Van Noy, McClellin. Did BB turn it around?

[Kontradiction]

McClellin has 13 tackles and a sack over the past 3 games. I agree about Van Noy but McClellin has been just as productive over the last 3 games as Van Noy. BB switched him to primary off-the-line lb with High last 3 games and that has made a world of diffference. Those 2 guys plus the cb rotation of butler rowe ryan has really settled this D. Hopefully Rowe can fully recover from that hammy. Pats are gonna need the D monday night-not that Ravens O is awesome-but they have arguably the best D in the nfl and TB12 is not going to be able to tear them apart, so the D needs to help out.

This is part of the example of why stats need context behind them. McClellin's sack wasn't a result of an effective pass rush, it was a result of good coverage. Outside of that, watch him against the run. He gets moved relatively easily. Van Noy has been the more impressive pick-up of the two. McClellin still has a ways to go.

 

[shmessy]

Big Bang Clock had to go and, apparently Sanders too, leaving the team grasping at straws to find DBs. [Love him but, please let me live my life without having to see Slater playing safety again, or that CB Moulden].

Whoa on Sanders.

Cutting James Sanders, to me, was perhaps the worst and costliest personnel move by BB in his entire tenure with the Patriots. Sanders was champion material on the field and in the lockerroom and he didn't cost much. BB praised his smarts, work ethic and champion quality - - famously on a mic'd up moment after Sanders picked off Peyton Manning down the stretch of a tight game.

Rodney Harrison (who almost never said anything nice about younger players) spent half of his retirement press conference effusively praising Sanders.

I will never understand that dumb move by BB that cost this franchise for a fewyears of watching Ihedigbo, Sergio Brown and the first iteration of Pat Chung.

BB is great and usually makes great moves, but he's ahad a few lulus that made exactly zero sense.

 

[shmessy]

I agree with most of that. But I believe you're wrong about sheard. Everything I've heard from credible people like Reiss is sheard has worked very hard and has never been any type of attitude problem or cancer.(unlike Collins) They said he was benched purely on performance. He never sulked. He continued working hard in practice got his job back and played very well. He's the best edge player Pats have, so they need him to

Sheard has been quiet, hard working and diligent. He made no fuss when he was very publicly benched (healthy scratch). Not only that, but he was a standup guy about it and the week after patiently and respectfully took reporters questions in front of his locker for Patriots.com. I was amazed at how well he handled himself in that situation. Most players would have refused to speak or would not have been so well-controlled and self aware at that time.

That two week period and how Sheard reacted to it, to me, was his finest hour. That showed great character.

 

[RayClay]

Whoa on Sanders.

Cutting James Sanders, to me, was perhaps the worst and costliest personnel move by BB in his entire tenure with the Patriots. Sanders was champion material on the field and in the lockerroom and he didn't cost much. BB praised his smarts, work ethic and champion quality - - famously on a mic'd up moment after Sanders picked off Peyton Manning down the stretch of a tight game.

Rodney Harrison (who almost never said anything nice about younger players) spent half of his retirement press conference effusively praising Sanders.

I will never understand that dumb move by BB that cost this franchise for a fewyears of watching Ihedigbo, Sergio Brown and the first iteration of Pat Chung.

BB is great and usually makes great moves, but he's ahad a few lulus that made exactly zero sense.

Well, he cut him, which is why I said "apparently". You'll have to argue that one with BB next time you talk to him. I don't have a window to his thoughts.

 

[shmessy]

I still don't like the trade of Jones and Collins and I really don't want to trust this defense but its week 14 and they are raked #2 in points and 9th in yards so I have to just shut my mouth and injoy the ride

The Collins trade was just terrible relative value in return.

The Jones trade? I'm ok, given that it brought us our Logan Mankins 2.0 (Thuney) and our David Givens 2.0 (Mitchell) for the next 10 yrs.

Yup, I'm good with the Jones trade. I hope he does more like THAT.

On a scale of 1-10, BB was a 9.5 on the Jones trade and a 1.5 on the Collins trade

 

[n6249c]

Sheard has been quiet, hard working and diligent. He made no fuss when he was very publicly benched (healthy scratch). Not only that, but he was a standup guy about it and the week after patiently and respectfully took reporters questions in front of his locker for Patriots.com. I was amazed at how well he handled himself in that situation. Most players would have refused to speak or would not have been so well-controlled and self aware at that time.

That two week period and how Sheard reacted to it, to me, was his finest hour. That showed great character.

So far. Let's hope he continues to grow and has even more stellar moments. Perhaps under bright lights on a big stage this will prove good preparation.

 

[n6249c]

The Collins trade was just terrible value in return.

The Jones trade? I'm ok, given that it brought us our Logan Mankins 2.0 for the next 10 yrs.

Sometimes there is great positive value just in eliminating a negative. Even without adding anything else.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

McClellin still needs to improve quite a bit but Van Noy has been surprisingly solid thus far. He has a sack, an INT, and 9 tackles in three games. I saw in a Keyed article that he also has 10 pressures (though I'm not sure where he got that statistic from). Not too shabby. Hopefully he can keep it up.

I think Collins was traded because BB was confident that Van Noy can step up. He has replaced Collins nicely so far. I mean would Collins do any better? Maybe a little, but I am happy for now.

 

[shmessy]

Sometimes there is great positive value just in eliminating a negative. Even without adding anything else.

Just like a cut for nothing in return in the James Sanders situation?

It's important to get the best possible value in return for what you are getting rid of.

I find it hard to believe that what they got for Collins is the best possibility than if they actually shopped him to 31 teams.

 

[Kontradiction]

Just like a cut for nothing in return in the James Sanders situation?

It's important to get the best possible value in return for what you are getting rid of.

I find it hard to believe that what they got for Collins is the best possibility than if they actually shopped him to 31 teams.

The Sanders cut was one of the more low key bad moves that BB has made in his time here that nobody ever talks about. He wouldn't have turned that defense into a juggernaut by any stretch of the imagination but that defense also wouldn't have finished the season as the second worst pass defense of all time (at that point) either.

 

[RayClay]

Sometimes there is great positive value just in eliminating a negative. Even without adding anything else.

Yes. Not necessarily one player, but a team has to have winning chemistry.

 

[The Gr8est]

The Collins trade was just terrible relative value in return.

The Jones trade? I'm ok, given that it brought us our Logan Mankins 2.0 (Thuney) and our David Givens 2.0 (Mitchell) for the next 10 yrs.

Yup, I'm good with the Jones trade. I hope he does more like THAT.

On a scale of 1-10, BB was a 9.5 on the Jones trade and a 1.5 on the Collins trade

Who was offering more for Collins?

Apparently what you think Collins is worth is different from what other teams think.

 

[RayClay]

Just like a cut for nothing in return in the James Sanders situation?

It's important to get the best possible value in return for what you are getting rid of.

I find it hard to believe that what they got for Collins is the best possibility than if they actually shopped him to 31 teams.

I completely agreed on the Sanders move. I just don't think BB intentional moves a useful player when he already weakened the position, so I have to think there was a reason.

Even players who are disruptive have stayed on until he found a way to get rid of them.

Sanders was a head scratcher.

 

[shmessy]

The Sanders cut was one of the more low key bad moves that BB has made in his time here that nobody ever talks about. He wouldn't have turned that defense into a juggernaut by any stretch of the imagination but that defense also wouldn't have finished the season as the second worst pass defense of all time (at that point) either.

Yup, I wonder what the close-but-no-cigar endings of 2011, 2012 and 2013 would have looked like - - probably more confetti in at least one of 'em.

Gawd, I despise that inexplicable cut. Teams would have at least given the Pats value for a player like James Sanders. Never gonna happen, but I'd love to hear BB's take on that now if someone stuck a truth serum needle in him.

 

[shmessy]

Who was offering more for Collins?

Apparently what you think Collins is worth is different from what other teams think.

Apparently, you think they shopped him to all 31 teams.

This is a team that cut James Sanders and Lawyer Milloy for NOTHING in return. Do you automatically believe then that those players had no trade value whatsoever?

BB does inexplicable things sometimes. He is the greatest GM/Coach in NFL history. But that history includes a tendency for hastily shipping out players without getting market value in return. And while it did not cost them in 2003+, it certainly seemed to have in 2011, 2012 and 2013.

 

[RayClay]

Apparently, you think they shopped him to all 31 teams.

This is a team that cut James Sanders and Lawyer Milloy for NOTHING in return. Do you automatically believe then that those players had no trade value whatsoever?

BB does inexplicable things sometimes. He is the greatest GM/Coach in NFL history. But that history includes a tendency for hastily shipping out players without getting market value in return. And while it did not cost them in 2003+, it certainly seemed to have in 2011, 2012 and 2013.

They won the Super Bowl when they cut Milloy. That's value to me.

 

[shmessy]

I completely agreed on the Sanders move. I just don't think BB intentional moves a useful player when he already weakened the position, so I have to think there was a reason.

Even players who are disruptive have stayed on until he found a way to get rid of them.

Sanders was a head scratcher.

Once again, getting rid of a player I can understand. But when that player has value, get something in return!! Milloy and Sanders had value other than good wishes.

I'm not privy to what went on behind the scenes of the Patriots trading in his prime 27 year old SB Champion and Pro-Bowler Jamie Collins for a Compensatory 3rd round pick.......but it's not a far fetched belief that Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder or many others would have offered a 2nd rounder.

 

[SVN]

on thing mayo said in his podcast about all the 3 man rushes and still giving up big plays in the passing game was because mis communication and broken plays with players not knowing who should rush and who should be doing what. its possible this has become better now. But then our competition has been SF/jets/Rams. So lets see what happens vs baltimore who will throw a lot on us.

 

[shmessy]

They won the Super Bowl when they cut Milloy. That's value to me.

I'm greedy.

Yes, it worked fine for 2003 and 2004. But what if they got a 4th round pick for Milloy (who had value at that time). Could that pick have helped in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008? No one knows, but why give stuff away for free?

Ray, the question is: What does BB have to lose (other than some office time) by getting appropriate value for players you're shipping out?

I have a hard time believing that Collins was worth only a Compensatory 3rd rounder to each and every one of the other 31 NFL teams. Just my opinion.

 

[luuked]

The Collins trade was just terrible relative value in return.

The Jones trade? I'm ok, given that it brought us our Logan Mankins 2.0 (Thuney) and our David Givens 2.0 (Mitchell) for the next 10 yrs.

Yup, I'm good with the Jones trade. I hope he does more like THAT.

On a scale of 1-10, BB was a 9.5 on the Jones trade and a 1.5 on the Collins trade

All of this is total conjecture on your part.

I think Lombardi and others nailed it pretty well that most of the people that think we got nothing in return are thinking of the potential Collins has and not the player he has been for the majority of this season and parts of last season. If he really was so highly rated then more teams would have bid for him driving the compensation up.

Again, lets reconsider this trade _after_ we are through the FA period. The way we have moved on from 2 players that most probably would have yielded 3rd round compensation picks indicates to me that the team wants some flexibility this time around.