Welcome to PatsFans.com

Was Pete Carroll that bad of a coach with the Patriots?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by sb1, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. sb1

    sb1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,914
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Obviously the Pats did quite well for themselves in the coaching department after PC left but was Pete that bad? I don't think he was...I know a lot of people would say he was soft when he was here but it's hard for me to blame the Pats late 90's decline on him rather than the catastrophic draft misses that hurt the roster.

    He did win the AFC East once, then made the playoffs as a WC (Scott Zolak started the playoff game that year and the results were predictable) and would have make it a third time if the team didn't stumble after a hot start...

    Then again, I can't picture say, Brady diving from a stage and him and Mankins in a mosh pit these days with the coach we have now.
  2. kennyb

    kennyb Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,087
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Good guy. My impression is his game planning genius was not fully developed back then. Maybe a little immature and not respected by the team.

    He lived in nearby Medfield I think.
  3. primetime

    primetime Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2005
    Messages:
    4,853
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 2 / -3

    He was a good coach. They made the playoffs every year. I don't think he was as good a coach as he is now, though.

    The main issue was that he wasn't given control over personnel. Bobby Grier was probably the worst GM in the history of the league. Plus Carroll had to deal with personnel issues that he could not control - losing a Hall of Fame running back in his prime to an obnoxious offer sheet from a hated rival and then his Rookie of the Year replacement to a freak beach football accident.

    Luckily they learned their lesson, and gave Belichick the freedom to build the team he wanted.
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,315
    Likes Received:
    19
    Ratings:
    +19 / 0 / -0

    I think he was a good coach, but was not ready for the Boston Sports Market and its cadre of detractors who rule the press....

    What I did not like about him, was his rather sophomoric view of how the NFL worked... "We gotta get these guys pumped and jacked for this game".

    Also the "wisdom" or lack thereof of Bobby Grier worked against him...
  5. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    16,254
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    I think the front office was atrocious at the time and undermined Carroll's authority (Kraft has all but admitted this). Even on top of that, though, I think it takes a particular type of situation for Carroll to be a winning coach, and what he has in Seattle is ideal for him. He struck gold on a third round QB who's still on his rookie contract, and has used the additional salary cap space that that grants him by adeptly picking a bunch of players that have been on his radar for recruiting purposes since they were in high school, then supplementing them with FAs that everyone knows is good but most teams can't afford.

    It will be very interesting to see if he can maintain success once Wilson and Sherman get their huge second contracts and the college ranks are filled with guys that he never recruited or coached against. The Harvin trade is really going to hurt them in accelerating them to this point.
  6. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    16,128
    Likes Received:
    36
    Ratings:
    +56 / 2 / -2

    a good coach...right...."just gotta clean some things up...clean some things up"....yeah, Pete the "Cleaner"...handed a Super Bowl roster and ran it downhill.Lost twice to the Jets his 2nd season, finished 9-7, after 10-6 his first year with a Super Bowl team that had gone 11-5...and then 8-8 his final pathetic season as head clown.

    but yeah, let's all just lust after Carroll and slam the current staff by REINVENTING HISTORY. NO, he was NOT a good head coach here....PERIOD.

    His third season, coming out of a bye week, we faced the NY Jets AT HOME. Lost 24-17. That was game 9 I think of that season...didn't matter...season OVER. They went 8-8. Super Bowl to 8-8 in three years with Bruschi and Law and Bledsoe and...well....a blind squirrel moron can see the picture.

    Personally, there was a game halfway or more through his second season here where the Pats came out after halftime and on their 1st drive had THREE consecutive too many men on the field penalties. THREE IN A ROW. I was there with a whole troop of hard core lifelong Patriots fans...THAT day was the day he lost our confidence. NOBODY has ever coached so ineptly.

    But Petey the Cleaner cleaned his act up and now he's in the Super Bowl...so go right ahead and reinvent history and post yet more chicken little riddled idiocies about his coaching stint here.
  7. primetime

    primetime Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2005
    Messages:
    4,853
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 2 / -3

    The Super Bowl argument isn't fair - for one, the Patriots got extremely lucky the Jaguars upset the Broncos as they were in no way the best team in the AFC that season.

    And his hands were tied with terrible personnel decisions. In that 1999 season, the team was rolling with Terry Allen in the backfield. After Law and Milloy, the defensive backfield was Chris Carter, Steve Israel, and Kato Serwanga. Heath Irwin, Todd Rucci, and Zefross Moss were on the offensive line. Ben Coates was fading fast.
  8. Ivan

    Ivan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2011
    Messages:
    5,203
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +22 / 4 / -4

    Following Parcell's is a tough task for any coach and given that and the fact that the Kraft's had made it clear that he wasn't making the personel decisions he really had no authority, and football coaches don't do well without it. He's a smart defensive coordinator and a decent coach. He wasn't as bad as portrayed but even with this Super Bowl appearance isn't a great coach. Good guy, good coach.
  9. everlong

    everlong Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2007
    Messages:
    5,697
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +33 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    When you're given the nickname the poodle by the local media that sums up your tenure as a head coach in that town. I'm not taking anything away from what he's done in Seattle but he was a failure here.
  10. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    15,910
    Likes Received:
    38
    Ratings:
    +53 / 0 / -0

    #61 Jersey

    That season looked so promising. The Pats started out 4-0 then went 6-2, and proceeded to tank after the bye.

    I have real mixed feelings about Pete's tenure here. I actually liked his "pumped and jacked" routine, and the way he went toe-to-toe with Borges. I also agree with those who don't think he got the front-office support he needed. But it could also be that he just needed time to come into his own, which appears to be the case now in Seattle.
  11. BrickPat

    BrickPat Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2010
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    It was bad timing and PC being too green. As others have said a meddling incompetent Greer only made it worse. PC deserves a lot of praise because he personally had the say in drafting Russell even though Flynn was signed to a big money contract and had no qualms about cutting Flynn thereafter. He also drafted a lot of quality players on defense.

    If BB retires tomorrow I'd much rather have PC than Daniels take his place.
  12. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,202
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    He had Parcell's players who weren't sold on his coaching style and didn't respect him IMO.
  13. ThatllMoveTheChains!!!

    ThatllMoveTheChains!!! Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,048
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Re: Was PC that bad of a coach with us?

    At the time he certainly was. However it's unfair to judge him based on his time here for obvious reasons, but it's just as unfair to judge him based on the current success in Seattle:

    Thomas - goes from 3.5M to 6M next season and then is UFA
    Sherman - UFA after next season
    Wagner - UFA in 2016
    Wright - UFA after next season
    Smith - UFA after next season
    Irvin - UFA in 2016
    Maxwell - UFA after next season
    Tate - UFA
    Baldwin - RFA
    Wilson - UFA in 2016
    Harvin - 4.9M to 13.4M next season and ~12M per after that through 2018

    Success in the NFL is difficult no matter what, but having 11 guys that are going to cost over 70M in the near future currently costing you ~20M helps. How Seattle handles the roster moves that are going to be necessary by 2016 will be how I judge PC as a coach.
  14. AzorianPats

    AzorianPats Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    I don't think PC is as bad as his haters made/make him out to be, but he. ef was never going to be the saviour to this franchise.

    He did have a raw deal here. He had no say in personal He watched Curtis Martin go to our biggest rivals, Coates, Bledsoe, Slade all those guys either got old, or their play fell offreal fast. I do remember our defense being awesome during his time here though.

    With that, he took over a team that was coached by a strong persona. I don't think his personality ever matched the type of team Parcels built. Players knew he was never in charge, and although, he might have been well liked, he was never gonna win that team over.

    He built a team in Seattle that fits his philosophy on and off the field. It's working for him their, but it was never gonna work here. Parcells and BB command a room. It might not be as cool as Pete, but they are much more respected. They had the resume to back it up. Carrol always wanted to be one of the guys.

    At the end, the Parcels way was what this team was built off of. They needed a Parcels type guy to get it. And that was Belichick.
  15. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    29,360
    Likes Received:
    46
    Ratings:
    +59 / 1 / -0

    Anyone who remembers all the time outs they had to blow because they could never get the call in on time and all the horrendous time management they had under Carroll when he was here would not say he was a good head coach here. He was mediocre.

    Also, I don't think the Patriots as constituted in the late 90s were suited for the rah! rah! attitude of Carroll. The core of that group (Bruschi, McGinest, Law, Milloy, etc.) were more of a take care of business type of crowd.

    He has become a far better coach since the late 90s. The Pete Carroll of the late 90s would not be in the Super Bowl right now. Over a decade of more experience has made him a far better coach than the guy who coached the Patriots in the late 90s.
  16. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Messages:
    3,391
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    he likely didn't get smart overnight, but yes he was a pretty poor coach back then

    questionable play calls, mediocre game plans, poor clock management

    I think now he's more successful by focusing on what he is good at (player evaluation, using player's skills to their utmost in a specific scheme, player motivation) and relying more on good assistants to do the things that he is not so good at.

    You can't really be a Paul Brown or a Don Shula and do everything anymore. Even Bill Belichick seems to delegate more than he used to.
  17. BrickPat

    BrickPat Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2010
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Great points. I think that in time Carrol would've been similarly successful in NE if he had the decision making authority that he enjoys in Seattle. The guy has drafted quality personnel and arguably built the best D in the NFL.
  18. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    16,128
    Likes Received:
    36
    Ratings:
    +56 / 2 / -2

    all you Neville Chamberlain ball washers can wax poetic about your precious Petey all you want...it's your right as the kind of "fan" you are...but THAT is not the title of this thread and the answer to the question posed is "YES, hes was THAT BAD.PERIOD"...now you can what if and "goo gee gaa gaa!" give him all these benefits of the doubt you want but the FACT is, yes Grier was horrible, yes Carroll was limited in his control and YES, HE SUCKED AS A HEAD COACH here, When a team comes out after the half, three years into a coaching tenureship, and immediately has three 12 men on the field penalties to START A DRIVE ..THAT IS BAD COACHING!! krist, WTF does it take to get this revisionist Carroll love out of your heads.

    What the hell is the ultimate aim of all this adoration...what's next??.."WE SHOULD HAVE KEPT CARROLL...HE WOULD HAVE WON TWICE AS MANY SUPER BOWLS AS BELICHICK"?...is that the plan?...then blast this board with all these idiotic revisionist scenarios from YOUR perspective as an "authority"?
  19. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,772
    Likes Received:
    58
    Ratings:
    +81 / 3 / -1

    Disable Jersey

    Most of the players I've heard on this issue thought he was a lousy coach, and nothing from his tenure as the HC of the NYJ seems to run counter to that.

    He's had more than a decade to get better, since, and he's been fortunate enough to be able to take advantage of his knowledge of college players. It'll be interesting to see how his drafts fair starting in another year or so, when his inside draft information is no longer there.
  20. AzorianPats

    AzorianPats Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    As great of a defensive mind he was, offensively he wasn't as good !
  21. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Messages:
    3,391
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    Joker has had a LOT of caffeine today!

    youngsters, please stay off his lawn!
  22. italian pat patriot

    italian pat patriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    i have only good memories about his stay in NE
  23. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    16,128
    Likes Received:
    36
    Ratings:
    +56 / 2 / -2

    He had that tenure at USC to refine his PED strategy, a fact that doesn't seem to be finding any press this past week. I give him credit for having the guts to push that envelope. Plus, his increased knowledge base of the kind of college players that translate to the pros has become evident. The best thing he has going for him is his players buy into his leadership and play downhill most of the time, especially at home.

    One thing you won't see is any adjustments defensively against the Bronocs. Pete will play man even if they fall behind and Manning is tearing it apart. On offense, I'm hoping Lynch gets off and controls the game tempo. If Wilson is forced into a shootout with Manning, the Hawks lose, in my opinion.
  24. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    16,128
    Likes Received:
    36
    Ratings:
    +56 / 2 / -2

    yeah...I apologize for the rude remarks, Carroll's stint here was the death knell of my 20 + years of season ticket seats in Section 206. We were a dedicated, diehard, every game no matter what crew back then. Rough, tough, edgy Pats fans that would give you the shirt off their backs ,proverbially, as long as YOU hung in through thick or thin. I posted some of the memories from season's lost that still echo with the laughs and camaraderie. Sitting there soaked and frozen,voices hoarse, for every single agonizing minute of losses that would break most fanbases in half. Man, it was glorious.

    Carroll was an embarrassment to us. His whole aw shucks, surfer boy, laid back let's all sing kumbaya act wore off fast.He has found his niche in Seattle and I applaud him for that. He's a very good coach today. I just will never say he was anything other than a failure here.
  25. MassPats38

    MassPats38 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,973
    Likes Received:
    13
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    I think he was and is a mediocre to good coach in the NFL, who will ultimately see a career .500 win/loss mark. His personality works in the college ranks, but will not sustain in the pro ranks when a player's future does not turn on the relationship with the coach.

    I didn't love the guy or hate the guy here, but his tenure was a decline. In college, you recruit well and you tend to win. In the pros, you manage salaries and try to maintain the necessary talent to win. You also have to coach as you cannot put quality at every position on the field. His draft has helped him greatly, in that high risk picks have not come off the rails on him. I don't know if I've heard him characterized as a master game planner/strategist, and I doubt I will.

    The word I would choose to describe him is forgettable.
  26. RobAllan

    RobAllan Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Yes he was.
  27. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    5,377
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +18 / 1 / -0

    Great post!

    And, yes, anyone who doesn't kiss the ground in gratitude for BB as coach of the Patriots is beyond hope.

    For what it's worth, Carroll came across as a lightweight then, the little guy who was desperate to be "in" with the big kids. He just didn't exude the authority and vision needed. Now, though, I'm very happy for him. He's been successful without being -- unlike many successful coaches -- an arrogant, bullying jerk.
  28. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    29,360
    Likes Received:
    46
    Ratings:
    +59 / 1 / -0

    In fairness to Pete, he only coached one year with the Jets as head coach, but he did go 6-10 after a 6-5 start. So he wasn't anything remotely close to good.
  29. SB39

    SB39 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -1

    Carroll wasn't that bad, but he had the misfortune of being the guy that followed the legend, which you never want to be.

    Much like the Almighty Bill Belichick himself, Carroll is doing much better his 2nd time around (and I call it his "2nd time" because I refuse to count that 1 year as HC of the NYJ).
  30. Brady6

    Brady6 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +29 / 6 / -2

    #12 Jersey

    Not to undervalue Carroll but I think he receives credit for things that John Schneider has done.

    Since John Schneider became GM Seattle has drafted:
    • Russell Wilson
    • Richard Sherman
    • Bobby Wagner
    • Bruce Irvin
    • Jeremy Lane
    • James Carpenter
    • Byron Maxwell
    • K. J. Wright
    • Russell Okung
    • Earl Thomas
    • Walter Thurmond III
    • Golden Tate
    Signed/Acquired via Trade:
    • Marshawn Lynch
    • Brandon Browner
    • Michael Bennett
    • Cliff Avril
    • D. Baldwin
    • Percy Harvin
    • Chris Clemons
    Pete Carroll praises John Schneider for drafting Russell Wilson | ProFootballTalk

    Carroll has done a great job but his GM gave him the pieces, if I remember the biggest issue with Carroll was his personnel decisions during his tenure here.

Share This Page