Was Pete Carroll that bad of a coach with the Patriots?

[Froob]

My dad used to fly with a guy at FedEx who punted for the pats under Caroll for a little while(can't remember his name). Said Caroll was a really nice guy but, kind of a pushover.

 

[1960Pats]

At the end, the Parcels way was what this team was built off of. They needed a Parcels type guy to get it. And that was Belichick.

I see a few fans who want to somehow credit Bill Parcells for this current team's success. I would like someone to explain to me the logic behind that thinking.
Tuna Crap himself complained about not being able pick the players. So we know he can't take credit or blame for that.
The Pats were just as successful before he arrived (lost in a SB) as they were when he was here, and it wasn't until after he left and Belichick took over for Carroll, that the Pats became a dynasty.
Parcells never won squat without Belichick.
Belichick has set record for winning without Parcells.

 

[AzorianPats]

I see a few fans who want to somehow credit Bill Parcells for this current is eam's success. I would like someone to explain to me the logic behind that thinking.
Tuna Crap himself complained about not being able pick the players. So we know he can't take credit or blame for that.
The Pats were just as successful before he arrived (lost in a SB) as they were when he was here, and it wasn't until after he left and Belichick took over for Carroll, that the Pats became a dynasty.
Parcells never won squat without Belichick.
Belichick has set record for winning without Parcells.

Couple of things....

1. This isn't a discussion of P arcells vs Belichick. Belichick the GOAT of coaching, but Parcells is no slouch. He along with Kraft and Bledsoe turned this franchise from a laughingstock to a respectable organization. He deserves to be in the Patriots HOF

2. He doesn't get credit for this Patriots team, but those 3 championships, he sure does. Troy Brown, McGinest, Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Law, Milloy, Vinateiri, those were his guys.

3. His hissy fit bout not picking the groceries was the Terry Glenn pick. He wanted a d linemen and he was mad that he got overturned.

 

[1960Pats]

Couple of things....

1. This isn't a discussion of P arcells vs Belichick. Belichick the GOAT of coaching, but Parcells is no slouch. He along with Kraft and Bledsoe turned this franchise from a laughingstock to a respectable organization. He deserves to be in the Patriots HOF

2. He doesn't get credit for this Patriots team, but those 3 championships, he sure does. Troy Brown, McGinest, Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Law, Milloy, Vinateiri, those were his guys.

3. His hissy fit bout not picking the groceries was the Terry Glenn pick. He wanted a d linemen and he was mad that he got overturned.

Not trying to start anything, but these words of yours are what led to the Parcells/Belichick shift from Pete Carroll ---- At the end, the Parcels way was what this team was built off of. They needed a Parcels type guy to get it. And that was Belichick.

1) The Pats were not a laughingstock in the 80's, or in the 90's under Carroll.
2-3) Tuna can't complain about not having control and then get credit for the good players. If you think he was only referring to the Terry Glenn pick then it was because he and his buddies in the media want you to believe it.

The day he gets elected into the NEP HOF will be the day I burn everything I own with a Pats logo.

As for Carroll, he stunk as a HC back then but has obviously become better over the years. He didn't pick the players either when he was here so it's hard to blame/credit him for any of the personnel issues.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I see a few fans who want to somehow credit Bill Parcells for this current team's success. I would like someone to explain to me the logic behind that thinking.
Tuna Crap himself complained about not being able pick the players. So we know he can't take credit or blame for that.
The Pats were just as successful before he arrived (lost in a SB) as they were when he was here, and it wasn't until after he left and Belichick took over for Carroll, that the Pats became a dynasty.
Parcells never won squat without Belichick.
Belichick has set record for winning without Parcells.

The only explanation that I've seen that made any sense: Parcells was responsible for McGinest, Law, Milloy, Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Adam Vinatieri, and Troy Brown.

Even that explanation largely dismisses how young those guys were for the most part, and how much Belichick coached them up from 2001-2004.

 

[AzorianPats]

Not trying to start anything, but these words of yours are what led to the Parcells/Belichick shift from Pete Carroll ---- At the end, the Parcels way was what this team was built off of. They needed a Parcels type guy to get it. And that was Belichick.

1) The Pats were not a laughingstock in the 80's, or in the 90's under Carroll.
2-3) Tuna can't complain about not having control and then get credit for the good players. If you think he was only referring to the Terry Glenn pick then it was because he and his buddies in the media want you to believe it.

The day he gets elected into the NEP HOF will be the day I burn everything I own with a Pats logo.

As for Carroll, he stunk as a HC back then but has obviously become better over the years. He didn't pick the players either when he was here so it's hard to blame/credit him for any of the personnel issues.

So Bobby Grier was a great gm under Parcells, but sucked under Carrol?

Early 90's we were a laughingstock.....

 

[AzorianPats]

The only explanation that I've seen that made any sense: Parcells was responsibl for McGinest, Law, Milloy, Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Adam Vinatieri, and Troy Brown.

Even that explanation largely dismisses how young those guys were for the most part, and how much Belichick coached them up from 2001-2004.

Those guys also lasted the Carroll years.

I think BB the greatest, but I don't see any harm in giving credit to Parcells for bringing those guys in. Like it or not, Tuna had his finger prints on those SB teams.

Regarding the connection. BB apart of that coachingtree. Besides their relationship with the media, those 2 have a lot in common coaching wise

 

[patriot1136]

Can someone please explain this Tebucky Jones thing to me?

 

[Joker]

Bob Kraft went to Syracuse to watch him work out pre-draft...Bob Kraft got this idea from another owner/pal...Jerry Jones. Bob Kraft does not do this or any other meddling anymore.

 

[sb1]

Off topic but I don't want Parcells anywhere near the Patriots HOF.

I'll never forgive the guy for the stunt he pulled bailing on his Super Bowl team the way he did. The coaching in that game was curiously awful, and I still wonder to this day whether that was a result of just a bad day at the office or something a lot more diabolical than that. I wouldn't put anything past his ego.

 

[Uncle Rico]

Bob Kraft went to Syracuse to watch him work out pre-draft...Bob Kraft got this idea from another owner/pal...Jerry Jones. Bob Kraft does not do this or any other meddling anymore.

Ah, yes, right, good memory. Another reminder that people do learn and grow.

 

[SB39]

Off topic but I don't want Parcells anywhere near the Patriots HOF.

I'll never forgive the guy for the stunt he pulled bailing on his Super Bowl team the way he did. The coaching in that game was curiously awful, and I still wonder to this day whether that was a result of just a bad day at the office or something a lot more diabolical than that. I wouldn't put anything past his ego.

If by "diabolical" you mean he, like, deliberately threw the game, then no I do not believe that for a single second.

I think he was simply a guy unhappy in his current situation, he already had one foot out the door (he was in contact with Hempstead, NY, when he was in N.O. is the days leading up to the game) and he simply did not give the preparation and focus on the game that he should have.

I lost a lot of respect for him that week because he gave the Patriots about half of his attention on the eve of The Super Bowl. But I don't think he deliberately lost. He just didn't prepare.

 

[SB39]

1) The Pats were not a laughingstock in the 80's, or in the 90's under Carroll.

The Patriots of the late 80's and early 90's (pre-Parcells) were the laughingstock of the league. They had a high school caliber stadium, an owner desperate to pick up and move the team to St. Louis, and Zeke Mowatt was showing off his Patriot Missile to Lisa Olsen.

They were arguably the worst run team in the league, they were ridiculed from all sides, and home games would regularly be played before 35,000 empty seats (or, I should say, empty aluminum benches).

Bill Parcells isn't exactly my favorite guy in football, but I recognize that he brought a tremendous amount of cred to the organization when he arrived.

 

[mgteich]

Carroll worked under one of the worst GM's in football and certainly had no say in personnel decisions. Players knew that they could always go around Carroll. He didn't oick any of them.

Obviously, a coach who game in after Parcells and before Belichick is going to be a poor coach by comparison, especially a young Carroll.

AND YET

HOW HORRIBLE WAS HIS RECORD?
1997 won the East and lost in the divisional round
1998 lost in the wild card round
1999 The lack of personnel finally caught up. The team was 8-8.

The pre-Parcells patriots were usually considerably worse than this except for a one brief stint in the 70's.

BOTTOM LINE
This was not a bad record for a young coach.
======================
Belichick was brought in. He could make personnel decisions and clean up Grier's mess. He had a 3-5 year plan to improve the team. The quality of the personnel was not great in his first three years (2000-2002). Of course, we had the miracle that was 2001, between two seasons where we were out of the playoffs. We all know what happened then. By 2004, we had one of the best teams in the history of the NFL.

 

[Joker]

Bobby Grier was VP of player development...he was NEVER the general manager of the NEP

 

[mgteich]

This is a technicality and you know it.

The point is that Grier bought the groceries (as Parcells put) and made major personnel decisions.

Bobby Grier was VP of player development...he was NEVER the general manager of the NEP

 

[Joker]

It's not a technicality, it's the reality. Grier was responsible for funneling the players to Carroll. GM duties were handled by Vice President Jonathan Kraft and
Vice President of Business Operations Andy Wasynczuk at that time. You just bristle when anyone makes any slight correction to your posts, don't you...

 

[SB39]

It's not a technicality, it's the reality. Grier was responsible for funneling the players to Carroll. GM duties were handled by Vice President Jonathan Kraft and
Vice President of Business Operations Andy Wasynczuk at that time. You just bristle when anyone makes any slight correction to your posts, don't you...

"Hi kettle? This is the pot calling....."

 

[mgteich]

Not me.

Jonathan and Andy had their jobs. Grier had his. The issue that we are discussing has nothing to do with who had what titles. I brought up the point that Grier failed in bringing in players. Your response was that I got his title wrong.

Apparently, you are here for points. Do you keep a log?

Most of us want to discuss the issues. The issue here is how good a coach Carroll was for us, or how bad. You are free to start a new thread on what titles everyone had at them time.

It's not a technicality, it's the reality. Grier was responsible for funneling the players to Carroll. GM duties were handled by Vice President Jonathan Kraft and
Vice President of Business Operations Andy Wasynczuk at that time. You just bristle when anyone makes any slight correction to your posts, don't you...

 

[sb1]

If by "diabolical" you mean he, like, deliberately threw the game, then no I do not believe that for a single second.

I think he was simply a guy unhappy in his current situation, he already had one foot out the door (he was in contact with Hempstead, NY, when he was in N.O. is the days leading up to the game) and he simply did not give the preparation and focus on the game that he should have.

I lost a lot of respect for him that week because he gave the Patriots about half of his attention on the eve of The Super Bowl. But I don't think he deliberately lost. He just didn't prepare.

Obviously only he knows whether he did throw the game or not...just saying I wouldn't put it past his ego at all to do that just to spite Kraft.

At least that would be a logical explanation for some of the bizarre coaching decisions that we saw before and during that game. Like deactivating Troy Brown and then getting Vinatieri to kick to Desmond Howard again and again. That worked out well. And the head scratching in game substitution of the double team that was erasing Reggie White through 30 minutes- and giving Max Lane that responsibility instead. You really do have to wonder what he was thinking. :bricks: