Van Noy, McClellin. Did BB turn it around?

[shmessy]

All of this is total conjecture on your part.

Yup. And so is yours.

Hence the name of the website.

" If he really was so highly rated then more teams would have bid for him driving the compensation up."

Aah, there is YOUR conjecture. You are assuming the Pats shopped him to all 31 teams.

 

[luuked]

on thing mayo said in his podcast about all the 3 man rushes and still giving up big plays in the passing game was because mis communication and broken plays with players not knowing who should rush and who should be doing what. its possible this has become better now. But then our competition has been SF/jets/Rams. So lets see what happens vs baltimore who will throw a lot on us.

That's what I was thinking about when I saw KVN do the calls last week. Having another player that is able to take charge take some pressure of Hightower and reduces the chances for miscommunication. It really stuck with me when Mayo explained how back in the past he just gave out the calls and before he could turn around other veteran players were already calling out adjustments making his job easier.

Getting people to the point where everyone is more familiar with whats going on and can fix miscommunication on the fly is what can propel this D further ahead than anything else.

 

[shmessy]

Again, lets reconsider this trade _after_ we are through the FA period. The way we have moved on from 2 players that most probably would have yielded 3rd round compensation picks indicates to me that the team wants some flexibility this time around.

I would say the Jones and Collins trades are completely different levels.

Jones: They got Cooper (bust) and a 2nd rounder which was traded into 3rd rounder (Thuney) 4th rounder (Mitchell). They got all 3 players into a full OTA and TC season. Cooper gets released and Thuney/Mitchell become integral pieces to the team.

Collins: They lose a starting player to be replaced in the middle of a season on the fly. They get a Compensatory 3rd rounder in 2017.

It is what it is.

 

[shmessy]

That's what I was thinking about when I saw KVN do the calls last week. Having another player that is able to take charge take some pressure of Hightower and reduces the chances for miscommunication. It really stuck with me when Mayo explained how back in the past he just gave out the calls and before he could turn around other veteran players were already calling out adjustments making his job easier.

Getting people to the point where everyone is more familiar with whats going on and can fix miscommunication on the fly is what can propel this D further ahead than anything else.

Which makes the Collins cut in the middle of the season a higher degree of difficulty than the offseason trade of Jones. Collins must have made a move on Kraft's girlfriend.

 

[The Gr8est]

I'm greedy.

Yes, it worked fine for 2003 and 2004. But what if they got a 4th round pick for Milloy (who had value at that time). Could that pick have helped in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008? No one knows, but why give stuff away for free?

Ray, the question is: What does BB have to lose (other than some office time) by getting appropriate value for players you're shipping out?

I have a hard time believing that Collins was worth only a Compensatory 3rd rounder to each and every one of the other 31 NFL teams. Just my opinion.

You are assuming that you have a better idea of what "appropriate value" is, than people who do this job for a living.

What evidence do you have that BB could have gotten a 2nd from Jerruh Jones or Dan Snyder?

Something is worth what someone is willing to pay.

 

[shmessy]

You are assuming that you have a better idea of what "appropriate value" is, than people who do this job for a living.

What evidence do you have that BB could have gotten a 2nd from Jerruh Jones or Dan Snyder?

Something is worth what someone is willing to pay.

I don't. Hence the whole "conjecture" exchange above. It's a fan forum and most everything is opinion.

That being said, is it possible the Patriots did not shop Collins to each and every one of the other 31 teams?

Is it not in the history/DNA for certain teams to give up 2nd round (or better) pick for a perfectly healthy 27 year old Super Bowl Champion LB coming off a Pro-Bowl season?

Hey, but evidently some are perfectly satisfied with the 3rd round compensatory for Collins. That's each person's prerogative. I was surprised and wonder whether they actually shopped him around.

 

[shmessy]

Sheard has been quiet, hard working and diligent. He made no fuss when he was very publicly benched (healthy scratch). Not only that, but he was a standup guy about it and the week after patiently and respectfully took reporters questions in front of his locker for Patriots.com. I was amazed at how well he handled himself in that situation. Most players would have refused to speak or would not have been so well-controlled and self aware at that time.

That two week period and how Sheard reacted to it, to me, was his finest hour. That showed great character.

Just needed to add the below video link. Mind you, this was BEFORE his redemption, a few days after he was kept off the team plane to SF. He was deep in the doghouse at this moment.

This is the profile of a strong, mature player who handled this situation with remarkable maturity. How many players in 2016 in any sport would do this when the media is peppering him with those questions.

At the time, I thought it was odd, but believe me, there is a REASON why Stacey James put this up on Patriots.com. That didn't happen by accident.

Jabaal Sheard 11/25: 'I'm just focused on the Jets'

If Jabal Sheard signs back here next year with the Patriots (50-50 chance, IMHO) that week - - between the SF game and the NYJ game - - and how Jabal handled it will be pointed at as a major factor in the decision. Every life and career has turning points and forks in the road. How one handles those dictates everything.


.

 

[The Scrizz]

On Collins: It looked like in the Giants game that he had just given up. Absolutely invisible. Getting traded from a SB contender to a 0-16 contender must be brutal but you're still playing for your livelihood in FA this year. He must be thinking that Browns will Franchise him no matter what.

 

[RayClay]

I'm greedy.

Yes, it worked fine for 2003 and 2004. But what if they got a 4th round pick for Milloy (who had value at that time). Could that pick have helped in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008? No one knows, but why give stuff away for free?

Ray, the question is: What does BB have to lose (other than some office time) by getting appropriate value for players you're shipping out?

I have a hard time believing that Collins was worth only a Compensatory 3rd rounder to each and every one of the other 31 NFL teams. Just my opinion.

Well, in 2009 he said he had lost the team. I think that's more important than a pick. If Collins was dogging it and freelancing and it was effecting the whole defense, there's a limited opportunity to turn that around.

The fact they picked up three former high pick LBs tells me they were preparing to drop Collins if need be. Players in the last year of their contract looking for big contracts have limited trade value.

 

[Danger Zone]

Belichick: Meh, its too much work to shop this guy around. And I don't like Draft Picks.

So Belichick is either lazy, unaware of market values or so obstinately stubborn that he will hurt his team to assuage his pride to "get back" at players that don't take to his coaching... or we entertain the possibility that there are circumstances we Internet fans are unaware of and accept on faith that Belichick truly believes moves like the Collins trade were in fact the best thing [big picture] for the team.

Snark aside, I do think its possible Belichick puts some value on sending a message to/shaking up his locker room. Hard work and buying into the system will be rewarded. Star players will not be allowed to dog it.

 

[The Gr8est]

I don't. Hence the whole "conjecture" exchange above. It's a fan forum and most everything is opinion.

That being said, is it possible the Patriots did not shop Collins to each and every one of the other 31 teams?

Is it not in the history/DNA for certain teams to give up 2nd round (or better) pick for a perfectly healthy 27 year old Super Bowl Champion LB coming off a Pro-Bowl season?

Hey, but evidently some are perfectly satisfied with the 3rd round compensatory for Collins. That's each person's prerogative. I was surprised and wonder whether they actually shopped him around.

It is unusual for a team to TRADE "a perfectly healthy 27 year old Super Bowl Champion LB coming off a Pro-Bowl season", so there is likely another part of the equation that we don't know.

Maybe BB was so intent on getting Collins off the team that he didn't want to take the time to exhaust all options.

Still, if there was a good reason for the greatest HC of all time to want this athletic freak off of his team, there is a reason for teams to not want to pay full price for him either.

I would have loved to get more, but under these circumstances Collins was worth a 3rd round comp pick in the next draft.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

It is unusual for a team to TRADE "a perfectly healthy 27 year old Super Bowl Champion LB coming off a Pro-Bowl season", so there is likely another part of the equation that we don't know.

Maybe BB was so intent on getting Collins off the team that he didn't want to take the time to exhaust all options.

Still, if there was a good reason for the greatest HC of all time to want this athletic freak off of his team, there is a reason for teams to not want to pay full price for him either.

I would have loved to get more, but under these circumstances Collins was worth a 3rd round comp pick in the next draft.

I still don't see the harm in keeping him for the remainder of the season...unless of course, he was an imminent threat to the locker room

I'd hardly consider it a trade...we essentially just dumped Collins off to another team

 

[ivanvamp]

Well thought-out.

Economy of words.

 

[Froob]

I'm greedy.

Yes, it worked fine for 2003 and 2004. But what if they got a 4th round pick for Milloy (who had value at that time). Could that pick have helped in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008? No one knows, but why give stuff away for free?

Ray, the question is: What does BB have to lose (other than some office time) by getting appropriate value for players you're shipping out?

I have a hard time believing that Collins was worth only a Compensatory 3rd rounder to each and every one of the other 31 NFL teams. Just my opinion.

Why was Milloy cut instead of traded or just let him play out the season and leave as a free agent?

 

[TennisBallHead]

Is linebacker a need next offseason? There's your answer.

Collins needed to go (especially based on his "highlights" in CLE). But I'm not going to give Belichick credit for that.

 

[EddardSnow67]

Once again, getting rid of a player I can understand. But when that player has value, get something in return!! Milloy and Sanders had value other than good wishes.

I'm not privy to what went on behind the scenes of the Patriots trading in his prime 27 year old SB Champion and Pro-Bowler Jamie Collins for a Compensatory 3rd round pick.......but it's not a far fetched belief that Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder or many others would have offered a 2nd rounder.

Why trade him to a team that you might end up facing in the Superbowl when you can trade him to a team that is no threat to you whatsoever and can actually only work to aid your cause by beating other teams?

 

[shmessy]

Why trade him to a team that you might end up facing in the Superbowl when you can trade him to a team that is no threat to you whatsoever and can actually only work to aid your cause by beating other teams?

OK, so 25 other teams.......

.....but before the season, the Arizona Cardinals were considered a team the Pats could very well face in the SB. Didn't stop them from sending Chandler Jones there.

 

[EddardSnow67]

OK, so 25 other teams.......

.....but before the season, the Arizona Cardinals were considered a team the Pats could very well face in the SB. Didn't stop them from sending Chandler Jones there.

Why would they fail to hear offers from other teams? It makes more sense that you're overestimating the market. Unfortunately, we don't know either way.

 

[shmessy]

On Collins: It looked like in the Giants game that he had just given up. Absolutely invisible. Getting traded from a SB contender to a 0-16 contender must be brutal but you're still playing for your livelihood in FA this year. He must be thinking that Browns will Franchise him no matter what.

Has to be deja vu for him. His final college year - Southern Miss went 0-12.

Guess the Browns record as we speak..........

 

[shmessy]

Is linebacker a need next offseason? There's your answer.

Collins needed to go (especially based on his "highlights" in CLE). But I'm not going to give Belichick credit for that.

The answer is a big YES!!!! Linebacker is a need for next season. A very big need.

Whom do we currently have under contract for the 2017??????

There is a lot riding on the Hightower negotiations. He has much more leverage at the moment without the team being able to play off Collins.