Torn between FA WRs Mike Wallace and Brandon Lloyd...

[MoLewisrocks]

Good post Joe...we have a very Good Offense but it's not unstopable against very good Defenses. Even though the final numbers say we were the #2 overall Offense, our Offense couldn't hold a candle to Green Bay's or the Saints Offense. They have Elites on the outsides with speed so they were basically playing catch against the Defense. As you said Joe Goods Defense could clog the middle against us and make it tough for Brady...People think about Brady playing against a Safety who plays outside the box...it doesn't get any easier...Mike Wallace would make our Offense even better than 2007.

That would beg the question, how did neither of them even make it to the NFCC game... Must be something more to winning than elites on the outside. Oh wait, I think I remember we went to a super bowl once with the elitist of the elite outsides and...we lost because Brady couldn't get the ball to him most of the night because he was too busy picking turf out of his facemask.

 

[satz]

This is a pretty funny post.

Do tell us why reality says the Patriots won't be in the running for Mr. Lloyd's services?

1) 31 yr old guy who has had 1 good yr in 8 where he was the primary focus of a offense. He will not be the focus here.

2)31 yr old guy who is not too big or too fast to start with. a long term deal is not good. He will matchup against cromartie - big/strong or davis big/strong. i assume the best corner goes on wes welker

3) If branch comes back or ocho restructure we will already have the older WR who has lost a step role...it will tough to look at lloyd if his performace last year is because of getting slower in the same role.

4)If ocho restructures and branch comes for cheap you already have 2 outside guys. so in a 3 man rotation you are not paying alot of money.
It will ideal for a rookie there learn as he takes time away from the veterans.

 

[PatsFan2]

All Wallace cares about is the bottom line. He'd only care about structure in relation to how much he's guaranteed. Thing is teams won't **** around with him forever. There are 600 FA on the market and the draft to consider. Teams won't wait for him to make a decision. Some teams won't even get into RFA's for that reason. They don't want to be in limbo for 7 days while other targets evaporate. But the longer it goes the less likely he doesn't have to settle for a deal the Steelers could live with. Unless the deal includes a poison pill, and we won't go there on principle.

Seriously Mo i could see BB going there...look at the WR's he has missed on Bethel Johnson - Chad Jackson and Taylor Price. All ran the Fastest 40 times or were Top 5 in that area. BB haven't hit on a Speed WR in a while and it is not for a lack of trying as with those mentioned above. Whether it was him or Pioli we will never know. But we can see that BB is enormed With Speed at WR. He hasn't been able to develop one but lets say somebody else developed them for him...He would have to pay the price for a ready made palyer...you cannot get something for nothing. I seriously don't think alot of us would be happy if the Patriots took a Rookie WR in the First over a Defensive player knowing our luck. Mike Wallace so far in Three years is sporting a 18.4 ypc average...what's the going rate for those guys nowadays? A pretty penny i tell you.

 

[Deus Irae]

I know I'm in the minority but I doubt there will be anything close to a bidding war for Wallace. The first round pick will deter many teams.

There are only two or three teams
a) where Wallace fills a need
b) who has cap space to offer a front-loaded contract that the Steelers can't match and
c) has a LATE 1st round pick

Other than the Patriots I don't see any good matches. Houston probably doesn't have the cap room, the Browns and Bengals have picks but they're too high/valuable to trade for Wallace.

Baltimore would be a great match

 

[Snake Eyes]

1) 31 yr old guy who has had 1 good yr in 8 where he was the primary focus of a offense. He will not be the focus here.

Ok, so when he was the guy the defense had to worry about he still performed at an exceptional level, is that what you're saying? Hmm, I wonder what he could do when the defense has to worry about other threats.

2)31 yr old guy who is not too big or too fast to start with. a long term deal is not good. He will matchup against cromartie - big/strong or davis big/strong. i assume the best corner goes on wes welker

Yeah, I guess not being too big or fast didnt present a problem for him in a McDaniels offense, did he get open, did he make the catches required of him?

3) If branch comes back or ocho restructure we will already have the older WR who has lost a step role...it will tough to look at lloyd if his performace last year is because of getting slower in the same role.

Lloyd is better than Branch and Ocho combined. Branch will likely be depth soon and Ocho gone in camp, if he even makes it that far.

 

[Deus Irae]

1) 31 yr old guy who has had 1 good yr in 8 where he was the primary focus of a offense. He will not be the focus here.

2)31 yr old guy who is not too big or too fast to start with. a long term deal is not good. He will matchup against cromartie - big/strong or davis big/strong. i assume the best corner goes on wes welker

3) If branch comes back or ocho restructure we will already have the older WR who has lost a step role...it will tough to look at lloyd if his performace last year is because of getting slower in the same role.

4)If ocho restructures and branch comes for cheap you already have 2 outside guys. so in a 3 man rotation you are not paying alot of money.
It will ideal for a rookie there learn as he takes time away from the veterans.

How many different times are you going to post this nonsense when I've already debunked it in direct responses to you?

Again the guy is 31 and i would stay away from him if you are planning to go through the development phase for 1 to 2 yrs.I think he will be lining up against revis/cromatie or davis/sean in our division in 4 games. all 4 are bigger/stronger/physical corner back. I think he more of a gaffney with a little more speed then anything .You put a physical corner and beat him he will be done.In the afc east you need to matchup against these corners on the outside.In our division outside guys need not be burners but have to be strong and taller on a pure matchup .The goal is create issues for even the bigger corners in our division with size and speed.

Lloyd's numbers against quality defenses over the past 2 seasons are fine, despite his being the focal point for opposing defenses during that time. The notion that he can't handle the AFCE falls in the face of that, especially since he would be coming in as a helping part rather than as the primary receiving option.

2010:
Bal - 5 for 135
NYJ - 4 for 74
KC - 6 for 90
SDG - 6 for 78
KC - 2 for 31
SDG - 5 for 73
So, only one poor game against the best defenses in 2010

2011:
SDG - 1 for 20
SEA - 5 for 67
SFO - 1 for 34
SEA - 5 for 82
PIT - 3 for 2
SFO - 6 for 100

So, not as impressive as 2010, but he was in two really bad situations and still put up decent numbers overall.

...Lloyd - 31 , Had a big year 2 yrs ago.... did his wheels fall off ?... not big enough to go against AFC CB like cromati ,Davis etc [2nd CB as i assume No 1 CB will be on Wes]...

As I've already pointed out to you,

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/899993-mike-wallace-considers-pats-49ers-options.html#post2969200

your take on Lloyd is incorrect.


You posting the same erroneous claims on a second thread isn't going to morph them into truths.

This is already time #3.

 

[JackBauer]

1) 31 yr old guy who has had 1 good yr in 8 where he was the primary focus of a offense. He will not be the focus here.

Incorrect.

2)31 yr old guy who is not too big or too fast to start with. a long term deal is not good. He will matchup against cromartie - big/strong or davis big/strong. i assume the best corner goes on wes welker

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

3) If branch comes back or ocho restructure we will already have the older WR who has lost a step role...it will tough to look at lloyd if his performace last year is because of getting slower in the same role.

There is no evidence Lloyd has lost a step.

4)If ocho restructures and branch comes for cheap you already have 2 outside guys. so in a 3 man rotation you are not paying alot of money.
It will ideal for a rookie there learn as he takes time away from the veterans.

Yeah, perhaps the two worst outside receivers in the entire NFL. Sounds great!

 

[patfanken]

I think there are more teams that will be interested and it's not necessarily a matter of frontloading a deal to preclude the Steelers matching. I don't think they will match any top tier deal and there are lots of teams out there with cash to spend and need or even a want (for speed) at WR.

No, Mo I think the poster was correct when he noted the interest in Williams will be limited. Its not giving up the #1 pick. Its not the max contract that William will be looking for. Its the #1 pick AND the max contract that limits his options. In fact the Pats are about the ONLY team that fits the bill. They have 2 picks in the first. The picks are low enough to minimize the damage. They have a reasonable amount of cap room. And they have a need that matches Williams skills. Who else have that rather unique combination.

However here are the reasons why it won't happen.
1. It's the #1 pick AND the max contract
2. The Pats are not going to pay 2 max contracts to WRs and Welker is the first priority.
3. The Pats offense is constituted right now where the 2nd WR is the #4 option and you can't make that kind of investment for a #4 option...or #3....or #2 for that matter.

Of course if Welker walks before the draft, then the whole situation changes, and the Williams scenario would become a distinct possibility

One of the problems the Steelers have (in addition to an institutional aversion to paying top tier money

Well they must be paying SOMEONE "top tier money" or they wouldn't find themselves $25MM over the cap

...and a cap crunch that will continue at least through 2013) is they think they have a better all around WR right behind him who will be in line for his own deal next season. Kind of like the situation we faced with Branch and Givens where we wouldn't extend for either one because we didn't want to raise the bar for the other. A problem we will face when the two headed TE monster has to be extended.

Good analogy. Its going to be very difficult for the Pats to be able to keep BOTH Gronk and Hernandez in 2 years. It will be interesting to see how they handle it. The good news is that the cap will drastically increase the year they become FAs

The Steelers will want to be flexible enough to tag that kid or get him signed to a pricey extention. And if you don't think there are always teams out there willing to part with a top 15 pick for an unproven WR in the draft...

I would agree that they would for the player, just not the player AND the contract. Not with the cap this low and not for a WR.

If the Steelers were open for some kind of a trade as someone alluded to, THAT would be a way to spark more interest. Lets say the Steelers were willing to trade him for the 62 this year and a 2nd next year. The Pats get him cheap for this year and work out an extention which would give him a healthy signing bonus, a low cap hit this year (under $5MM which would be what people are willing to pay Lloyd) and extend the big cap hits into 2014. Now that would be a deal that might work for both teams In the end it would give the Pats their speed WR, and eliminate the need to pick a WR in the first 3 rounds

....OR in the end, I'm pretty sure that the Steeler's will be able to clear enough cap room to sign and keep him for $3MM and let him walk in 2013

 

[PatsFan2]

Its Wallace and not William ken.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Seriously Mo i could see BB going there...look at the WR's he has missed on Bethel Johnson - Chad Jackson and Taylor Price. All ran the Fastest 40 times or were Top 5 in that area. BB haven't hit on a Speed WR in a while and it is not for a lack of trying as with those mentioned above. Whether it was him or Pioli we will never know. But we can see that BB is enormed With Speed at WR. He hasn't been able to develop one but lets say somebody else developed them for him...He would have to pay the price for a ready made palyer...you cannot get something for nothing. I seriously don't think alot of us would be happy if the Patriots took a Rookie WR in the First over a Defensive player knowing our luck. Mike Wallace so far in Three years is sporting a 18.4 ypc average...what's the going rate for those guys nowadays? A pretty penny i tell you.

The decision is Kraft's and he isn't going there.

And who is to say Wallace has developed? Then there is the difference in performing in a system predicated on Chinese Fire Drills and one predicated on pre and post snap reads and adjustments and precision route running and timing.

He's gonna get paid a pretty penny for his speed, just not likely here.

 

[PatsFan2]

The decision is Kraft's and he isn't going there.

And who is to say Wallace has developed? Then there is the difference in performing in a system predicated on Chinese Fire Drills and one predicated on pre and post snap reads and adjustments and precision route running and timing.

He's gonna get paid a pretty penny for his speed, just not likely here.

A player who just missed having Two consecutive 1200yds season is pretty developed in my book.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

No, Mo I think the poster was correct when he noted the interest in Williams will be limited. Its not giving up the #1 pick. Its not the max contract that William will be looking for. Its the #1 pick AND the max contract that limits his options. In fact the Pats are about the ONLY team that fits the bill. They have 2 picks in the first. The picks are low enough to minimize the damage. They have a reasonable amount of cap room. And they have a need that matches Williams skills. Who else have that rather unique combination.

However here are the reasons why it won't happen.
1. It's the #1 pick AND the max contract
2. The Pats are not going to pay 2 max contracts to WRs and Welker is the first priority.
3. The Pats offense is constituted right now where the 2nd WR is the #4 option and you can't make that kind of investment for a #4 option...or #3....or #2 for that matter.

Of course if Welker walks before the draft, then the whole situation changes, and the Williams scenario would become a distinct possibility

Well they must be paying SOMEONE "top tier money" or they wouldn't find themselves $25MM over the cap
Good analogy. Its going to be very difficult for the Pats to be able to keep BOTH Gronk and Hernandez in 2 years. It will be interesting to see how they handle it. The good news is that the cap will drastically increase the year they become FAs
I would agree that they would for the player, just not the player AND the contract. Not with the cap this low and not for a WR.

If the Steelers were open for some kind of a trade as someone alluded to, THAT would be a way to spark more interest. Lets say the Steelers were willing to trade him for the 62 this year and a 2nd next year. The Pats get him cheap for this year and work out an extention which would give him a healthy signing bonus, a low cap hit this year (under $5MM which would be what people are willing to pay Lloyd) and extend the big cap hits into 2014. Now that would be a deal that might work for both teams In the end it would give the Pats their speed WR, and eliminate the need to pick a WR in the first 3 rounds

....OR in the end, I'm pretty sure that the Steeler's will be able to clear enough cap room to sign and keep him for $3MM and let him walk in 2013

San Francisco is interested. Snyder could be if he lands a QB in FA. Seattle might me and cash over cap is not an issue for Paul Allen, especially if he's thinking about making a Manning run. Personally I think it's foolish to pay that combination price for a speed WR. But the NFL roadside is littered with the corpses of desperate GM's and HC's who do foolish things in the hope of saving their job for another season.

The Steelers GM has admitted they got away from their discipline and principles and it's cost them dearly. They are looking to get back to their roots.

And we don't have the cap space to frontload a deal, not if we want to sign Welker and replace some of the 16 other FA including the centers. We'll have about $14M to work with at present after tagging Welker. Creating more would be norgaging the future, which is what Pittsburgh did and now regrets. As I'm sure the Raiders and JETS and others do, especially since they didn't even make it to the playoffs last year. Discipline isn't fun, but it tends to pay dividends long term.

The Steelers can't trade him unless he signs his tender. And he's probably not going to do that until or unless he gets desperate. They're fine with retaining him for $2.8M, and will be even finer with retaining him at 110% of whatever he made last year if he hasn't signed it by June 1 and the can replace it like we did to Mankins. Then he will be a bargain for them even for a stretch run...

He's going to be looking for ballpark franchise tag money because his agent knows the cap is going up soon and contracts will too. Probably in the 5 year $45-50M range with $20M+ guaranteed. And if he doesn't assimilate into the system, you're screwed even more if you went low on the early cap hits. Because then you have his big cap hits or worse, dead cap clogging your cap when you're trying to sign the TE's among others and maybe even trying to extend the HOF QB who is still elite...

This organization has consistently taken the long view and it's paid off. They can get to a superbowl without signing any big name FA. They aren't inclined to toss the formula for a shot at winning one because they know how variable those odds are no matter who is on your roster on paper on opening day.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

A player who just missed having Two consecutive 1200yds season is pretty developed in my book.

We've had guys in here before who had lots of thousand yard seasons and they couldn't approach that in this system. This kid has talent. He has speed. We've drafted kids like that and seen them fail to develop here. He also fell off a cliff in the second half of last season. We have no idea what his mental capacity or mental toughness and coachability is. His own HC labeled him a one trick pony at some point. They don't run a similar system in Pittsburgh. In fact with Ben under center they have increasingly run the seat of my pants offense. Talent can shine under those circumstances. Yet fail in a disciplined and demanding scheme.

 

[madmike77]

Baltimore would be a great match

I think they like Smith as their deep threat.

The other issue is they need to franchise Rice and sign Flacco to a long-term deal. Then they'd have to give Wallace a front-loaded contract with a hit of $10-15 million this year to make sure the Steelers don't match. I'm sure there's a way they could do it, but cap-wise it would be tricky.

 

[Gronkandez]

Baltimore would be a great match

I agree they need a WR but they already have Torrey Smith as a stretch the field guy.

EDIT: I didn't notice Madmike posted the same reply.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think the Patriots are on the right track in terms of the free agent skill set they've targeted. They would be most helped by a savvy, sure-handed veteran who can constantly beat inferior nickel backs. A little speed would help, and they've targeted guys that, while fading, can still stretch the field.

The problem is Joey Galloway, Torrey Holt, and Chad Ochocinco have not worked out... but I think it's clear about what they want, as all three receivers were former stars still with enough talent to make defenses respect them. Holt was injured, so we'll never know on that one. Galloway was as dumb as a box of bricks, and Ochocinco was also not intelligent enough for this system.

Just because it hasn't worked out yet doesn't mean the idea isn't right.

I like Reggie Wayne, and I think he will be the guy the Pats bring in, to the delight of this fan base. Wallace doesn't fit the mold. Lloyd... not sure.

 

[Gronkandez]

All Wallace cares about is the bottom line. He'd only care about structure in relation to how much he's guaranteed. Thing is teams won't **** around with him forever. There are 600 FA on the market and the draft to consider. Teams won't wait for him to make a decision. Some teams won't even get into RFA's for that reason. They don't want to be in limbo for 7 days while other targets evaporate. But the longer it goes the less likely he doesn't have to settle for a deal the Steelers could live with. Unless the deal includes a poison pill, and we won't go there on principle. I believe the CBA does also allow for trading future or non original draft picks once you get within 7 days of the draft, provided all parties agree to it. So it is possible he hangs around on the tender until a day or so before the draft and some team trades back and then signs him to an offer sheet that the Steelers have agreed not to match in exchange for a lower than original first round pick or a first round pick in 2013. Or he can agree to sign his tender to facilitate a trade as Welker did, if indeed the Steelers aren't totally committed to retaining him for 2012 or they believe he won't show before week 10.

Posion pills aren't allowed anymore.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think the Patriots are on the right track in terms of the free agent skill set they've targeted. They would be most helped by a savvy, sure-handed veteran who can constantly beat inferior nickel backs. A little speed would help, and they've targeted guys that, while fading, can still stretch the field.

The problem is Joey Galloway, Torrey Holt, and Chad Ochocinco have not worked out... but I think it's clear about what they want, as all three receivers were former stars still with enough talent to make defenses respect them. Holt was injured, so we'll never know on that one. Galloway was as dumb as a box of bricks, and Ochocinco was also not intelligent enough for this system.

Just because it hasn't worked out yet doesn't mean the idea isn't right.

I like Reggie Wayne, and I think he will be the guy the Pats bring in, to the delight of this fan base. Wallace doesn't fit the mold. Lloyd... not sure.

Where are people getting the notion that Wallace doesn't fit the mold? Considering that Moss helped make that mold, it's a position that makes no sense, IMO.

 

[JackBauer]

I like Reggie Wayne, and I think he will be the guy the Pats bring in, to the delight of this fan base. Wallace doesn't fit the mold. Lloyd... not sure.

I don't think the delight would be so unequivocal. For myself, anyway, it would be a resounding "meh."

Would much rather have Lloyd.

 

[supafly]

Where are people getting the notion that Wallace doesn't fit the mold? Considering that Moss helped make that mold, it's a position that makes no sense, IMO.

Not sure about the comparison, Deus.

Moss was already proven as one of the best WR's in the NFL, and also known as a good X and O guy who learned quickly and was 'football smart.'

The whole key to the deal supposedly came when he didn't even flinch for a second when the Pats put out a feeler for him, telling him that he would not be making much money at all--at least until he proved himself. I think that proved to them that he was certainly worth the relatively low risk.

Wallace on the other hand---still has a TON to prove in many areas, and is supposedly looking for 'elite' WR money. That's a pretty big gamble when trying to assess whether he can read the defense, run the entire route tree, be in the exact same place in that split-second instance, and develop a winning rapport with Brady.

He's proven that he can flourish (at times) in a backyard football system where the QB runs around for his life, hoping for enough time for his guys to get open. It certainly seems as though they do things a bit differently in Pittsburgh in regards to their offensive scheming and execution.

One was an extremely low risk who had already proven himself as being a superstar. One is an extremely high risk, who has not proven to be anywhere close in Moss' league.

I get what you're saying, that we shouldn't make assumptions on whether or not Wallace could fit here; but in the end he's not worth the risk AND #1 WR money just to get equal targets with 3 other guys (Welker, Hernandez, Gronkowski). No way in hell that this team is going to pay anyone like that top-tier #1 WR money. There's just not enough balls to go around. It would be senseless. We can still stretch the field to some degree and get better production from someone a lot cheaper, and possibly even more polished and proven (see Wayne, Reggie).

Just my opinion of course, buddy. Not trying to say that you are incorrect/and I am correct; just that I'm not sure about the comparison + I can understand those who aren't fully buying into the Mike Wallace hype.