We NEED Jeff Garcia

[PatsWickedPissah]

Fans are allowed to be emotional after a horrible game. That's why we come to this site. Leave it to the coaches and front office to make decisions without figuring in the emotion. I think the point is not that Cassel lost the game, but he was certainly one of the key contributors. He was put in some pretty decent situations today (ball at 50 yard line etc) and was not able to make any plays. And in the end, BB always says that it comes down to making plays. And no, he does not play defense, and I agree that the defense was awful today.

However, Cassel has not given us much to be confident about so far. He had a bad preseason. Many felt he should be cut. He played decently last game. This team is going to need a QB who can makes plays every now and then. Maybe that person will end up being Cassel. But, you certainly cannot blame someone for wanting a Garcia trade. Garcia is a proven, solid QB in this league. Cassel is far from it and he made some absolutely terrible throws today. Trading for Garcia should be an option they are at least looking at. I don't see how the idea is so ridiculous.

BB must think it is ridiculous. I certainly do.

 

[Deus Irae]

Right, because nothing I've said is reasonable at all since I have suggestions other than what BB has done. Some of you guys act like everything he does is completely beyond reproach or infallible.

Well, this stuff is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You've combined rational discussion with completely missing the obvious.

1) By making Nick Kaczur join the DEA full time. Seriously, you're right that the line has let him down a lot. I've been curious how we'd be doing so far if Brady was in, there have been a couple sacks that didn't even give Cassel a chance.

This is a perfectly rational, sensible comment, and poor line play clearly has had an impact upon the team. Quarterbacks starting their 2nd NFL game need more time to make throws, not less, and the offensive line is not giving it.

2) Well, do you mean why aren't the receivers getting open? Because honestly, Cassel isn't doing them many favours with the balls he's throwing. Welker has done well with what he's been given.

Welker's getting open quickly and Cassel's getting him the ball. He was 10th in the NFL in receptions coming into this week and had another 6 catches today. Perhaps there's a correlation here that you're overlooking?

3) That's what happens when you cut Kyle Brady and don't replace him properly.

Kyle Brady was a disappointment last season, which is why he's not back. This team hasn't had a truly quality blocker at tight end since Graham moved on.

 

[CheerforTom]

Well, this stuff is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You've combined rational discussion with completely missing the obvious.



This is a perfectly rational, sensible comment, and poor line play clearly has had an impact upon the team. Quarterbacks starting their 2nd NFL game need more time to make throws, not less, and the offensive line is not giving it.



Welker's getting open quickly and Cassel's getting him the ball. He was 10th in the NFL in receptions coming into this week and had another 6 catches today. Perhaps there's a correlation here that you're overlooking?

What's the obvious correlation that I'm missing? That Cassel is consistently getting Welker the ball?

Also, are you aware someone can be rational and sensible without agreeing with every word you say?

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I'm not ready to give up on Cassel just yet, but I don't know why we don't get Garcia at least for some depth at the position. We don't have a single active QB that started a game before 7 days ago.

 

[Deus Irae]

What's the obvious correlation that I'm missing? That Cassel is consistently getting Welker the ball?

Bad line play + a lack of open receivers = struggles for any inexperienced quarterback.

Open receiver + Cassel + sufficient time = completions

Also, are you aware someone can be rational and sensible without agreeing with every word you say?

Yes.

 

[CheerforTom]

Bad line play + a lack of open receivers = struggles for any inexperienced quarterback.

Very true.

Open receiver + Cassel + sufficient time = completions

To a degree. I mean, open receiver + sufficient time + ME = completions. A good QB needs to be able to use the time he's given, Cassel shouldn't need 2007-like protection to complete a pass.

There was at least one 3rd and long where Moss was open, Cassel wasn't pressured and the ball was still thrown off target out of bounds. It isn't like Cassel was running for his life on every dropback.

 

[Deus Irae]

To a degree. I mean, open receiver + sufficient time + ME = completions. A good QB needs to be able to use the time he's given, Cassel shouldn't need 2007-like protection to complete a pass.

And exactly what level of protection do you think he got in this game? Pylons could have worked just as effectively on a lot of plays.

There was at least one 3rd and long where Moss was open, Cassel wasn't pressured and the ball was still thrown off target out of bounds. It isn't like Cassel was running for his life on every dropback.

Cassel was 19 for 31. That means that despite all the wailing, Cassel only threw 12 incompletions. Cassel had better than a 60% completion rate despite the crap ass job performed by the surrounding cast. It's not as if Tom Brady never made an errant pass. Cassel is 48 of 72 so far this season, so it's not as if he's incapable of hitting open receivers at an NFL percentage. The question about his accuracy won't really be known until the line starts blocking long enough for Cassel to be able to look downfield and try enough deeper passes to give us a basis for fair evaluation, but he's clearly got the ability to hit the short routes.

 

[CheerforTom]

Cassel was 19 for 31. That means that despite all the wailing, Cassel only threw 12 incompletions. Cassel had better than a 65% completion rate despite the crap ass job performed by the surrounding cast. It's not as if Tom Brady never made an errant pass. Cassel is 48 of 72 so far this season, so it's not as if he's incapable of hitting open receivers at an NFL percentage. The question about his accuracy won't really be known until the line starts blocking long enough for Cassel to be able to look downfield and try deeper passes, but he's clearly got the ability to hit the short routes.

That's a surprising stat. I still think that the passes that Cassel missed were the important ones (which led to all the failed third downs) but you make a good case for having hope in him. The fact is time will tell since I don't think he's coming out anytime soon.

We seem to agree that the line isn't giving him a great chance to show what he can do. I also wish the playcalling would change to let him stretch the field considering his best play as a Patriot was a 40 yard launch.

See what happens when you talk to me like a person instead of just assuming I'm a moron?

 

[Deus Irae]

That's a surprising stat. I still think that the passes that Cassel missed were the important ones (which led to all the failed third downs) but you make a good case for having hope in him. The fact is time will tell since I don't think he's coming out anytime soon.

We seem to agree that the line isn't giving him a great chance to show what he can do. I also wish the playcalling would change to let him stretch the field considering his best play as a Patriot was a 40 yard launch.

See what happens when you talk to me like a person instead of just assuming I'm a moron?

For the record, I didn't assume you were a moron. I just read your posts as being irrational. Rational criticism is all I ask. I'm sorry if you feel I misread your posts which led me to respond to you, and I'm even more sorry if I really did misread them.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That's a surprising stat. I still think that the passes that Cassel missed were the important ones (which led to all the failed third downs) but you make a good case for having hope in him. The fact is time will tell since I don't think he's coming out anytime soon.

We seem to agree that the line isn't giving him a great chance to show what he can do. I also wish the playcalling would change to let him stretch the field considering his best play as a Patriot was a 40 yard launch.

See what happens when you talk to me like a person instead of just assuming I'm a moron?

Don't flatter yourself...nothing happened except you replied like an adult, albeit one who still shows little appreciation for or understanding of how the game is played.

 

[CheerforTom]

Don't flatter yourself...nothing happened except you replied like an adult, albeit one who still shows little appreciation for or understanding of how the game is played.

Wow, that was both unnecessary and mean. That one statement means I have no appreciation or understanding for the game? Maybe if you feel like I don't understand the game you can explain it to me? Deus was civil and rational, you're just a ****. What exactly is happening to this board that guys like you are the senior posters?

 

[Brady to Brown]

Wow, that was both unnecessary and mean. That one statement means I have no appreciation or understanding for the game? Maybe if you feel like I don't understand the game you can explain it to me? Deus was civil and rational, you're just a ****. What exactly is happening to this board that guys like you are the senior posters?

He is a better fan than you. Once you understand that everything will be fine.

There are about 7 - 9 "better fans" on this site, they ruin the entire board.

 

[MassPats38]

Who says the QB sets the tone of the game? As an FYI, offense and defense are competing units with individual captains. While the defense may cheer for the offense during the game, Brady or another QB has about zero to do with firing that unit up. Throw a complete defensive failure at a QB starting his second game and what type of outcome would you expect?

Fans would love to see Cassel do well, but do not think for one moment they would mourn his disappearance if a better option was presented. If there are hostile responses to a post like "we NEED Jeff Garcia," it is because the reasons against it were discussed in the "we NEED Daunte Culpepper" threads ad nauseam.

The Pats do not run a West Coast offense and tend to be run first (excluding last year). Garcia has played on predominantly west coast teams. The reason Cassel is a better choice is the Pats run timing routes and a fairly complex offensive scheme that do not work well with the sort of improvisation that a scrambling QB provides. It is also not a simple offense, so 70% gets tossed to bring in a new QB. Add Garcia's apparent personality glitches to the mix(from reports he does not sound to be a beloved fixture in any locker room, which does not add to team cohesiveness and explains why he has had such a difficult time staying on teams for any length of time), then we may have disharmony issues to go with on the field woes.

Belichick makes cold, calculating decisions. If you do not accept that proposition, ask why our beloved kicker and Super Bowl hero was allowed to walk. I would take Ghost over Vina-scary in a heartbeat now, so Belichick made the right call there.

If Belichick thought a better QB option was out there for this offensive system, I have complete faith in his ability to make that decision. The game is not pitch and catch, so simply bringing in a QB showing better statistics from different systems does not equate to a better QB in this system. Again, it is not Madden NFL so you do not simply plug a QB's ability averages into a new system and seamlessly transition an offense to a new QB. The question is who gives the Patriots the best chance to win? Cassel is not Brady, but the hope is his performance improves as he gets more comfortable in the starting role. Given it is his second start and first loss, his defenders are likely saying give him a little time to develop rather than adding a new problem to the mix.

 

[jeffbiologist]

Back on topic, one doesnt necessarily have to do with the other.
First, the lack of a running game today let the pass rush of the Phins pin their ears back and rush Cassel, who simply wasnt ready for that kind of pressure. NO, he didnt cost us the game, but he certainly COULD HAVE.

That said, there is a proven vet QB out there who would likely not cost too much and his experience could only improve the depth at the position for later in the year. There has to be a realization that it does take time to learn the playbook so that if ANY move is to be done better sooner than later. If MC goes 4-4 in the next 8 games it could be too late to change to make the playoffs...impossible if the guy isnt already on the roster. If MC continues to improve then he keeps the job, but as the games get more crucial, the weather gets colder etc....experience at the QB position is invaluable.
I HATE comparisons to baseball, but there is a reason they sit rookies in the playoffs and trade for journeyman pitchers who have seen the bright lights before.
To make such a trade what would the pats be "risking"?? Well, my bet is he could be had for a 3rd rd pick. We have 2 2nds and should have 2 3rds(A.Samuel). With so many rookies making the team this year, its going to be tough to figure at least 5 rookies making the team next year. Better perspective, recent 3rd rd picks(Crable-hasnt dressed, Thomas-backup TE, OC-3rd string QB, Kazcur--starting RT--for how much longer??). So, having some experience at QB on the bench as the playoffs approach cant be a bad thing. If Cassel completely ****s the bed we can still have a shot at the playoffs. With so many quality vets on the team we owe it to them to improve the team at every opportunity. Our "dynasty" is officially over, to get back to where we can even talk about it again we have to win alot more games. This year, not next.

 

[muzz]

As much as I think Cassel is a weak and pathetic QB, NOONE will survive with that sieve they call an OL over in Foxboro.

I don't care who they bring in, noone will succeed with that crew allowing guys to just run straight to the QB.

I am NOT giving Cassel a pass, I think he is weak regardless....

 

[MassPats38]

So you believe Garcia, Captain Humility, will simply park himself behind Cassel and accept his role? That sounds to be part of his issue in Tampa Bay. QBs should not be in public battles with their head coach, so how would the Patriots present a different situation? He would also know this is a one-year gig, so if he does not get on the field he hurts his chances for a big contract. I would not expect "team first" to be his motto.

The roster spots are limited, so the Pats would have to carry 3 QBs on the roster (our #2 would get grabbed and not make it to the practice squad for future activation). Who gets the axe while he learns the job? I do not disagree with the concept of keeping a veteran QB around who might learn the system and play better down the road, but I cannot think of a veteran who could do so without causing disruption. If you think today was bad, give up some defensive TDs and keep the offense out there to offer up more. At least the defense will look good statistically if the offense keeps the opposition's offense off the field.

That veteran would not get the practice reps of the starter, and the starter would probably have issues knowing a veteran has been added to the roster to train up for when he fails. That wouldn't be the problem of an over-sensitive starter. It would be a problem of a head coach's lack of confidence in the starter's ability, which is usually the final step before complete failure. If you want to force a change, for better or worse, that is usually a good way to accomplish it.

 

[primetime]

So you believe Garcia, Captain Humility, will simply park himself behind Cassel and accept his role?

Cassel is awful. He did not look particularly good against the Jets and Chiefs and he looked positively horrendous today against the Dolphins. Those are three of the worst teams in the league. When the team starts playing the Chargers and Colts, do you think he'll be able to move the ball? He misses his target by about 10 feet on any given pass and has zero touch. For a supposedly mobile guy he has no pocket presence and looks more statuesque than Bledsoe.

If the team trades for Garcia, an established starter who made the Pro Bowl last season, Garcia starts. Belichick might be loyal to Cassel, having developed him for years, but he isn't stupid. Cassel is not Tom Brady and he never will be - all you need is a one year caretaker to pave the way for Tom to come back.

I'd rather have Garcia than Cassel in that spot.

 

[Willie Andrews23]

Have to say I agree. Are we all forgetting how many people wanted Cassel released after his horrible preseason?
I am not saying today was totally his fault, but a better QB would have managed the game better and thus the fins have less chances to establish the run and are possibly forced into mistakes.
Matt's not the guy, sorry to say.

 

[mgcolby]

We will go 5-11 with Matt Cassel.

We just got blown out by the worst team in football at home. Steelers lost today, Colts last today. Yeah? So what, we won't even have to be worrying about them at the bottom of our division this year.

If Matt Cassel remains the starter for this team, we will not win more than 5 games. Let's dink and dunk to set up 3rd and 5's and then watch Cassel overthrow his target all season.

Honestly, the Chicago Bears are a more intimating offense right now. That is said with no sarcasm whatsoever. This offense provokes no fear whatsoever.

BB of course will remain stubborn though and not bench Cassel until it's too late. It's a real shame this season is going to become a waste all because of one injury. This team won 18 god damn games last year, not 5. You don't throw in a developmental QB project when you're a Super Bowl team who just lost their MVP QB.

You're a ******* moron!

Would Garcia put up 41 points today? :banned:

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

You're a ******* moron!

Would Garcia put up 41 points today? :banned:

Isnt it funny how noone seems to remember the dink, and dunk offense of 2001. I think the Pats even won a superbowl with that offense.