Updated Patriot Coaches and titles

[Dingleberry]

Word is Judge is going to have a position where he is floating between the front office and coaching. It is probably because he doesn't have a position title.

Judge wasn't a player that is why he doesn't get a free pass. He was a coach. Patricia's problem was affecting the results on the playing field not the practice field. In fact, Patricia made it easier on Judge because he took away audibles and presnap adjustments from Jones. Possibly because Judge couldn't understand the concepts. So that was one less thing that Judge had to coach and one of the harder things a QB coach has to coach. But working with a player on his mechanics and timing has nothing to do with how the plays are called on Sunday.

If Judge was a player, he would get a free pass. As a coach he doesn't. I don't give Troy Brown a free pass either for how poorly the WRs were coached last year either.

And Callahan is reporting from inside sources. Could some of them have grudges? Sure. But others from Bedard to Zolak all backed up Callahan's reporting on Judge that they have heard the same things.

I don't think everything was Patricia. I have said that Jones deserves a share of the blame for the offense last year especially during his temper tantrum phase mid to later in the season. Jones doesn't get a complete free pass.

And word was players had issues with Judge in 2019 when he coached WRs when McDaniels was still here. That was a horrible year for the Pats' WRs. You cannot blame Patricia for that. So there is a trend.

I would point out how putrid the Giants' offense was when he was head coach, but I don't think a head coach has as much effect on one side of the ball like that unless they are a Belichick with the defense or Andy Reid with the offense. But those coaches are more of a rarity. He gets the blame as head coach, but it is different than the blame heaped on the OC and position coaches.

I really hate to defend Judge because I have no real opinion on him one way or another. If my life depended on picking a side, I would say Judge is not a good offensive coach.

However, here are the facts as I see them (also known as opinions)...

1. If the offensive schemes and play calling was elementary as has been reported and was as simplistic as my eyes told me, THAT is 100% on the OC. No QB (or very few) would thrive under those circumstances. Mac gets a 2022 mulligan from me.

2. A QB coach is not an OC. The play calling and offensive scheme is not his domain. Even if he had ideas and suggestions (and I am sure he did), that doesn't mean Patricia was going to defer to him. The greatest QB mind in history could have been Mac's QB coach last season. I cannot be convinced that this hypothetical QB coach would have made a bit of difference given Patricia's offense. Therefore, Judge gets the same pass Mac does. As does Troy Brown. A WR coach cannot be held accountable for a high school level playbook.

3. Belichick obviously knew last year was a disaster. His solution was to give Patricia the boot and make Judge his right hand. It is ridiculous to dismiss the meaning behind this.

4. Patricia eliminated pre-snap adjustments and audibles because maybe Judge couldn't understand them? Come on. It's just as possible that Mac couldn't understand them (I don't believe that) or Patricia didn't know how to be an OC and was learning on the fly. Patricia was in over his head.

Mac has a clean slate from me. I really hope he proves that it was all Fat Matt this year.

Judge has a clean slate from me. If we see a less idiotic and more disciplined team this year, I will give some credit to the assistant coach. I will theorize that is why he is in that position this year. Bill recognize the desperate need to clean up the stupid **** the likes of which we have never seen from a Belichick team.

Troy Brown has a clean slate. Let's see how the WR's look with plays called that actually scheme to get the receivers open.


You are being fair spreading the blame pie. Now that we have a professional OC, I believe those caught up in the Patricia debacle will be vindicated.

 

[Triumph]

Why did Belichick name him QB coach last year when he knew less about the position than his second year QB? Why did Belichick put Patricia in charge of the offense when they had to dumb down the offense so he could figure out how to run it? Belichick has a long history especially in recent years of rewarding loyalty.

Judge was the Pats Assistant HC from 2012 - 2019. Funny how I never saw you wanting him gone until last year.

I wonder why??

And if the OC is only as good as his QB, why do teams pay big bucks to get or keep the top OCs in the league to run their offenses?

Remember when Andy Reid got run out of town in Philly? Remember when Skippy Macdaniels was a HC and he had Tebow?

If the OC is only as good as the QB, they could anyone to run the offense. Just keep promoting guys when OCs leave so you can save money. Why did the Pats make such an effort bring back O'Brien if it doesn't matter who is running the offense and the offense is only as good as Mac Jones?

Kraft wanted BOB. Look it up.

They could have just kept Patricia or hired any offensive guy off the street.

Just stop with you irrational ant-Mac BS. The act is tired.

Finally the 2023 season begins and all your litany of excuses and scapegoats as reasons why Jones failed wont fly anymore.

Its put up or shut up time for you.

 

[Sicilian]

Judge was the Pats Assistant HC from 2012 - 2019

Uh, no he wasn't.

 

[Rob0729]

Judge was the Pats Assistant HC from 2012 - 2019. Funny how I never saw you wanting him gone until last year.

I wonder why??

Remember when Andy Reid got run out of town in Philly? Remember when Skippy Macdaniels was a HC and he had Tebow?

Kraft wanted BOB. Look it up.

Finally the 2023 season begins and all your litany of excuses and scapegoats as reasons why Jones failed wont fly anymore.

Its put up or shut up time for you.

Scarnecchia was the only Assistant Head Coach on this team prior to this year in the Belichick era. Judge was never an Assistant Head Coach on this team prior to this year. He was the special teams coach for most of those years and he was a good one. He was a horrible WR receivers coach in 2019 according to many reports.

Andy Reid and McDaniels were head coaches, not OCs. And Reid was partially let go because he put a career offensive head coach in charge of the defense in Philly and it was an absolute disaster. Reid had Michael Vick his most of his final year with the Eagles (Nick Foles the rest). Neither coach were fired because of their QB. Well, McDaniels in part was fired because of his stupid selection of Tebow, but Tebow won for a season despite his lack of talent.

And we do not know if Belichick hired O'Brien because Kraft made him or Belichick wanted him or a little of both. No one has said publicly or even privately.

Boy you are batting .1000.

And yes, this is the year Mac Jones has to prove himself. I would say Belichick hasn't put him in the best position to succeed with the talent around him especially at tackle, but he still will need to show he can be a good QB.

 

[Rob0729]

I really hate to defend Judge because I have no real opinion on him one way or another. If my life depended on picking a side, I would say Judge is not a good offensive coach.

However, here are the facts as I see them (also known as opinions)...

1. If the offensive schemes and play calling was elementary as has been reported and was as simplistic as my eyes told me, THAT is 100% on the OC. No QB (or very few) would thrive under those circumstances. Mac gets a 2022 mulligan from me.

2. A QB coach is not an OC. The play calling and offensive scheme is not his domain. Even if he had ideas and suggestions (and I am sure he did), that doesn't mean Patricia was going to defer to him. The greatest QB mind in history could have been Mac's QB coach last season. I cannot be convinced that this hypothetical QB coach would have made a bit of difference given Patricia's offense. Therefore, Judge gets the same pass Mac does. As does Troy Brown. A WR coach cannot be held accountable for a high school level playbook.

3. Belichick obviously knew last year was a disaster. His solution was to give Patricia the boot and make Judge his right hand. It is ridiculous to dismiss the meaning behind this.

4. Patricia eliminated pre-snap adjustments and audibles because maybe Judge couldn't understand them? Come on. It's just as possible that Mac couldn't understand them (I don't believe that) or Patricia didn't know how to be an OC and was learning on the fly. Patricia was in over his head.

Mac has a clean slate from me. I really hope he proves that it was all Fat Matt this year.

Judge has a clean slate from me. If we see a less idiotic and more disciplined team this year, I will give some credit to the assistant coach. I will theorize that is why he is in that position this year. Bill recognize the desperate need to clean up the stupid **** the likes of which we have never seen from a Belichick team.

Troy Brown has a clean slate. Let's see how the WR's look with plays called that actually scheme to get the receivers open.


You are being fair spreading the blame pie. Now that we have a professional OC, I believe those caught up in the Patricia debacle will be vindicated.

First, you completely lost me that they got rid of the audibles because possibly Jones couldn't understand them. That is absolutely ridiculous when anyone who has been following Jones in his college career and rookie career is that presnap is where he excels. If Jones couldn't understand the audibles, there are few QBs in the league who could understand the audibles. That is an area where Mac is clearly above average. Jones has his faults and some were glaring last year, but presnap reads and audible is a strength of his.

And yes, it is very possible tha Judge couldn't understand the audibles. The guy is a special teams coach who spent one year as a WRs coach in a year where the receivers arguably performed the worst during the Brady era. By accounts, Jones had to teach Judge the offense and they still had to simplify it for Judge and/or Patricia in the offseason last year.

And a position coach does his work in practice. Position coaches aren't doing as much during game day. The starting QB usually works with OC when the defense is on the field on game days, not the QB coach. Position coaches' jobs are to prepare players during the week. If a player isn't prepared on game day, that is on the position coach as much as the coordinator.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Unless Mayo got a boatload of cash, him just being a "LB's" coach when he supposedly gave up HC's interviews is pretty bad move on his part. He should've demanded to be the DC. And LOL with Judge being the Assistant HC.

Unless it's in his contract he is the next HC (probably isn't), you never trust handshake deals.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Unless Mayo got a boatload of cash, him just being a "LB's" coach when he supposedly gave up HC's interviews is pretty bad move on his part. He should've demanded to be the DC. And LOL with Judge being the Assistant HC.

Unless it's in his contract he is the next HC (probably isn't), you never trust handshake deals.

It arguably hurts NE more than it does Mayo. Right now, he could apply for any DC opening that pops up, and the Patriots cannot block it.

 

[Dingleberry]

First, you completely lost me that they got rid of the audibles because possibly Jones couldn't understand them. That is absolutely ridiculous when anyone who has been following Jones in his college career and rookie career is that presnap is where he excels. If Jones couldn't understand the audibles, there are few QBs in the league who could understand the audibles. That is an area where Mac is clearly above average. Jones has his faults and some were glaring last year, but presnap reads and audible is a strength of his.

And yes, it is very possible tha Judge couldn't understand the audibles. The guy is a special teams coach who spent one year as a WRs coach in a year where the receivers arguably performed the worst during the Brady era. By accounts, Jones had to teach Judge the offense and they still had to simplify it for Judge and/or Patricia in the offseason last year.

And a position coach does his work in practice. Position coaches aren't doing as much during game day. The starting QB usually works with OC when the defense is on the field on game days, not the QB coach. Position coaches' jobs are to prepare players during the week. If a player isn't prepared on game day, that is on the position coach as much as the coordinator.

So....

Patricia, the OC, created an offense with complex audibles and pre-snap reads that the walking buffoon Judge couldn't comprehend. But Mac, a pre-snap savant with hardly a peer in the league, couldn't utilize that part of Patricia's amazing offense because Judge just couldn't grasp it?

That is the theory?

It is highly more likely (and all evidence supports it) that Patricia's offense was so simplistic that he never was able to implement audibles into it. For some reason, Patricia was trying to create an offense during training camp and was learning on the fly. An offense that basic having audibles too complex for Judge is not believable. There was nothing about Matt's offense that was complex.

I am assuming Bill knows what happened last year. If Judge sabotaged Matt's offense with such gross incompetence, I can't envision him keeping him around.

Again, I don't think Judge would be a great QB coach. I'd be more judgmental of him though if he had been paired with an actual real OC.

I'm trying to adopt the theory that Patricia created anything on offense so complex that Judge (or anyone) couldn't comprehend. And not only was Judge so clueless trying to understand pre-snap reads, but Belichick decided to keep him around after such a pathetic display. I'm having trouble with this for some reason.

 

[Tunescribe]

If Mac's abysmal season can be written off due to the joke at OC (and there is merit to this, of course), why couldn't Judge's performance as QB coach be excused as well?

What QB coach was going to overcome the lack of a real OC? If Mac gets a pass, so does Judge.

No, look at it this way: Patricia was Moe and Judge was Shemp.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Every time I encounter a reference to Judge I react like Seinfeld hearing "Newman". Man, I wish he was gone (to the JETE). The guy is organizational poison. BB thinks he can extract football value from him without the poison breaking out. I think BB is wrong and it's just a matter of time before controversy erupts around Judge.

Before going to the Giants, Judge was a Pats coach for 8 years and did very well coaching STs and was well liked. I never heard anyone talk about Judge being "poison" for those 8 years. Now "the guy is organizational poison"? "Just a matter of time before controversy erupts"? Do you have an inside contact on the Pats' coaching staff?

 

[turkeyneck]

Before going to the Giants, Judge was a Pats coach for 8 years and did very well coaching STs and was well liked. I never heard anyone talk about Judge being "poison" for those 8 years. Now "the guy is organizational poison"? "Just a matter of time before controversy erupts"? Do you have an inside contact on the Pats' coaching staff?

Key words here are "Before going to the Giants". I agree with your characterization of the Before Time. But something changed after Judge got the big promotion. His NY time was a huge fail and ended with players happy to see his back. Since his return we've had more a continuation of the NY Era than a return to the Before Time - unhappy players, poor performance.

 

[Dingleberry]

No, look at it this way: Patricia was Moe and Judge was Shemp.

I just don't believe that after last year's disaster that Bill would name Shemp as Asst Head Coach.

But I do love that Bill haters like you and Crawfish voice what a dummy BB is. It makes Patsfans much more interesting.

 

[Tunescribe]

I just don't believe that after last year's disaster that Bill would name Shemp as Asst Head Coach.

But I do love that Bill haters like you and Crawfish voice what a dummy BB is. It makes Patsfans much more interesting.

I'm neither a Bill hater nor a member of "Team Bill," just a Patriots fan. It is what it is.

Shemp was a loyal gofer if you recall -- Assistant Moe. Perhaps that's what BB has in mind.

 

[Dingleberry]

t
I'm neither a Bill hater nor a member of "Team Bill," just a Patriots fan. It is what it is.

Shemp was a loyal gofer if you recall -- Assistant Moe. Perhaps that's what BB has in mind.

So, Belichick is now Moe?

I am also Team Patriots, but I don't see Bill as one of the stooges as you do. He is more of a GOAT to me.

But I love the differing opinions here.

 

[Chevy]

Judge is such a trainwreck as a coach, that BB named him Assistant HC.

An OC is only as good as his QB. Cant turn crap into gold.

No, but a good OC can turn it into Pyrite. Not gold, but still has many uses and gets the job done.

 

[Tunescribe]

So, Belichick is now Moe?

I am also Team Patriots, but I don't see Bill as one of the stooges as you do. He is more of a GOAT to me.

But I love the differing opinions here.

No, no, no -- PATRICIA was Moe. BB just figured Judge/Shemp's loyal servitude could be useful and naming him assistant head coach would be a motivator by making him feel important.

I think Shemp is a good nickname for Judge. Seems to fit, don't you think?

 

[borg]

Key words here are "Before going to the Giants". I agree with your characterization of the Before Time. But something changed after Judge got the big promotion. His NY time was a huge fail and ended with players happy to see his back. Since his return we've had more a continuation of the NY Era than a return to the Before Time - unhappy players, poor performance.

After his over the top interview in training camp prior to the start of the '22 season in which he repeatedly declared how he serves at the pleasure of Belichick and articulated in no uncertain terms his undying loyalty to his boss, Judge achieved rarified "bobo" status as a ranking member of Bill's Friends & Family cabal.

And after his and Curly Joe's catastrophic failures with the offense last season, how can any player on the current team view Judge as anything more than a Bill Loyalist in survival mode at this point in his career. He's an Internal Affairs operative who you give wide berth too.

Perception is everything and extreme skepticism surrounds Judge from all directions but one.

Why Belichick continues to die on the Joe Judge hill is baffling.
Promoting Joe Judge to #2 defies basic rationality.

But then again, many of Bill's decisions in the past 4 years have defied basic rationality.

 

[Dingleberry]

No, no, no -- PATRICIA was Moe. BB just figured Judge/Shemp's loyal servitude could be useful and naming him assistant head coach would be a motivator by making him feel important.

I think Shemp is a good nickname for Judge. Seems to fit, don't you think?

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View attachment 51695

Ya, that sounds like Bill. Promote someone to make him feel better.

I just have a higher opinion of Bill. But I concede I could be wrong. Belichick could be the buffoon you and Crawdaddy think he is.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Key words here are "Before going to the Giants". I agree with your characterization of the Before Time. But something changed after Judge got the big promotion. His NY time was a huge fail and ended with players happy to see his back. Since his return we've had more a continuation of the NY Era than a return to the Before Time - unhappy players, poor performance.

Lots of coordinators go on to be head coaches and then return to be coordinators. It is not uncommon.

I am not sure that Judge is "poison" and is going to cause an "eruption" in the team's dynamics. You might be overreacting to media reports seeking "clicks".

 

[Steve102]

All I know is every time I see the thread title, I read it as :

Updated Patriot Coaches and titties.​