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Discussion in 'Red Sox Fan Forum' started by scout, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. scout

    scout Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Today's Herald mentioned some teams interested in Crisp, who had a decent year after July and a good postseason, thus, his value is good. The other player is Lugo. The article mentioned that the Sox would have to dump him or make a trade with another big contract player who bombed. One pitcher that was mentioned was Willis with Detroit. I would make that trade in a heartbeat. Pitchers are very erratic and can bounce back and be great, as Willis has done in the past. As a fan, I really don't care about the size of the contract given there is no cap.
     
  2. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Absolutely, and he may flourish in an environment where he doesn't have to be a #1 or even a #2 or a #3................We could always use him as a pinch hitter if needed............
     
  3. lostjumper

    lostjumper Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I can't believe that Lugo is drawing trade interest. If he really is, we should all help drive him to the airport.

    I don't think I would take on Dontrelle's contract right now. He has shoulder problems, made worse by his herky-jerky motion, and he has mental problems as well. Remember, he spent almost the entire year last hear in the minors. I can't remember what his contract is, but it's big.

    Crisp actually has value now. He could get much more on the trade market.
     
  4. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    First off, the trade proposal from the Herald was Willis for Lugo, not Crisp.

    Second, Willis has never spent a day on the DL in his life for a shoulder injury, so I don't know where that is coming from. He was on the DL this season for so long because he hyper-extended his knee while slipping on a wet mound.

    Third, he made 11 starts in the minors because he sucked. Not because of "mental problems". Accusing the guy of having troubles upstairs because of an awful season is a bit silly.

    Fourth, his problems look to be almost entirely mechanical. His delivery now versus how it was a few years ago are completely different, ergo his stuff less sharp and he's lost command of his pitches. If his delivery can be changed back to how it was circa 2005, then he could get back to his former dominant form.

    Finally, his remaining contract is 2/$22M. Substantially more than he is worth, but considering Lugo is still under contract for 2/$18M it's not that bad for a 1-for-1 swap. The contracts are basically a wash, and I like Willis' chance of being a quality starter more than Lugo's chances of being an impact hitter. Either of those happening is unlikely, but it would be a decent risk to take considering all they have to lose is Julio Lugo and $4M.
     
  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think it's silly to attribute part of his inability to throw strikes, as being partly mental. Some guys just think about it too much.

    I'm not sure Detroit is going to give up on a high end arm like Willis, even with all his problems, for a .220 hitting, stone gloved defender, with no pop, in order to save $4 million. Of course, they did give Willis 3 years & $30+ million last year, so who knows.

    Crisp for Khalil Greene is a rumor that keeps popping up.
     
  6. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    I would trade Lugo for some new bats, literally maybe like ten new 34 ounce Louisville Sluggers.

    I could see a Willis for Lugo trade (bloated contract for bloated contract) at least this way the Sox will be greatly overpaying a guy actually playing for them, and not someone else.
     
  7. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    It's silly to call it mental at this point because there are several other, more logical explanations to his crappy performance. Maybe he does have some mental problems, but he definitely was injured, and he definitely had messed up mechanics. If he was perfectly sound in every other aspect but still sucked (ie Ankiel) maybe I'd buy the mental argument. But it is way too early to put him in that category.

    And the Greene/Crisp swap was debunked by both SD and Boston. The reporter that wrote the article where the rumor originated was contacted and said he wasn't saying that the two were in a rumored deal together. The article was just poorly worded.
     
  8. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    The trade involves a Little League Team from Guam and the Red Sox would pay his full salary.
     
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not saying all of Willis' problems are mental. Clearly though, throwing strikes, or the inability to throw them when you've had the success he's had in his career, does affect a guy from the neck up a little bit. Maybe saying pscycological, as opposed to mental, fits a little better?
     
  10. WhiskeyBreath

    WhiskeyBreath 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Dontrelle Willis is ****ing awful.
     
  11. WhiskeyBreath

    WhiskeyBreath 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I think I might feel better if they just eat half of Lugo's deal and ship him off for a prospect or a least a guy who isn't a disaster himself.
     
  12. captain insano

    captain insano In the Starting Line-Up

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    #11 Jersey

    i second that. sox fans would get wip lash watching all the balls fly out of fenway
     
  13. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    How does that help the team? With Cabrera, Furcal and Renteria available for just money, no team will give up any player of value to acquire Lugo. The only thing a deal like this would accomplish is saving the team $9M, while offering no chance of improving. With Willis, even if the chance may be small, there is still a chance that he can be a productive major league pitcher with the right coaching.

    So for $4M hey can get rid of a player they have no use for, and get to try and fix a 27 year old former Cy Young runner up. Worst case scenario he still sucks and they're out $4M. Best case scenario they get a quality major league pitcher for $4M and Julio Lugo. The worst case isn't that bad. The best case can help the team immensely.
     
  14. WhiskeyBreath

    WhiskeyBreath 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I think you answered your own question. It would save the team money to use to acquire some help in the pen or any other area they wish to improve upon. Maybe even use that money to extend a young player or go after a free agent.

    I really think Willis would be eaten alive in the AL East. He gives up a ton of hits and walks and that was in the NL never mind the AL.
     
  15. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    $4.5M a season is about enough to buy a good bench player in this market. That wont be the difference maker on any player of importance, be it a FA or extension. And considering how much they already have coming off the books as it is, money wont be a problem for them regardless of what they do with Lugo.

    The NL East boasts the Mets, Braves and Phillies, the three of which finished in the top 10 in runs scored in Willis' final 2 seasons in the division. Other than Boston (who he obviously wouldn't pitch against if he were traded here), the Yankees are the only team in the AL East to be in the top 10 in runs scored since 2005. Excluding Boston and Florida, the AL East is an inferior offensive division than the NL East. As far as the leagues on a whole... The NL had a .744OPS last year, while the AL had a .756OPS. Not much difference. The perception that the NL is a JV league is really not the reality of the situation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2008
  16. WhiskeyBreath

    WhiskeyBreath 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    You are using stats in which Willis wasn't a part of the NL.
     
  17. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    OK. Here are the stats when he was in the NL. Same difference.

    2007
    AL: .761OPS
    NL: .757OPS

    2006
    AL: .776OPS
    NL: .761OPS

    2005
    AL: .754OPS
    NL: .744OPS

    2004
    AL: .771OPS
    NL: .756OPS

    2003
    AL: .761OPS
    NL: .749OPS
     
  18. WhiskeyBreath

    WhiskeyBreath 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Thanks for proving my point. The AL is better than the NL.
     
  19. Foley

    Foley Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I never denied that. All I said is that the perception of the NL as being vastly inferior to the AL is wrong. They are comparable leagues.

    Plus, even if the AL is superior, it doesn't change that the NL East is far superior offensively to the AL East when you factor in that he'd never face Boston.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2008
  20. WhiskeyBreath

    WhiskeyBreath 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Go look at the Adjusted Equivilent Runs per Game.

    haha even the Orioles are superior to every NL East team.
     

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