The Trade - 8 Games Later

[Rob0729]

Come on. Please show me documentattion that says after 4,6,7,9, etc weeks on the team Jabar Gaffney didn't know the playbook. That is made up, which is my point.

If I remember correctly, he said it. But his production indicated it. The guy had 11 catches for 142 yards and a TD in ten games in the regular season. He had 8 catches for 104 yards Wild card weekend vs. the Jets and 10 catches for 103 yards and a TD in the Division Round vs. the Chargers.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. He doesn't play a lot. If he were uncoverable he would be playing a lot. When he does get open he catches the ball.
My point still stands that the percentage of throws resulting in catches are not the metric that would determine he should be thrown to more often. I don't know how you can disagree with that.
If you want to look up snaps played and do some kind of analysis to show he gets open a lot, feel free, but you thinking he does a lot with his reps is simply a guess.
What are his targets per rep, and how does that compare to others.
To state that he is not a primary option is shaky at best also, because you simply do not know. It certainly is possible that there is a 2 TE package specifically designed to make him the target due to a mismatch, and the passes he is catching are because of that, and the reason it is being used in a limited fashion is because it won't work except as a tendency breaker. (See the short yardage TDs) where they CLEARLY use Gronk as a heavily covered decoy to free up Wright.

First I never said he was uncoverable. I said he is getting open based on the # of receptions vs. the number of snaps he plays. For example, he played 21 snaps and caught 7 passes. That is an incredibly high snap to catch ratio.

As for why he doesn't have a lot of snaps, there are plenty of reasons. He is not a great blocker which probably limits a lot of snaps. The Pats only use one TE in a two back set. When the Pats need to max protect Brady like they did vs. the Jets a lot, they take him off the field too. And they did that with Hernandez a lot too.

And I think catches to snaps ratio does mean something. What difference does it make if the play is designed to be thrown to him or not when judging his ability to get open? Is it easier to get open when the play is drawn up to go to him?

Also, whenever Gronk is on the field with Wright, he is going to draw coverage away from Wright no matter the play unless a team is stupid enough to cover Gronk one on one (which the Bears were dumb enough to do a lot on Sunday). Whether Gronk is a decoy or the primary target, he is going to leave favorable match ups for other receivers. Amendola and Edelman have beneftitted from Gronk helping them have more favorable match up the last few weeks and haven't been nearly as productive as Wright minus the Amendola TD pass.

 

[Oswlek]

You have created some kind of idea that there are different levels of knowing.

No I haven't. There are different levels of knowing. That is incontestable fact.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm not sure what's being debated, given that Wright almost certainly knows the playbook at this point.

 

[shmessy]

I don't think there is.
We are talking about not putting a guy on the field because he doesn't know the plays.
You have created some kind of idea that there are different levels of knowing.
He either knows 100% of them or he doesn't.

That's ridiculous.

A receiver doesn't 100% get it or 0% get it.

Especially, for a TE/WR who is coming from a completely differnt system 3 days before the beginning of the season, with no OTA's and no TC there is something called a "learning curve".

The 100% or nuthin' argument is cvompletely silly.

He's getting more and more acclimated every week.

If you look back at the posts here when the trade was consummated many of us were CLEARLY saying that his worth would hopefully be evident by time of the playoffs, but not to expect anything much before T-Giving.

This guy has been far better than expected by observers who do not have expectations of someone picking up the playbook in 8 weeks of a season with no OTA and no TC.

 

[shmessy]

I'm not sure what's being debated, given that Wright almost certainly knows the playbook at this point.

I'm sure he knows the playbook. It takes time to get timing down with Brady and the other receivers.

That's what OTA's and TC are about.

There is far less teaching going on during the season.

 

[borg]

Mankins played in the AFCCG last year, no?

Mankins' replacements played in the games the O line got destroyed in this year...no?

 

[Oswlek]

That's ridiculous.

A receiver doesn't 100% get it or 0% get it.

Especially, for a TE/WR who is coming from a completely differnt system 3 days before the beginning of the season, with no OTA's and no TC there is something called a "learning curve".

The 100% or nuthin' argument is cvompletely silly.

He's getting more and more acclimated every week.

If you look back at the posts here when the trade was consummated many of us were CLEARLY saying that his worth would hopefully be evident by time of the playoffs, but not to expect anything much before T-Giving.

This guy has been far better than expected by observers who do not have expectations of someone picking up the playbook in 8 weeks of a season with no OTA and no TC.

Yup. It's the same reason why, after a flawless run through her piano recital, I say to my daughter, "play it again."

You don't practice until you get something right, you practice until you can't get it wrong (or a close approximation thereof). And it gets even more complicated when your actions are intertwined with teammates and potentially altered by what the opponent is doing.

I honestly never realized there was any controversy behind this thought process.

 

[shmessy]

Mankins' replacements played in the games the O line got destroyed in this year...no?

Yup. They are 6-2 the last two years at the halfway point, with or without his $10 million cap hit.

What's your point?

 

[shmessy]

Yup. It's the same reason why, after a flawless run through her piano recital I say to my daughter, "play it again."

You don't practice until you get something right, you practice until you can't get it wrong (or a close approximation thereof). And it gets even more complicated when your actions are intertwined with teammates and potentially altered by what the opponent is doing.

I honestly never realized there was any controversy behind this thought process.

Bingo, Oswlek. Especially with anything that involves precise timing with other people.

Evidently, some fans think it is an On-Off switch....and that OTA's and TC are for stretching muscles.

Very basically, OTA's and TC are for teaching. Much less of that can be done in the regular season. Maybe a day or two during the bye week schedule.

 

[shmessy]

Folks, this isn't hard to understand.

Many of us saw the need for patience with a new WR/TE coming in a few days before the season right away when the trade occurred. A constant theme was - - - 'Let's hope he can contribute by the playoffs':

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/logan-mankins-traded.1111534/

 

[Ring 6]

If I remember correctly, he said it. But his production indicated it. The guy had 11 catches for 142 yards and a TD in ten games in the regular season. He had 8 catches for 104 yards Wild card weekend vs. the Jets and 10 catches for 103 yards and a TD in the Division Round vs. the Chargers.

That doesn't mean he didn't know the playbook.

First I never said he was uncoverable. I said he is getting open based on the # of receptions vs. the number of snaps he plays. For example, he played 21 snaps and caught 7 passes. That is an incredibly high snap to catch ratio.

That is one game, mostly in garbage time. If you want to argue catches per snaps, then get the data.

As for why he doesn't have a lot of snaps, there are plenty of reasons. He is not a great blocker which probably limits a lot of snaps. The Pats only use one TE in a two back set. When the Pats need to max protect Brady like they did vs. the Jets a lot, they take him off the field too. And they did that with Hernandez a lot too.

Of course there are reasons, but if he 'deserved more passes' they would get him on the field more, wouldn't they

And I think catches to snaps ratio does mean something. What difference does it make if the play is designed to be thrown to him or not when judging his ability to get open? Is it easier to get open when the play is drawn up to go to him?

I don't understand this. As I said 3 times now, if you want to discuss catches per snap as a factor, provide the data.
My point was and has been that 17/18 targets does not indicate whether he deserves more passes.
It seems that the responses I am getting either say he can't learn or assume something is happening without checking it out.

Also, whenever Gronk is on the field with Wright, he is going to draw coverage away from Wright no matter the play unless a team is stupid enough to cover Gronk one on one (which the Bears were dumb enough to do a lot on Sunday). Whether Gronk is a decoy or the primary target, he is going to leave favorable match ups for other receivers. Amendola and Edelman have beneftitted from Gronk helping them have more favorable match up the last few weeks and haven't been nearly as productive as Wright minus the Amendola TD pass.

Other than 1 game Wright has not been terribly productive. And as I said, Gronk drawing coverage to open opportunities for him would be a game plan thing that could explain his limited use.

 

[Ring 6]

Folks, this isn't hard to understand.

Many of us saw the need for patience with a new WR/TE coming in a few days before the season right away when the trade occurred. A constant theme was - - - 'Let's hope he can contribute by the playoffs':

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/logan-mankins-traded.1111534/

Are we really going to say 'most of us' on a message board is a fact and conclusive argument?

 

[Ring 6]

That's ridiculous.

A receiver doesn't 100% get it or 0% get it.

Yes they do when the topic is whether they know the plays.
That is what is being said here. He is playing less because he doesn't know the plays.
You either know them completely or don't.
Its not 100% or 0% is 100% or unacceptable.

Especially, for a TE/WR who is coming from a completely differnt system 3 days before the beginning of the season, with no OTA's and no TC there is something called a "learning curve".

Fitting in to the offense is not the same thing as knowing the playbook.

The 100% or nuthin' argument is cvompletely silly.

Again there are 2 choices you know all of the plays or you don't. To use the excuse that he doesn't know all the plays by now is whats silly.

He's getting more and more acclimated every week.

Possible but debatable. He played 5 snaps in the first half vs Chicago and didn't do much in the 2 games before that.
Look, I'm not saying I know the answer.
I'm saying there is a reason a guy catching 17/18 doesn't have more than 18 targets in 8 games.
I dismiss that its because he doesn't know the playbook.
My point was there is more to it than 17/18 and just throw it to him more.
Rather than discussion it has turned into he doesn't know the playbook.

If you look back at the posts here when the trade was consummated many of us were CLEARLY saying that his worth would hopefully be evident by time of the playoffs, but not to expect anything much before T-Giving.

Again, posters on a message stating their expectations is meaningless toward the real facts of what is happening.

This guy has been far better than expected by observers who do not have expectations of someone picking up the playbook in 8 weeks of a season with no OTA and no TC.

So you would consider it acceptable that after 8 weeks Tom Brady can call a play and Tim Wright doesn't know what to do on it? Really?

 

[shmessy]

Looks like Mayock agrees - - check out the last part of the Gronk analysis:

http://www.patriots.com/media-cente..._Moments/3741ce4e-a943-4d42-bf80-ad9bc0280bd5

 

[shmessy]

Are we really going to say 'most of us' on a message board is a fact and conclusive argument?

Where in my post do you see the word "most"?

 

[Ring 6]

Yup. It's the same reason why, after a flawless run through her piano recital, I say to my daughter, "play it again."

You don't practice until you get something right, you practice until you can't get it wrong (or a close approximation thereof). And it gets even more complicated when your actions are intertwined with teammates and potentially altered by what the opponent is doing.

I honestly never realized there was any controversy behind this thought process.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the claim that he doesn't know the playbook.
Are you telling me that you think Tom Brady can go in the huddle and call a play and Tim Wright hasn't learned what he does on that play yet? Does he sleep at practice? Does he not read his playbook?

There are myriad reasons that he could get better with more time in the system and working with Brady and his coaches, but I don't think he would even be active and maybe cut by now if he didn't know the playbook.

 

[Ring 6]

Looks like Mayock agrees - - check out the last part of the Gronk analysis:

http://www.patriots.com/media-cente..._Moments/3741ce4e-a943-4d42-bf80-ad9bc0280bd5

What does it say?

 

[Ring 6]

I'm sure he knows the playbook. It takes time to get timing down with Brady and the other receivers.

That's what OTA's and TC are about.

There is far less teaching going on during the season.

Then why are you disagreeing with me when I am saying he should know the playbook by now?

 

[shmessy]

So you would consider it acceptable that after 8 weeks Tom Brady can call a play and Tim Wright doesn't know what to do on it? Really?

There is something called "timing". Getting down the timing between a QB and a receiver takes........time and repetition.

Also, players new to a system tend to talk about how they can get to know a new system, but it takes time to play it without having to THINK about it.

These are all pretty widely known and talked about subjects. Not a new concept.

 

[shmessy]

What does it say?

I gave you the link. It's a video.