The trade

[nashvillepatsfan]

Then re-read the previous posts, because it's pretty clear. But, since people are intent on deliberately missing the painfully obvious, here's Cutler's take for you:

Video Library - cbs4denver.com

and more on the topic:

Broncos Forums - View Single Post - Cutler speaks about trade talks.

Broncos Forums - View Single Post - Cutler speaks about trade talks.

Thank you for posting these links. However, in the video, Cutler only made a comment about McD being familiar with Cassel, and never mentions anything about the Pats trying to work a trade.

As for the other links. Are we really supposed to believe whats said on a message board from a guy who calls himself "g-money", and is quoting Mort??????? I still see no evidence that BB did something wrong. Pure speculation is all i see.

 

[BelichickFan]

Rotoworld is also quoting Mort:

ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports that the Patriots turned down a package from the Bucs in a possible three-way Matt Cassel deal that included a first- and third-round pick.
In this scenario, the Patriots would have received the picks, Denver would get Matt Cassel, and Tampa would get Jay Cutler. But there has to be more to the story. Why would the Patriots turn down better picks? One admittedly speculative guess is that the deal with the Chiefs was already verbally agreed to at this point, and the Patriots couldn't back out. Mike Vrabel, after all, was in Kansas City Friday. Mar. 1 - 1:40 am et

And they're also repeating what Shefter said :

"NFL Network's Adam Schefter reported earlier Saturday that the team (Denver) just listened to other proposals (for Cutler)."

Remember the last time Mort and Shefter disagreed ? Shanahan didn't end up in KC did he ?

 

[BradyBranch39]

To clarify, I'm not saying I believe Mort or that Mort is a good source... but this KC fan is not the only person who heard Mort say that.

 

[makoute]

9NEWS.com | Colorado's Online News Leader | Report: Broncos mull Cutler trade

DENVER - According to published reports, the Denver Broncos considered deals this week which would have sent quarterback Jay Cutler packing - rumors that angered the Broncos' passer.

Adam Schefter of the NFL Network reports the Broncos were approached by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers who were trying to swing a three-way deal with the New England Patriots which would have sent Cutler to Tampa and brought quarterback Matt Cassel to Denver.

According to Schefter, the Broncos mulled the deal, but ultimately decided against it.

The report also says the Broncos were also approached by the Detroit Lions regarding a similar three-way deal which would have netted them Cassel. Again, the Broncos entertained the deal, but opted against the move.

"Of course, there is fallout to this," Schefter told 9NEWS. "Jay Cutler is aware of all the storylines going out there, he is none too pleased about it. So, Denver is in the process of repairing that relationship. I believe they'll get it repaired."

Both deals fell by the wayside as Cassel was dealt to the division rival Kansas City Chiefs, along with linebacker Mike Vrabel, in exchange for the 34th overall pick in the 2009 draft.

The Broncos deny any intention to trade Cutler, Shefter says.

"These are the things you go through as other teams call you and try to make a deal," Shefter said. "And Denver feels as if it got caught in the crosshairs and it didn't do anything wrong. They didn't shop Jay Cutler. They never tried to make a deal. Other teams came to the Broncos and obviously this leaked out, and once it leaked out, that's where problems arose." (end article)


So it sounds to me like the whole thing was blown out of proportion. My question is this. If the Broncos were really willing to offer a first rounder and Cutler, or even just a first rounder alone, why would the Pats trade Cassel for only a second round pick? That makes no sense at all.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Rotoworld is also quoting Mort:

ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports that the Patriots turned down a package from the Bucs in a possible three-way Matt Cassel deal that included a first- and third-round pick.
In this scenario, the Patriots would have received the picks, Denver would get Matt Cassel, and Tampa would get Jay Cutler. But there has to be more to the story. Why would the Patriots turn down better picks? One admittedly speculative guess is that the deal with the Chiefs was already verbally agreed to at this point, and the Patriots couldn't back out. Mike Vrabel, after all, was in Kansas City Friday. Mar. 1 - 1:40 am et

Well, assuming this is true, I find it hard to believe that BB would not take the 1st, and 3rd. That wouldnt make sense. Liek you said, maybe the deal was done, and they couldnt back out at that point. Who knows, im tired of guessing

 

[BelichickFan]

Mort's report is here :

Broncos Tried To Trade Jay Cutler? - ESPN Video - ESPN

But he doesn't know, if you listen it's clear that he says "I think" before saying what the Patriots could have had and listening it's also clear that he's speculating.

When you have Shefter vs. Mort you believe Shefter especially involving his old hometown team the Broncos.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

9NEWS.com | Colorado's Online News Leader | Report: Broncos mull Cutler trade

DENVER - According to published reports, the Denver Broncos considered deals this week which would have sent quarterback Jay Cutler packing - rumors that angered the Broncos' passer.

Adam Schefter of the NFL Network reports the Broncos were approached by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers who were trying to swing a three-way deal with the New England Patriots which would have sent Cutler to Tampa and brought quarterback Matt Cassel to Denver.

According to Schefter, the Broncos mulled the deal, but ultimately decided against it.

The report also says the Broncos were also approached by the Detroit Lions regarding a similar three-way deal which would have netted them Cassel. Again, the Broncos entertained the deal, but opted against the move.

"Of course, there is fallout to this," Schefter told 9NEWS. "Jay Cutler is aware of all the storylines going out there, he is none too pleased about it. So, Denver is in the process of repairing that relationship. I believe they'll get it repaired."

Both deals fell by the wayside as Cassel was dealt to the division rival Kansas City Chiefs, along with linebacker Mike Vrabel, in exchange for the 34th overall pick in the 2009 draft.

The Broncos deny any intention to trade Cutler, Shefter says.

"These are the things you go through as other teams call you and try to make a deal," Shefter said. "And Denver feels as if it got caught in the crosshairs and it didn't do anything wrong. They didn't shop Jay Cutler. They never tried to make a deal. Other teams came to the Broncos and obviously this leaked out, and once it leaked out, that's where problems arose." (end article)


So it sounds to me like the whole thing was blown out of proportion. My question is this. If the Broncos were really willing to offer a first rounder and Cutler, or even just a first rounder alone, why would the Pats trade Cassel for only a second round pick? That makes no sense at all.

Now THIS, makes sense to me. Thanks for the post.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Why does there have to be more to this trade than meets the eye? The market wasn't there for Cassel to get a 1st round pick in return. That likely means that there were far fewer teams in play than we thought. The Chiefs (possibly thinking they were bidding against themselves) were hesitant to trade the #34 pick straight up for Cassel. Vrabel (a possible cap casualty down the line) was the sweetener needed to close the deal. That is the deal as it appears on the surface...so why is it so hard to believe?

While nobody knows the discussions between Belichick and Pioli, it is just silly to believe that Belichick had a much better offer for Cassel (with or without Vrabel) and decided to take less to deal with KC. And I doubt Pioli is going to be doing any favors for Belichick in the future.

Why not wait, play the field and see if something materializes? Very little is going to change between now and the draft that would raise the trade profile of Cassel...but a whole lot could change to lower it. Stafford and Sanchez blow everyone away at their pro days. A 2nd tier QB (like Henne last year) starts to look like a solid and cheaper alternative. A couple of big FA signings prevent interested teams from meeting Cassel's contract terms. You get the idea.

I've said all along that not trading Cassel would be a disaster for the Pats. Cassel had to go even if it meant compromising on the draft pick or even using Vrabel to make it happen.

Just 6 months ago, Cassel struggled to make the Pats roster. 4 months ago, he was a .500 QB running a restricted playbook and hesitant to throw between or over defenders. His huge 2nd half mitigates this a bit, but doesn't erase it entirely. That is a serious risk for a new coach or GM to take on. Keeping pick #3 and getting Vrabel to mentor his defense allows Pioli to manage that risk. Sometimes the simplest explanations make the most sense.

Spot on...........

 

[Deus Irae]

Ok, the promised timeline:

On 2/7 I speculated that the Patriots might already have a deal in the works, based upon how quickly the tender and acceptance were made:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/214703-espn-cassel-has-accepted-franchise-tender-merged-page2.html#post1277351

I bring that up to show 2 things:

1.) I'm not just pulling this out of my ass today

2.) I had at least some reason to be following this nonsense over the past 2 days.


2/27/2009 at 12:01 am

The "new year" kicks off and the free agency frenzy begins



2/27/2009 On or about 2:24 pm

It is reported that Vrabel has been traded to the Chiefs for an undisclosed draft pick and is in Kansas City to take his physical


2/28/2009

The Cassel portion of the trade is brought forth.


Now, this is an abbreviated timeline because it should be pretty obvious that there was not a lot of time to build up interest in Cassel taken once the trading became allowed. I could go information bit by information bit, but there should be no need. Approximately 14 hours after the start of the free agency period, the deal was done at least enough to have Vrabel taking his physical. Are you people seriously going to try claiming that there was no interest and "it is what it is" when a deal was done in the first day?


Come on. I think more highly of most of you than that.

 

[BradyBranch39]

Mort's report is here :

Broncos Tried To Trade Jay Cutler? - ESPN Video - ESPN

But he doesn't know, if you listen it's clear that he says "I think" before saying what the Patriots could have had and listening it's also clear that he's speculating.

When you have Shefter vs. Mort you believe Shefter especially involving his old hometown team the Broncos.

Yea, I tried watching that, but my browser froze about 30 seconds into it.

 

[BelichickFan]

Are you people seriously going to try claiming that there was no interest and "it is what it is" when a deal was done in the first day?

Yes because teams have had plenty of time to express an interest. Minnesota traded for a QB after Cassel was franchised. Mort say one thing. Shefter says the opposite. Casserly says he couldn't find many interested teams.

I do think "it is what it is" and that this is the deal Belichick liked the best of what was offered. If something came in late, too late, then shame on that team for not being more forthright with the offer earlier when I imagine the Patriots were gauging interest.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes because teams have had plenty of time to express an interest. Minnesota traded for a QB after Cassel was franchised. Mort say one thing. Shefter says the opposite. Casserly says he couldn't find many interested teams.

I do think "it is what it is" and that this is the deal Belichick liked the best of what was offered. If something came in late, too late, then shame on that team for not being more forthright with the offer earlier when I imagine the Patriots were gauging interest.

Ok, so you've never seen how bidding and negotiations work, then. Now I understand.

Why is there no new CBA in place for the NFL? Why does almost every CBA get passed only as the expiration deadline approaches or after the previous CBA has already expired?

 

[BelichickFan]

Ok, so you've never seen how bidding and negotiations work, then. Now I understand.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree but Shefter says the Broncos didn't make the offer and Mort, who's not as credible as Shefter to begin with, says "I think" before saying what the Patriots could have gotten in the deal that Shefter says wasn't offered . . . well, I haven't changed my mind on this.

 

[Deus Irae]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree but Shefter says the Broncos didn't make the offer and Mort, who's not as credible as Shefter to begin with, says "I think" before saying what the Patriots could have gotten in the deal that Shefter says wasn't offered . . . well, I haven't changed my mind on this.

As I said, if the reports are shown to be false, some of the evidence is gone. That still doesn't justify the fast agreement, but it will at least be some tiny shred of justification that the Patriots can sucker the public with should they so choose.

 

[jmt57]

Ok, so you've never seen how bidding and negotiations work, then. Now I understand.

Why is there no new CBA in place for the NFL? Why does almost every CBA get passed only as the expiration deadline approaches or after the previous CBA has already expired?

There were two separate deadlines in place, which makes this a difficult analogy: one for maximum trade value (i.e., a draft day trade), and one for maximum roster value (i.e., open up cap space for free agents).

I'm speculating here, but I'm guessing that the Pats told teams 'give us your best offer' and some of those teams thought they could wait; that the Pats were bluffing. They (the Pats) didn't want to screw around and took the first - best offer, rather than lose a potential free agent. And those other teams that lost out, will continue to be mired in mediocrity.

 

[TealSox]

As arm-chair General Managers, we might be able to assume that the Patriots front office knew that they were painting themselves into a corner by franchising Cassel.

First of all....

The franchise tag restricted their ability to sign free agents and/or extend contracts for roster players.

Second of the obvious facts...

They already had their franchise quarterback in Tom Brady and knew (first hand) about his ability to rehab and start the 2009 season. So having both QBs didn't make sense.

So...

One has to go. Because the obvious loser of musical chairs was Matt Cassel and he had 14 mil tied up in his franchise tag that cuffed them from signing/re-signing any player of moderate to high value, he had to go and had to go quick.

Why quick? Why not wait a couple weeks for the market to develop?

Maybe because....

A guy like Julius Peppers or Sean Jones would not last long in their current situations (franchise and free agent respectively).

Or because....

They could be caught being greedy and find themselves taking less or having 30 mil tied up in QBs.

What is hard to deny is that this move was a time-sensitive situation. Vrabel was due some sort of bonus, as I've read, and too much was tied up in the tag of Cassel.

 

[Pats726]

I do think that What BFan has been saying is closer to what has happened. Metaphors, Makoute and TealSox all have some common sense looks at what has happened.
Saying we all "KNOW" that there were other offers is quite silly..because we may know that there weres several attempts at deals...but that for one reason or another could not be done. Possible trades or exploring situations are NOT complete..and I am sure a LOT of options were explored...maybe more coming out in the next days. But understanding how all these came together in a time frame is not the same as looking back as to what could have happened. Deals explored looked at are NOT offers..as negotiations are NOT completed deals.
Obviously time WAS a factor and again to say that it "didn't need to happen today"...misses the many nuances and dynamics of what happened. None of us KNOW the real details of it all. Stories from reporters only tell part of the story and incomplete parts are the keys..
That the owrd leaked out that Vrabel was there for a physical might have thrown a money wrench into things and speeded things up. That his bonus was due could have been another time sensitive part of it aOR the fact that the Pats have other deals in the works and they needed the cap space. Who REALLY knows at this point?
Need time and space to see the larger picture before judging.
I will say that Josh seems to have gotten himself in a bit of hot water; so quick fast. I suspect there will be a lot more to come.

 

[BillyD123]

Not sure if this was discussed? Was the deal for Cassel... The 34 pick overall, and only clearing Mike Vrabel's cap number? Not necessarily having Vrabel play for KC?
It's known, Vrabel wants to coach at Ohio State post NFL. He's played hurt the last few seasons. His family has been in New England for the past 8 years. Why would he want to up-root them, and play 1 or 2 years in KC in his declining years? So... What is keeping him from retiring during this off season? He'd retire a Patriot wouldn't he? Does BB or SP have an entry level coaching job for Vrabel if, he indeed retires?
This whole thing about getting zip for Vrabel bugs me. I think there has to be more to it. Mike played his heart out in NE. To me... He's the kind of guy the coaches/owners take care of when his best days are behind him.

 

[Pats726]

Not sure if this was discussed? Was the deal for Cassel... The 34 pick overall, and only clearing Mike Vrabel's cap number? Not necessarily having Vrabel play for KC?
It's known, Vrabel wants to coach at Ohio State post NFL. He's played hurt the last few seasons. His family has been in New England for the past 8 years. Why would he want to up-root them, and play 1 or 2 years in KC in his declining years? So... What is keeping him from retiring during this off season? He'd retire a Patriot wouldn't he? Does BB or SP have an entry level coaching job for Vrabel if, he indeed retires?
This whole thing about getting zip for Vrabel bugs me. I think there has to be more to it. Mike played his heart out in NE. To me... He's the kind of guy the coaches/owners take care of when his best days are behind him.

I think a lot about Vrabel has not been looked at...I think maybe he IS being taken care of...money wise and being in a situation that he can make a difference with KC's younger players..Might this be sort of what he wishes for in his last years??

 

[Patjew]

Again.... there was INTEREST. That's all that's needed to kill the "It is..." argument. The deal didn't need to go down today. It was a favor for a friend. The Patriots took less than they could have gotten, and they clearly acted faster than was necessary. I'm fine with that. I'm not fine with people trying to pretend this was anything else.

You're seemingly close to alone on this one. "Interest" can evaporate very quickly, if it was ever sincere in the first place.

But mostly, that is just inconceivable to me. I cannot imagine that there is any history or basis of thinking that BB would do another team a favor if it hurt his own team.

"Bill Belichick wouldn’t do his mother a favor,” one NFL insider scoffed yesterday. “Anybody who looks at this deal and thinks he did doesn’t know him. Or the guys he just traded.”