect. He is due 18 million next year and unless he is willing to renegotiate, he will be delt. Likely whatever team that gets him will not give up a lot of assets because of the large salary (they would then have to restructure and give him the money upfront so the cap hit would be limited). For a 1st round pick I would jump on that. There were also some rumblings about Anquan Boldin being available, and pairing him up with Fitzgerald for a year (with Brady at the helm) would probably be as potent an offense as any team. They are both tough physical WR that would match up with any secondary (and if Gronk would come back healthy the sky's the limit).

The last time the Pats were in a similar situation (loosing to Indy in 2006), BB made the deal for Moss, got Stallworth, and off to the races they went.

I think if Mayo, Kelley, Wilfork, all return healthy, our run D will be great. Talib or equivalent is all we need in the secondary and we will be good enough.
Um, no. The playoff losses have come as a result of the defense not forcing any turnovers or getting off the field on 3rd down.
 
I'm gonna go with both.
 
Everyone wants to copy the Super Bowl Champ. It's a good idea. The price for Talib went up on Sunday.

I also want more Defense (with another TE !) but the price has now gone up. Just saying.
 
Defense! We haven't had one in over 10 years.
 
Need another TE, SS like Harrison and another key pass rusher. We are close, just need a couple more pieces and some luck and we will be fine.
 
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