The non-Chiefs market for Cassel -- Broncos/Bucs 3-way trade? [mergedx4]

[pats1]

Woody Paige - The Denver Post

Woody Paige
Broncos blow call on Cutler fiasco
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 03/01/2009 12:30:00 AM MST
Updated: 03/01/2009 01:07:29 AM MST

The Broncos have lost quarterback Jay Cutler.

If Josh McDaniels and Brian Xanders were thinking, even for a microsecond, about trading Jay Cutler, both must be fired today by Pat Bowlen. If the Broncos' owner was a co-conspirator in such a preposterous, outrageous thought, he should fire himself.

Do not suffer the fools gladly. They obviously know not what they do.

The Broncos' new hierarchy has lost Cutler's respect, his excitement about free agents just signed, his enthusiasm for a restructured offense and a totally retooled defense, his commitment to the team, his determination to make the Broncos a power again in the NFL and his efforts to prove his value. He has lost the certainty of being in Denver.

"I'm upset. I mean, I'm really shocked at this point," Cutler told The Post's Mike Klis on Saturday afternoon. The quarterback then said he didn't think the matter was settled, and he could still be traded.

The Pro Bowl quarterback wasn't any more stunned than everyone else in Colorado and throughout the nation when it was reported Saturday that his name was mentioned prominently — front and center — in a trade involving the Tampa Bay Bucs, the New England Patriots, the Detroit Lions, No. 1 draft choices and Matt Cassel.

The last time we heard of such an extreme, ludicrous deal, the Broncos got John Elway for a No. 1 draft pick, a reserve quarterback and three exhibition games between Denver and Baltimore. (Really). But the Broncos were on the right side then. This is the wrong message, wrong time, wrong thought, wrong men at the wheel.

...

 

[PatsDeb]

Woody Paige saying "Do not suffer fools gladly." is the ultimate irony.

Poor Josh. Suffering those growing pains already. Does anyone really know whether he seriously considered this deal? The Bucs could have called and he said, "No way." right away and now he is being dragged through the mud. Welcome to the NFL.

 

[upstater1]

Re: We could have had pick #19 and KEPT Vrabel

Because I think so? I don't like Cutler and think Cassel has proved he can be a good qb at the NFL level. Why bring in a malcontent that couldn't get it done consistently under one of the best offensive coaches in the NFL with a solid offense? Why do you think think the way you do?

He's got a much higher evaluation among a majority of the league. This is why both Detroit and Tampa preferred him to Cassel.

 

[fair catch fryar]

Re: We could have had pick #19 and KEPT Vrabel

He's got a much higher evaluation among a majority of the league. This is why both Detroit and Tampa preferred him to Cassel.

And Cassel obviously has a higher evaluation from KC and Denver now because the both apparently wanted him.

 

[dhamz]

Re: We could have had pick #19 and KEPT Vrabel

And Cassel obviously has a higher evaluation from KC and Denver now because the both apparently wanted him.

Based on what?

Schefter says that Denver turned down the deal giving them Cassel and no one in the NFL has better Denver sources than Schefter. That would mean they value Cutler higher.

Pioli never had Cutler as a possibility so we have no idea who he'd have chosen.

 

[upstater1]

Re: We could have had pick #19 and KEPT Vrabel

And Cassel obviously has a higher evaluation from KC and Denver now because the both apparently wanted him.

How do you know this?

Was Pioli offered Cutler for the 34th pick in the draft?

At what point did the three-way trade fall through?

I could easily see Denver saying, you want us to give up Cutler straight up for Cassel and no picks? Sorry. Cough up a high draft choice first.

 

[maverick4]

He's being called out for immaturity as a HC and a kind of insensitivity or carelessness to situational issues... kind of sounds familiar.

Source: Spurned Cutler wants to be traded - AFC West - ESPN

Trade talk rattles Cutler - The Denver Post

 

[BelichickFan]

Re: We could have had pick #19 and KEPT Vrabel

Schefter says that Denver turned down the deal giving them Cassel and no one in the NFL has better Denver sources than Schefter.

That's true about Shefter in general and even more so involving the Broncos, the team he used to cover.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I like to be right, but sometimes I don't want to be right. This is one of those occasions. I have said all along out here, in some lengthy posts, that ultimately Matt's value would be driven only by the market and not by any other analytic or anecdotal assessments of what we, as Pats fans, think he might be worth.

I'm going to look at this purely as a market-driven transaction. I'm also going to assume that no one in football understands better the market for NFL talent on any given day than does Coach Belichick. I also assume that Belichick puts the best interests of the Patriots Franchise first, followed, but still as a distant "second," by the best interests of those whom he likes and have served him well. If you disagree with these assumptions, you can save your time and skip this post.

This was the market for Matt. Other Posters have pointed out correctly that Matt could effectively have quashed a Lions' deal. The Denver, Minnesota and Tampa speculation are just that, pure speculation. It is impossible for me to credit even a very low level of probability to the view that Belichick would not have satisfied himself as to the relative viability of those and other options. And a 34, as many have pointed out, is only two picks from round one.

Like most out here, I was initially shocked and angered. Then I went through a "denial" stage in which I assumed that BB had an ace up his sleeve or was just sticking it to the rest of the NFL in some way.

Now, I simply accept the facts as they are. This is the best kind of deal that could get done. Once he came to that conclusion, he took the opportunity to put two loyal people whom he likes and respects into a good situation, while offloading $20MM of cap in time to make some noise in the FA and Draft markets.

"It is what it is."

 

[rainmaker]

If there is any truth to this, Pioli should be calling Denver and offering Cassel for Cutler straight up. I like Cassel but Cutler is undoubtably the top young QB in the league now bar none. And if there is any truth to these rumors, why the heck wouldn't BB trade Cassel straight up for Cutler too? No QB needy team is going to not give up their 1st rounder for Cutler given what he has done over the last 3 years.

 

[upstater1]

How would Cassel have quashed any deal? No one says he HAS to sign with the Chiefs. They can franchise him.

As for the rest, since we're all making wild and crazy speculations, Vrabel was thrown in because Belichick didn't want him going back to his home in Ohio to play for Mangini.

He didn't send Cassel to Denver because BB knew that by leaking information out there about the Bronco's willingness to trade Cutler, he could effectively destroy that franchise for the next decade. The Broncos fans, on cue, are already doing the Patriots bidding. BB must have known Cutler was an idiot hothead who openly said he wouldn't be playing for the coaches.

He sent Cassel to KC because he knew Cassel benefited mightily from having Moss and Welker on the field, and that he would not succeed in the AFC.

With one trade, Belichick hurts three franchises, all for the price of making a selection 15 picks later than would have been otherwise possible.

 

[Mack Herron]

Did Chiefs rob Patriots with 34th pick? - AFC East - ESPN

 

[makoute]

If there is any truth to this, Pioli should be calling Denver and offering Cassel for Cutler straight up. I like Cassel but Cutler is undoubtably the top young QB in the league now bar none. And if there is any truth to these rumors, why the heck wouldn't BB trade Cassel straight up for Cutler too? No QB needy team is going to not give up their 1st rounder for Cutler given what he has done over the last 3 years.

Which is why the supposed trade that has the Pats getting the 12th overall pick is ridiculous. Why would Denver trade a probowl very young stud QB straight up for Matt Cassel? That's pretty much what the deal would be. Would anyone here trade Cassel for Cutler straight up, and have to pay Cassel more than you are paying Cutler.

 

[pats1]

Did Chiefs rob Patriots with 34th pick? - AFC East - ESPN

ProFootballTalk.com - BUYER BEWARE FOR CHIEFS?

 

[upstater1]

Which is why the supposed trade that has the Pats getting the 12th overall pick is ridiculous. Why would Denver trade a probowl very young stud QB straight up for Matt Cassel? That's pretty much what the deal would be. Would anyone here trade Cassel for Cutler straight up, and have to pay Cassel more than you are paying Cutler.

No. They wouldn't. Clearly, Denver was looking for Cassel plus picks.

I'll also say this: fans in Denver who think Cutler is untradeable are absolutely delusional.

San Diego traded Michael Vick for Drew Brees (a lesser QB supposedly) and Ladanian Tomlinson.

When someone gives you more than perceived value for a QB you are not entirely sold on, you trade him.

In this case, Cutler is worth more than just Cassel, and that's why he's still on Denver. Cutler is just delusional to believe that Denver should not listen to any trade proposals.

Denver HAS TO listen to trade proposals or they would be doing their franchise a disservice.

Go back to the Chargers example. Vick for Brees and Tomlinson.

 

[JMarr]

Re: We could have had pick #19 and KEPT Vrabel

Do teams try to torpedo other possible trades in the NFL like they do in other sports? Whether this is true or not, you sometimes have to wonder if other teams would collaborate in order stop a possible trade or transaction to stick NE or any other team for that matter in a pickle meaning that NE would be handcuffed to their salary cap # had they been unable to unload Cassel. The whole trade seems to have gone down rather quickly in order to create more cap space and take the best offer at the time.

Interesting point. Do I think that other teams would knowingly shoot themselves in the foot in order to stick it to the Pats? No (although NFL GMs and coaches have done far stranger things in the past). Do I think that most of the rest of the league would love to see the Pats saddled with a $15 million backup QB and almost no ability to make moves in FA or to extend players like Wilfork and Mankins? Absolutely.

 

[Theplayer]

Re: We could have had pick #19 and KEPT Vrabel

Some teams may prefer what they have seen out of Cutler rather than Cassel, who may still be a one year wonder/system quarterback. Who knows? Looks like both TB and Det wanted Cutler and not Cassel. KC and Den were the only potential destinations. I agree that the Pats may have been caught with their pants down, verbally agreeing to a trade that included Vrabel rather than trading for TBs 1st and 3rd round draft picks, as reported by ESPN.

As reported on rotoworld:
ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports that the Patriots turned down a package from the Bucs in a possible three-way Matt Cassel deal that included a first- and third-round pick.



In this scenario, the Patriots would have received the picks, Denver would get Matt Cassel, and Tampa would get Jay Cutler. But there has to be more to the story. Why would the Patriots turn down better picks? One admittedly speculative guess is that the deal with the Chiefs was already verbally agreed to at this point, and the Patriots couldn't back out. Mike Vrabel, after all, was in Kansas City Friday.

doesn't make sense...Once Belichick had the #34 in hand, don't you think he calls every other possible suiter and says something along the lines of.."I have #34, will you beat it?" That's all it would take.

 

[upstater1]

Re: We could have had pick #19 and KEPT Vrabel

doesn't make sense...Once Belichick had the #34 in hand, don't you think he calls every other possible suiter and says something along the lines of.."I have #34, will you beat it?" That's all it would take.

I'm sure he did that.

But then you consider that the Detroit and Tampa options began a day AFTER Vrabel was already in Kansas City.

Teams could have called him on his bluff by low-balling him, and he sent Vrabel on his way.

 

[makoute]

No. They wouldn't. Clearly, Denver was looking for Cassel plus picks.

I'll also say this: fans in Denver who think Cutler is untradeable are absolutely delusional.

San Diego traded Michael Vick for Drew Brees (a lesser QB supposedly) and Ladanian Tomlinson.

When someone gives you more than perceived value for a QB you are not entirely sold on, you trade him.

In this case, Cutler is worth more than just Cassel, and that's why he's still on Denver. Cutler is just delusional to believe that Denver should not listen to any trade proposals.

Denver HAS TO listen to trade proposals or they would be doing their franchise a disservice.

Go back to the Chargers example. Vick for Brees and Tomlinson.

Well according to what is being said, the trade basically came down to Cassel for Cutler, no one is saying Denver was going to get more than that, if that's the case, I don't see why Denver would make that deal.

 

[makoute]

Re: We could have had pick #19 and KEPT Vrabel

I'm sure he did that.

But then you consider that the Detroit and Tampa options began a day AFTER Vrabel was already in Kansas City.

Teams could have called him on his bluff by low-balling him, and he sent Vrabel on his way.

Can't it simply be that Denver wanted to keep Cutler?