The trade

[DarrylS]

Why does there have to be more to this trade than meets the eye? The market wasn't there for Cassel to get a 1st round pick in return. That likely means that there were far fewer teams in play than we thought. The Chiefs (possibly thinking they were bidding against themselves) were hesitant to trade the #34 pick straight up for Cassel. Vrabel (a possible cap casualty down the line) was the sweetener needed to close the deal. That is the deal as it appears on the surface...so why is it so hard to believe?

While nobody knows the discussions between Belichick and Pioli, it is just silly to believe that Belichick had a much better offer for Cassel (with or without Vrabel) and decided to take less to deal with KC. And I doubt Pioli is going to be doing any favors for Belichick in the future.

Why not wait, play the field and see if something materializes? Very little is going to change between now and the draft that would raise the trade profile of Cassel...but a whole lot could change to lower it. Stafford and Sanchez blow everyone away at their pro days. A 2nd tier QB (like Henne last year) starts to look like a solid and cheaper alternative. A couple of big FA signings prevent interested teams from meeting Cassel's contract terms. You get the idea.

I've said all along that not trading Cassel would be a disaster for the Pats. Cassel had to go even if it meant compromising on the draft pick or even using Vrabel to make it happen.

Just 6 months ago, Cassel struggled to make the Pats roster. 4 months ago, he was a .500 QB running a restricted playbook and hesitant to throw between or over defenders. His huge 2nd half mitigates this a bit, but doesn't erase it entirely. That is a serious risk for a new coach or GM to take on. Keeping pick #3 and getting Vrabel to mentor his defense allows Pioli to manage that risk. Sometimes the simplest explanations make the most sense.

Like these thoughts, not only rational... but appropo for the "economy" of the Patriots way of doing business... they needed the cap space as I suspect they will continue to be big players in FA... they gauged the offer on the table and it was the best one.. Vrabel is getting older and his value to the Chiefs if more than his value to the Pats...

There is a lot on the fire right now, and am confident that the team that will take the field in Sept will not be a team in the bottom of the league in red zone D or a team with patchwork CB's...

We had a kickass team with few holes, we still have a kick ass team... but a team with a ton of capital that this franchise will wheel and deal... and a ton of cap space... stay tuned this ain't over.

 

[Water Boy]

Seriously, would you kindly just stop before I say something that gets me put in the penalty box? Get this through your head:

I don't have a problem with the trade. I don't mind that Belichick gave Pioli a parting gift. I do, however, mind people who are acting as if this was the best the Patriots could do when we know that there were better deals out there (assuming the reports aren't all false).

What reports?

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

What reports?

go back a couple pages. he posted all the links.

 

[ivanvamp]

As I said, if the reports are shown to be false, some of the evidence is gone. That still doesn't justify the fast agreement, but it will at least be some tiny shred of justification that the Patriots can sucker the public with should they so choose.

Deus, I want to make sure I understand your argument correctly.

(1) The Patriots had already spoken with KC and there is good evidence that they had already agreed upon this deal before free agency started (i.e., Vrabel is already in KC for his physical).

(2) There is evidence that another, better, deal could have been made. The reports that NE was approached, for example, by Tampa Bay regarding a 3-way deal in which NE gets Tampa's first and third round picks in 2009, Denver gets Cassel, and TB gets Cutler.

(3) The deal reported in (2) is a better deal than the deal they actually made with KC.

(4) Why would the Patriots take a lesser offer? Two possibilities: (a) BB wanted to do Pioli a little favor and give him a discount; or (b) BB had already made a deal with KC in principle and didn't feel like they could pull out, even after the better offer appeared.

I *think* that's the argument.

I think the critique would have to come in premise (2). While some vague reports have indicated that it was NE, not Denver or TB, that turned down the 3-way deal, the most solid sources and stories seem to report that it was Tampa that wanted Cutler and approached NE and Denver about it, and it was *Denver* that said no. Cutler is all upset that Denver even considered it, but that says more about him than about McDaniels. So I think it's questionable that your second premise is accurate.

Now, if it *is* accurate, I don't know why the Pats would turn down a better deal. I don't necessarily think he just did Pioli a favor, unless he knew that there would/could be a quid pro quo coming down the pike. And I don't think that he would hesitate to "reneg" on a verbal agreement. A quick phone call might go like this: "Uh Scott, I just got offered Tampa's first and third for Cassel. We've been talking about Cassel + Vrabel for your 2nd. You throw in a 2010 second and we'll sign it. But, you understand, that if I've got a better deal here I have to explore it." And Pioli certainly would understand.

So the conclusion (premise 4) and premise (2) seem a bit shaky.

 

[Water Boy]

I don't know what to tell you. Denver, evidently, wasn't willing to trade Cutler for Cassel.

Maybe Denver wanted our #2 with Cassel. Then you could argue we would be better off doing that. But as it was, there was no deal. There was no option. Denver would be getting Cassel for Cutler, does that sound like a good deal to you ? We would have had to add to the deal and weren't willing to do so. There was no option to get TB's #1. TB didn't want to do their #1 for Cassel and Denver didn't want to do Cutler for Cassel. It would have been nice if they had wanted to but they didn't.

Especially considering that Cutler has put up better numbers than Cassel and is under a very cap friendly rookie contract.

 

[BillyD123]

Honestly, I could care less what Woody Page writes about the Josh and Cutler riff. I believe Cutler has a reputation of being a Prima Donna. Like he considers the Bronco's as his team. Much like Bledsoe under Pete Carrol. When BB came to town, Bledsoe had to wise up to the fact that it was BB's team. Page writes like Josh has to smooth this over somehow. IMO Once the head coach feels he has to explain himself to a player or a sports writer. He's lost the team. Denver willl come around on how the new coach does business.

 

[Water Boy]

"Bill Belichick wouldn’t do his mother a favor”

I think if anyone was done a favor by BB, it was Mike Vrabel, who gets to keep his money and was agreeable to going to KC.

 

[patsox23]

There not the same. There's a year lost on the contract. Furthermore, there was no need to cut Vrabel as a cap casualty.

Well, I guess that settles it then. Quick question - how the Hell do you know?

 

[Seneschal2]

I'm speculating here, but I'm guessing that the Pats told teams 'give us your best offer' and some of those teams thought they could wait...

Sounds about right.

And then Vrabel was traded to KC with unannounced compensation, leading fans (and some teams) to wonder: Will this be part of a Cassel trade? Then, word leaks that a trade is in the works (but not finalized) between KC and the Pats for Cassel, leaving the interested teams faced with an 11th hour deadline to work their own deal. The clock was ticking throughout...none of the teams presented a far better compensation package for Cassel's services, leaving the slow poke fence sitters out of the picture as the clock expires.

And for those wondering -- what clock? The clock according to the Pats organization. As I've mentioned before, this was a timely issue for BB & Co. And he had a bird in the hand deal in place with Pioli.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

So your theory is that the team now has deals done and they haven't been announced? And part b of the theory is that those deals required the extra space that Vrabel's contract gave?

I'd agree on the theory. I don't think BB went on vacation.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

it's too bad we didn't swap firsts with KC. I know... I'm dreaming

 

[WhiZa]

Deus, I want to make sure I understand your argument correctly.

(1) The Patriots had already spoken with KC and there is good evidence that they had already agreed upon this deal before free agency started (i.e., Vrabel is already in KC for his physical).

(2) There is evidence that another, better, deal could have been made. The reports that NE was approached, for example, by Tampa Bay regarding a 3-way deal in which NE gets Tampa's first and third round picks in 2009, Denver gets Cassel, and TB gets Cutler.

(3) The deal reported in (2) is a better deal than the deal they actually made with KC.

(4) Why would the Patriots take a lesser offer? Two possibilities: (a) BB wanted to do Pioli a little favor and give him a discount; or (b) BB had already made a deal with KC in principle and didn't feel like they could pull out, even after the better offer appeared.

I *think* that's the argument.

I think the critique would have to come in premise (2). While some vague reports have indicated that it was NE, not Denver or TB, that turned down the 3-way deal, the most solid sources and stories seem to report that it was Tampa that wanted Cutler and approached NE and Denver about it, and it was *Denver* that said no. Cutler is all upset that Denver even considered it, but that says more about him than about McDaniels. So I think it's questionable that your second premise is accurate.

Now, if it *is* accurate, I don't know why the Pats would turn down a better deal. I don't necessarily think he just did Pioli a favor, unless he knew that there would/could be a quid pro quo coming down the pike. And I don't think that he would hesitate to "reneg" on a verbal agreement. A quick phone call might go like this: "Uh Scott, I just got offered Tampa's first and third for Cassel. We've been talking about Cassel + Vrabel for your 2nd. You throw in a 2010 second and we'll sign it. But, you understand, that if I've got a better deal here I have to explore it." And Pioli certainly would understand.

So the conclusion (premise 4) and premise (2) seem a bit shaky.

You sound like you write up contracts for a living. I think the reason the deal was not done friday instead of saturday was because of #2.

The way I see it went down was the Pats asked for the #34 for just Cassel, then Pioli being a good negotiator threw in Vrabel, and the deal was done probably a while ago.

 

[patsox23]

Not sure if this was discussed? Was the deal for Cassel... The 34 pick overall, and only clearing Mike Vrabel's cap number? Not necessarily having Vrabel play for KC?
It's known, Vrabel wants to coach at Ohio State post NFL. He's played hurt the last few seasons. His family has been in New England for the past 8 years. Why would he want to up-root them, and play 1 or 2 years in KC in his declining years? So... What is keeping him from retiring during this off season?

I think there has to be more to it. Mike played his heart out in NE. To me... He's the kind of guy the coaches/owners take care of when his best days are behind him.

I think they just did.

As for "Why would he keep playing this season?" I'll give you 4.4 million reasons why.

 

[BillyD123]

I'll give you 4.4 million reasons why.
Only if he's healthy and makes the roster! Reports were, that his shoulder requires surgery. Just stiring the pot I guess. I'd love to see him as our LB coach.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, I guess that settles it then. Quick question - how the Hell do you know?

How do I know? Because his bonus hadn't yet come due.

 

[Deus Irae]

Anyone still want to say the offer wasn't there and that Belichick had no choice?

ProFootballTalk.com - DID BUCS’ OFFER COME TOO LATE?

On Cassel, Pats Weren't Waiting Around - NBC Sports Blogs

Deals happen when deadlines approach or artificial deadlines pass, and Belichick didn't bother waiting. He did his friend a solid.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Anyone still want to say the offer wasn't there and that Belichick had no choice?

ProFootballTalk.com - DID BUCS’ OFFER COME TOO LATE?

On Cassel, Pats Weren't Waiting Around - NBC Sports Blogs

Deals happen when deadlines approach or artificial deadlines pass, and Belichick didn't bother waiting. He did his friend a solid.

I wish I wouldn't of read that. Thanks for ruining my Sunday lol. A 1st and a 3rd lol shakes head........

 

[DW Toys]

If we had traded Cassel to the Titans for their #1 pick, and cut Vrabel as a cap casualty would anyone be whining?
Essentially, thats just about what we did, because we got the 2nd pick in the 2nd, which is virtually the same as a late 1st.
I think Vrabel was thrown in because we didn't have the cap room to want to keep him, KC did and BB let Pioli have his rights instead of just cutting him.
There is no way we do this deal if BB intended to keep Vrabel on the roster, he wouldn't have traded him straight up for a 2nd with no replacement unless he was gone already.
Expect a quid pro quo favor back from Pioli.

O.K., This was not a bad thought.

An extra fifth and there would be no lynching party forming as people search for their pitch forks and torches.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

I think there was a three way that didn't work, then maybe teams with interest that couldn't work out a deal with Cassel and compensation with us. There's a big difference between interest and cash on the barrel.

Our bargaining position was weak because everyone knew we couldn't afford to keep his salary for a few weeks, much less all next season.

I agree Vrabel was a throw in. We made it look like a trade to save face. They want to blow up the linebacker position (get younger and/or more athletic) and he saves us more than Bruschi would.

Alright....here is the big question. That #34 pick is going to be under extraordinary pressure to be a "right-now-by-God" starter and always from hereafter be known as........ THE Cassel/Vrabel player. If this kid is going to be the next CJ or at this point Terrence "hurt again...but I am still very short" Wheatley, the crowds will draw restless.

Let's be honest. Our best, most fun year as a Pats fan was when we went hard into FA and player trades. Our high draft picks very seldom play right away (see Mayo). Other than Mayo, we have had to suffer with "Don't touch me because it will hurt" Maroney, "Metal mitts. Me... Block?" Watson, and even "Can't wait to be an FA" Hobbs to some extent. We jump up in the draft to get..........Matthew "By-God" Slater.

Let's step up to the plate again and go FA wild. It seems that we have fairly good luck with the UDFA class as much as our picks. Last year after Mayo...O'Connell (who knows), Wheatley (see above), Wilhite (JAG for now), Slater...(please), Crable (MIA) and Bo Rudd, how was our draft?

Let's go after Peppers, Bodden should be signed already by now, how about Sean Jones and why not Housh for a few years? He is a Gaffney upgrade now that he found out he had to cancel his new Leer Jet order.

Correct me if I am wrong. Are not TJ and Moss the same age?....and Brady?
DW Toys

 

[Warren94]

let's hypothetically say that Curry falls for some strange reason. the 2nd we just received and the #1 we could trade to #10....

they're is always someone who falls in the draft. Leverage.