The Trade - 8 Games Later

[shmessy]

If we can play Chicago every week...the trade looks great!!

.....and Buffalo and Cincinatti.......

6-2. Same as last year. With a high 4th rounder coming, $7 million more in cap space and no Hoomanawanui as the #2 TE.

 

[shmessy]

T

Tampa Bay has a lot more and bigger problems than Mankins right now. Why you're continuing to put the onus on him is beyond me. You are aware that some teams can have very good players on them and still suck, right?

Aaahhhhhhh.......

So having a $10 million cap space hogging 33 year old left guard ISN'T a boon for a franchise???????

Who knew?

I never put the "onus" on him for Tampa's situation. I just wrote that he did not move the needle one inch up for them.

 

[Rob0729]

.....and Buffalo and Cincinatti.......

6-2. Same as last year. With a high 4th rounder coming, $7 million more in cap space and no Hoomanawanui as the #2 TE.

I swear every win the Pats have this year, the rhetoric is just the same. "Well, the Pats killed the Bengals, but did you see them get creamed against the Chiefs last week? Let's see how they do up in Buffalo before we give them credit." "The Pats killed the Bears, but they suck. Let's see how they do against Denver."

Every single convincing win this team has had this year is portrayed as some kind of fluke even though they have won by two or more TDs four times this season. Every single loss or close game is portrayed as "the real Patriots team". I just don't get it.

 

[Kontradiction]

Aaahhhhhhh.......
So having a $10 million cap space hogging 33 year old left guard ISN'T a boon for a franchise???????
Who knew?
I never put the "onus" on him for Tampa's situation. I just wrote that he did not move the needle one inch up for them.

It's not a problem if the team around him is playing well. The following are the personnel issues in Tampa Bay...

1. QB
2. RB
3. OL
4. TE
5. DE
6. CB
7. Coach

Now, given said issues at personnel, how much do you expect a very good LG to improve the situation? It seems a lot. My question is why? Surely you must know better. Or maybe you just haven't seen too many Bucs games this season...

 

[borg]

I swear every win the Pats have this year, the rhetoric is just the same. "Well, the Pats killed the Bengals, but did you see them get creamed against the Chiefs last week? Let's see how they do up in Buffalo before we give them credit." "The Pats killed the Bears, but they suck. Let's see how they do against Denver."

Every single convincing win this team has had this year is portrayed as some kind of fluke even though they have won by two or more TDs four times this season. Every single loss or close game is portrayed as "the real Patriots team". I just don't get it.

-Every game provides evidence about this team ...not just wins.
-The LOS for NE is an issue whether you choose to open your eyes or not.
-Teams that succeed in the playoffs own the LOS
-NE lost the LOS battle vs Denver in AFC Championship game last year
Big test Sunday......wish the trade deadline was next Tuesday

 

[Ring 6]

I have no idea or interest in your computer game of points. You claim that the OL has played well the last few weeks. Then WHO, pray-tell, is covering for "the likes of Wendell and Solder" now??????

Offensive lineman do not 'cover for' the players next to them at the expense of not blocking their own man. That just makes no sense. We are going to argue that one OL can't block his own man because he is worried that the guy next him might miss his block so he misses his own on purpose just in case? Thats just not the way football works.
A bad player next to you can make you not look as good as your good block is wasted by the guy who missed his, but no OL has ever failed to block his own man so he can go help in case the guy next to him misses.
So the point you are disputing is pointless because it is fabricated by the poster.

 

[Rob0729]

-Every game provides evidence about this team ...not just wins.
-The LOS for NE is an issue whether you choose to open your eyes or not.
-Teams that succeed in the playoffs own the LOS
-NE lost the LOS battle vs Denver in AFC Championship game last year
Big test Sunday......wish the trade deadline was next Tuesday

The LOS has not been as big of an issue in recent weeks especially with the line up of Solder, Connolly, Stark, Wendell, and Vollmer. Now if one of those guys go down, then it becomes a bigger issue, but this line up has been fairly solid when they all playing together.

Also, that line up is better than last year's line up. Both Connolly and Wendell have rebounded from bad years last year. Stork is a big upgrade from last year over what Wendell was.

Last year, Knighton overpowered a smallish Wendell. Knighton is still a handful for any center, but Stork should do a much better job against him than Wendell did last year.

The o-line is not as much of a problem as people are making it. People still see the o-line that they had at the beginning of the year and still projecting it to the o-line now. The current o-line is better than last year's o-line. Now last year's o-line sucked. So that isn't much of a compliment, but it is still far better than most give them credit for.

 

[BobDigital]

Well here are the facts as I see them. Also until we use the money I am not going to factor tat in and go based on player.

#1 Mankins would not have won us any of the games this year we lost. Still be 6-2.
#2 The Run offense has clearly suffered. This was banged home last game when the Patriots could not punch it in. Between the 20s they are probably fine tough.
#3 The Pass blocking the last few weeks has been just as good if not better.
#4 Tm Wright is a looking like a good addition as a 3rd/4th option.

So you lost something in the short yardage game but gained as far as WR threats and a redzone option. Also your pass blocking has come around and is arguably better.

Overall I think you need to consider it as draw or a win. I think though for it to be a clear win you need to use him. 17 receptions on 18 targets warrants more chances.

 

[Danger Zone]

Well here are the facts as I see them. Also until we use the money I am not going to factor tat in and go based on player.

#1 Mankins would not have won us any of the games this year we lost. Still be 6-2.
#2 The Run offense has clearly suffered. This was banged home last game when the Patriots could not punch it in. Between the 20s they are probably fine tough.
#3 The Pass blocking the last few weeks has been just as good if not better.
#4 Tm Wright is a looking like a good addition as a 3rd/4th option.

So you lost something in the short yardage game but gained as far as WR threats and a redzone option. Also your pass blocking has come around and is arguably better.

Overall I think you need to consider it as draw or a win. I think though for it to be a clear win you need to use him. 17 receptions on 18 targets warrants more chances.

#2 Run offense suffering might have to do more with the fact that our rookie up the middle RB was on our practice squad a few days ago. And at his best Im not sure if he's meant to be an up the middle RB.

 

[Ring 6]

17 receptions on 18 targets warrants more chances.

This is an interesting comment. Is success when thrown to an indication that you warrant more throws? Getting open and making the catch are 2 different skills. Getting open would warrant more chances. In other words, if you get open a lot, you get a lot of throws, but a guy who struggles to get open but does a great job of making the catch when he does wouldn't really deserve more throws.
Personally, I think Wright is going to be a role player who will continue to see the ball often in some games and rarely in others, based upon how we are being defended. He seems to be a guy who won't screw up if the coverage gives him the opportunity but is not extremely difficult to cover when the coverage favors his route.

 

[Ivan]

Yes, your argument about the Collins pick being a horrible pick because the Pats drafted Tavon Wilson the year before and Collins didn't fit a position of need was a really moronic argument. Thanks for calling yourself out on your stupidity on that one.

Actually Deus argument on Wilson was even worse because he claimed they should have taken player's who went in the next draft. It was hysterically funny.

And if he actually claimed that the Mankins deal cost them both games they lost this season then he is on crack, the idea that Mankins would have been the difference in the KC game is as absurd as they get.

 

[BobDigital]

#2 Run offense suffering might have to do more with the fact that our rookie up the middle RB was on our practice squad a few days ago. And at his best Im not sure if he's meant to be an up the middle RB.

Grey is 225 is a power runner by trade. Would it have maybe been better if we had Ridley? IDK.

All I do know is it does not matter who your RB is if your OL wins you that 1 yard. They ran 4 plays from the 1 and were unable to push for a yard. In fact in one attempt they were pushed back on what would have been a turnover on downs. Again, I am not saying I want to change this line. I like the interior of Connolly-Stork-Wendell and they are protecting Brady which is #1.

However it is no surprise that they will get stoned cause they are undersized.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

From Tampa Bay fan forums:

"It would be great if we can somehow unload Mankins' contract by trading him back to NE for even a 7th at this point. He gave up 7 sacks last year and was obviously regressing which is why BB probably disposed him onto us. He has yet again confirmed the theory that BB only parts with big names when they have nothing left in tank. The only good I can say about him is he still probably is the 2nd best lineman, which isn't saying much."


"No, the pathway to succes is by trading away draft picks and young talented players for 30yo players.

-Lovie"


"When I call them "talent evaluators" I also include Josh McCown, Anthony Collins, Evan Dietch-Smith, Michael Johnson, Alterran Verner, Login Mankins, that other guard we traded for and cut, and so on."



"LMAO! So funny that the same fans who praised all of these offseason moves, especially the O-line are now criticizing them and labeling them bad moves."


"I never praised the move, for the Oline. I thought that was the biggest mistake".


"I think VJ gets dealt today, but it'll come up short of the 2nd they are asking. Prolly a 3rd and a conditional pick. Personally, I would prefer he not be dealt to New England. I'm tired of being their minor league team."


http://www.bbs.tbaybucs.com/topic/24402-is-it-time-for-a-trade/page-9



It sure looks like the Tampa Bay fans feel like they won the trade with us.

 

[JMC00]

.....and Buffalo and Cincinatti.......

6-2. Same as last year. With a high 4th rounder coming, $7 million more in cap space and no Hoomanawanui as the #2 TE.

Last 4 weeks-

"Cinci's line scares me"
"Buffalo's line scares the hell out of me"
"jests line is arguably the best in the league"
"Chicago's line could cause some problems"

This rhetoric will continue until the OL has a game where they struggle. Which then those people will say "See, I told you the line still sucks"

 

[BobDigital]

This is an interesting comment. Is success when thrown to an indication that you warrant more throws? Getting open and making the catch are 2 different skills. Getting open would warrant more chances. In other words, if you get open a lot, you get a lot of throws, but a guy who struggles to get open but does a great job of making the catch when he does wouldn't really deserve more throws.
Personally, I think Wright is going to be a role player who will continue to see the ball often in some games and rarely in others, based upon how we are being defended. He seems to be a guy who won't screw up if the coverage gives him the opportunity but is not extremely difficult to cover when the coverage favors his route.

Well it is not unusual for a player to get open but not be thrown to cause he is 4th progression or because an option Brady might like more is open as well. For example on that TD pass to Wright last game Gronk was open too but Wright was the first read so it went there.

I am not saying if you throw to him 80 more times you will have 75 receptions or anything. If you recall when Gronk left the game Wright became the #1 TE and was used heavily and able to produce when used heavily.

All I am saying is I think Wright is not given enough hot reads per game and his performance so far shows he deserves more plays called for him as a first look. Also it would take pressure off Gronk.

 

[Oswlek]

-Every game provides evidence about this team ...not just wins.
-The LOS for NE is an issue whether you choose to open your eyes or not.
-Teams that succeed in the playoffs own the LOS
-NE lost the LOS battle vs Denver in AFC Championship game last year
Big test Sunday......wish the trade deadline was next Tuesday

His point is that people grant the losses more weight than the wins. And vice versa if we are talking about opponents, whose close games are disregarded. Something I completely agree with.

As for the LOS, NE has been very good on OL for a month now despite only having their top unit once. I see no reason to be overly concerned about it. DL is a question mark, but let's see what they look like in December after Siliga returns and Walker/Easley get more acclimated.

 

[Oswlek]

Mankins might not be a plus pass protector, but Devey's third quarter in Miami was the worst thing I've ever seen on a Pats o-line.

Vollmer got rolled up on in the 3rd quarter, similar to what put him on IR last year, and Fleming subbed for him. He came back in because you can't feed a rookie RT to Cameron Wake, and that's when Wake went berserk. Until that point Vollmer was probably the Pats' best lineman.

The Pats offense went in the toilet in Miami because Wendell and Vollmer both got injured in the 3rd quarter, meaning the Pats had to ride out Devey's meltdown and couldn't give Solder the help he needed because Vollmer was walking wounded. If Mankins is active in place of Devey the Pats have a chance because you can chip to help your OTs so long as nobody's barreling through the B gaps consistently. As in, every play.

The trade of Mankins was a significant factor in the loss. The offense stays on the field longer with him, perhaps scores a few more points, but most importantly doesn't leave the defense on the field to die.

That said I was and am a big fan of the trade because playoff games are won in January not September, and I think Wright + random guard will be better for us then than Mankins + nobody, who was the player at Wright's position in camp.

It did hurt us in September though.

I stand corrected. From here on out, I'll conclude that NE would have won the Miami game with Mankins.

 

[Ring 6]

Well it is not unusual for a player to get open but not be thrown to cause he is 4th progression or because an option Brady might like more is open as well. For example on that TD pass to Wright last game Gronk was open too but Wright was the first read so it went there.

I am not saying if you throw to him 80 more times you will have 75 receptions or anything. If you recall when Gronk left the game Wright became the #1 TE and was used heavily and able to produce when used heavily.

All I am saying is I think Wright is not given enough hot reads per game and his performance so far shows he deserves more plays called for him as a first look. Also it would take pressure off Gronk.

Its hard to say. At this point I lean toward the way I described him, as a guy who catches it when he is open but does not have great 'get open skills'.

 

[dales804]

Last 4 weeks-

"Cinci's line scares me"
"Buffalo's line scares the hell out of me"
"jests line is arguably the best in the league"
"Chicago's line could cause some problems"

This rhetoric will continue until the OL has a game where they struggle. Which then those people will say "See, I told you the line still sucks"

It's the same thing with regards to Sam Monson and his "Brady declining" routine. I know he was going to be on WEEI today but I didn't listen. He can just keep saying it until it's true, so when Brady does actually decline, he can say "told you so!" Forget that he is completely wrong now, though.

 

[chasa]

Last 4 weeks-

"Cinci's line scares me"
"Buffalo's line scares the hell out of me"
"jests line is arguably the best in the league"
"Chicago's line could cause some problems"

This rhetoric will continue until the OL has a game where they struggle. Which then those people will say "See, I told you the line still sucks"

Ding ding ding!

Winner

Which giant stuffed animal do you want?

they are a Bunch of little Felgers.