The Case for Kelley Washington

[Rob0729]

They quit "officially" after game 6 of the season but it was a stupid idea letting your opponent know what you were going to do ahead of time. It rarely worked and everyone hated it.

It still doesn't change that your statement is patently wrong. Moss didn't make a fuss before it failed.

 

[mgcolby]

LOL! There is a reason no one tried to trade for this guy other than the Pats and Packers. Most teams do not want the headaches. It is generally believed that he has lost a step and he has an attitude problem. Most teams wouldn't touch Moss if he was a free agent and would take less than the Pats gave him. According to Adam Schefter the Pats weren't even interested in Moss until they saw how much he was willing to take less to get out of Oakland.

You are only kidding yourself with that statement.

I will conceed he might of given up a million or two to come here, but not much more. People are crazy to think teams would shell out money for Moss after they watched TO help drive Parcells to retirement and more importantly Moss help send Art Shell and now Mike Lombardi to the unemployment line.

The fact of the matter is Moss burned two teams. He hasn't been a stud WR in three seasons. He is a risk no matter who takes him at this point. No team was going to overpay for him. You are kidding yourself if you believe that.

Art Shell should not have been hired in the first place and the Raiders were 9-23 the two seasons prior to Moss's arrival. His last year in Minny the team won 8 games the next season they finished 9-7, but started off 2-5 under Culpepper. I don't see how he "burned two teams". I'm not defending him, just tossing out facts. He didn't help Oakland a whole lot - but neither has anyone else. I find it interesting that everyone will quickly say he ruined teams etc.. but yet the year after he leaves, we learn how messed up the Vikings organization was as a whole with players getting arrested, and the head coach scalping tickets, but yet Moss was the problem. Dito for Oakland - an owner who hasn't adapted to today's NFL, has hired retreads such as Norv Turner and Art Shell and a front office that does idiotic things like trade for Aaron Brooks - but again its Randy's fault. Sorry, but I don't buy it. Is he a saint? No! But he isn't a team destroyer either. He just happened to be the biggest superstar playing for two bad organizations - who didn't do himself any favors with some of his antics and the media (and fans) made him the fall guy ignoring everything else.

People are throwing around money for hot properties, not problem childs and people who have had down careers. Heck even hotter properties like Cato June got modest deals. Guys like Eric Molds and Keyshawn Johnson are having problems generating interest from teams.

That could be because Moulds is 34 and Keyshawn is 35 and neither of them are as talented as Moss.

 

[Rob0729]

If Moss went to the Colts you might have a different viewpoint on this.

Yeah, I do see a lot of hypocracy from some Pats fans. I wish could have seen some of these fans opinion on Moss before there was any rumbling of the Pats trading for him.

I don't how you can spin this not being a big deal at least in football terms. Anything that gets you kicked out of the game is a big deal in my book.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

If Moss went to the Colts you might have a different viewpoint on this.

Why would i care? I would laugh because how much Manning would be pissed off with Randy.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Moss said after it failed he never wanted it. Who knows if he pushed for it before it was implemented. Besides, it is just one example and it was after he was getting a reputation of being frustrated in 2004. Earlier in his career the Vikes constantly bent over backwards for the guy. Most teams do for their superstars. You are trying diffuse the overall point by arguing the minutia of the minor points. The overall point is the team constantly tried to bend over backwards to appease him. Whether something they did blew up in their face is another arguement that has no relevance.





After it failed. Show me one time he said he was against it before it failed. I'm sure if Moss had a monster year and the Vikes had a great season, he would have said anything.



Do you see Bruschi, Brady, Harrison, Vrabel, Seymour, etc. quit on their team if things are going bad. Moss has been seen going to the lockerroom when the game was still close in the final seconds. He has been seen walking off the field after an interception eventhough he should have been hustling after the ball. He talked about taking plays off in the NFC Championship game. You can spin it any way you want. You should never quit on your team no matter the situation,



No! A small handful of moron Packer fans deserved it. A couple of guys moon the Vikings bus when it was leaving the stadium and that gives Moss permission to fake moon a bunch of fans including children who had absolutely nothing to do with the incident?

Chad Jackson does not do anything that can be considered offensive. He does not moon opposing team fans. He tries to make funny celebration dances that does not blatantly offend the other team's fans.





It is an ejectable offense that can accrue additional fines and suspensions. In terms of football rules, it is a pretty big crime. Anything you do to get you ejected from the game is a self act and crime against the team. How exactly can Moss help his team in a game in the lockerroom. It is about doing what is best for the team and it was a selfish act that cost his team.

I'm sorry. Just because Moss is a Patriot, I am not going to just change my opinion on the guy and make excuses for his past problems. You can go on and make excuses for his poor behavior, but I am not.

I cant show you links during the timeframe where he said he didnt like it but several of his teammates said he did not like it during the time.

Guranteed he wont slack off one time here. In those cases he was just sick of the circumstances. What he did was wrong and everyone knows that and im not saying it was right but the guy dealt with losing crap all the time.

Moss mooning the crowd was hilarious since its not just a couple of guys its a whole crowd of people that do it every week. They deserved it and i laughed at it. Other than that celebration he doesnt do anything offensive. Chad Johnson by the way can piss off a lot of people with his antics. Moss 1 funny time, Chad Johnson 100+ funny times.

If he was ejected then its what he deserved but i still dont care about some guy spraying water on a official that was arguing with Moss all day.

Im not saying i want you to say HOORAYY MOSS = GREATNESSSSS!!!! or anything of that nature. I just want people like yourself to take into account that all of his incidences are more minor than they previously were reported. They are blown up because of the media.

 

[mgcolby]

By the way - the original post in this thread was an excellent one. Well thought out, cudo's to the thread starter.

 

[PatsMyBoyz!]

Yeah, I do see a lot of hypocracy from some Pats fans. I wish could have seen some of these fans opinion on Moss before there was any rumbling of the Pats trading for him

Even if fans expressed outright horror during the Moss rumors,the point is he's now a Patriot so, personally speaking, for now anyway I'm going to be positive,give him the benefit of the doubt,and be glad he's here. He's as much a part of this team as anyone else and what he did prior to this means nothing. The only thing that matters is what he does from now on, that he stays focused and gets out there and plays like he's capable of playing. I don't truly expect a repeat of his college days but I'll take 80% of that Randy Moss all day. The man was phenom back then. I'm willing to give him a shot.
All that said,he's going to be under a lot of pressure here,and he'll get more spotlight that he may have bargained for. The national media will be watching his every move both on the field and off;our own media will be ruthless the second he messes up. If it's spotlight he wants,it's spotlight he shall get,no doubt about it. We'll see how he handles it all,and definitely it will be interesting to see how Belichick handles him,especially in view of the new NFL regulations re media access (which I haven't yet read in any detail). So for now,I'll wait and see. I think he'll be ok in all aspects but Iat this point I'm not going to speculate on what he'll do in 08. Too many X factors right now.

 

[PatsMyBoyz!]

By the way - the original post in this thread was an excellent one. Well thought out, cudo's to the thread starter.

Agreed,and thanks to the poster for bringing Washington back into focus. With all the Moss talk he got a bit lost.

 

[Rob0729]

You are only kidding yourself with that statement.

Not kidding anyone. Speaking the truth. Moss has done little in the last three years to justify a big contract, he has a bad reputation, and he has been injury prone the last few years. TO was at least a stud WR when the Cowboys took him on and they only risked $5 million more than the Pats did in the first year and everyone agreed that the Cowboys would get one good year out of him at the time.

Art Shell should not have been hired in the first place and the Raiders were 9-23 the two seasons prior to Moss's arrival. His last year in Minny the team won 8 games the next season they finished 9-7, but started off 2-5 under Culpepper. I don't see how he "burned two teams". I'm not defending him, just tossing out facts. He didn't help Oakland a whole lot - but neither has anyone else. I find it interesting that everyone will quickly say he ruined teams etc.. but yet the year after he leaves, we learn how messed up the Vikings organization was as a whole with players getting arrested, and the head coach scalping tickets, but yet Moss was the problem. Dito for Oakland - an owner who hasn't adapted to today's NFL, has hired retreads such as Norv Turner and Art Shell and a front office that does idiotic things like trade for Aaron Brooks - but again its Randy's fault. Sorry, but I don't buy it. Is he a saint? No! But he isn't a team destroyer either. He just happened to be the biggest superstar playing for two bad organizations - who didn't do himself any favors with some of his antics and the media (and fans) made him the fall guy ignoring everything else.

If you don't think Moss going on the radio saying he wasn't going to try because no one else is didn't help sink Shell, you are kidding yourself. I never said he was the only reason, but if you don't think Moss played a factor you are crazy.

He did burn two teams. I didn't say he destroyed or ruin them, but he did act out with two teams and quit on them both. Who ever said he ruined the teams. He was a contributing factor to Shell getting fired. He was a distraction in Minnesotta.

I am not ignoring everything else, but you are ignoring that superstars are supposed to be leaders. Brady was pissed when Belichick traded away Branch. He could have just packed it in like Moss and said that if the Pats aren't going to give him WRs he isn't going to put himself on the line. Brady decided to take the offense on his back and work harder to get the WRs he had up to speed even if he wasn't happy with them. That is what superstars do.

You didn't see Warren Sapp and the Raiders defense pack it in. Sapp had his best year in years last year. He had his most sacks since 2000. That is what stars do.

That could be because Moulds is 34 and Keyshawn is 35 and neither of them are as talented as Moss.

And Keyshawn is better than Moss is at this point and you can't prove otherwise. The numbers show it. Moss could rebound, but he may not. But you can't prove Moss is better than Keyshawn at this point. Keyshawn has put up better numbers the last three years as a number 2 WR and he had Bledsoe throwing to him for two of them. So don't even pull the QB card. Moss had

 

[Rob0729]

I cant show you links during the timeframe where he said he didnt like it but several of his teammates said he did not like it during the time.

Guranteed he wont slack off one time here. In those cases he was just sick of the circumstances. What he did was wrong and everyone knows that and im not saying it was right but the guy dealt with losing crap all the time.

Moss mooning the crowd was hilarious since its not just a couple of guys its a whole crowd of people that do it every week. They deserved it and i laughed at it. Other than that celebration he doesnt do anything offensive. Chad Johnson by the way can piss off a lot of people with his antics. Moss 1 funny time, Chad Johnson 100+ funny times.

If he was ejected then its what he deserved but i still dont care about some guy spraying water on a official that was arguing with Moss all day.

Im not saying i want you to say HOORAYY MOSS = GREATNESSSSS!!!! or anything of that nature. I just want people like yourself to take into account that all of his incidences are more minor than they previously were reported. They are blown up because of the media.

You can't show links because he didn't say it. By the way, the fact he said he never wanted it after the fact is another character flaw. He totally threw Mike Tice under the bus on that.

If you thought Moss fake mooning the crowd was hilarious, you have a bad sense of humor. Even if it was done in appropriate company, it wasn't that funny. It was just wrong because kids watch the sport and it is inappropriate behavior to do in front of children.

As for the ref, it doesn't matter if he was arguing with Moss all day. First, it is usually the player who initiates an arguement with a ref so I put that back on Moss and a lack of professionalism. Second, the refs are the law on the field and if you don't like their calls, you deal with it. You have yet to give a legitmate excuse of why he did it. He was wrong and he let his team down.

The fact that there are a bunch of incidents is disturbing enough. Who cares if they were blown up by the media. It is the volume of incidents, not the severity.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

You can't show links because he didn't say it. By the way, the fact he said he never wanted it after the fact is another character flaw. He totally threw Mike Tice under the bus on that.

If you thought Moss fake mooning the crowd was hilarious, you have a bad sense of humor. Even if it was done in appropriate company, it wasn't that funny. It was just wrong because kids watch the sport and it is inappropriate behavior to do in front of children.

As for the ref, it doesn't matter if he was arguing with Moss all day. First, it is usually the player who initiates an arguement with a ref so I put that back on Moss and a lack of professionalism. Second, the refs are the law on the field and if you don't like their calls, you deal with it. You have yet to give a legitmate excuse of why he did it. He was wrong and he let his team down.

The fact that there are a bunch of incidents is disturbing enough. Who cares if they were blown up by the media. It is the volume of incidents, not the severity.

Blam. One link with more to follow

I have a bad sense of humor? I suppose watching guys like Joe Horn, Javon Walker, Chad Johnson and TJ Houshmandzadeh celebrate constantly is in good taste but when Moss does it one time its utter horror. I think your sense of humor is more out of whack than mine.

Dont care about the water bottle incident. Its not a big deal.

3 incidents is not many. Also he is considered a class act in the locker room who gets along with everyone.

 

[sebman2112]

With a team like the Pats and most other teams, it is the guaranteed money not the cap money. The fact that he is guaranteed more than $11 million in just bonuses in 2008 is huge. Cap money can be manipulated, but it is the guaranteed money that can't.

Unless Stallworth has an All Pro season or is willing to renegotiate a lot, it is a slam dunk that he will be playing somewhere else next year. He will need to have a 1,400 plus yard season for the Pats to honor his current contract after 2007.

That Roster bonus is basically a delayed signing bonus on a 6 year 33M contract. This way NE can figure out of they truelly want him before paying his signing bonus.

 

[sebman2112]

Huh?!? One game? A media related issue? It was an offensive philosophy implemented by Mike Tice and it was in tact for half a season. He scrapped it because trying to get Moss the ball at least 40% of the time was sinking the team and Moss was arrested in September of that season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2003/08/15/randy_ratio_ap/

As for Dillon, his off the field incidents are worse (although most of them happened when he was in high school), but his effort and on the field incidents are nowhere near as bad as Moss'. Dillon only had one incident when you can say he quit on his team. There are dozens of ones where you can point to Moss.

As for Moss having no problem with not being the center of the attention and he will love not being the star, where do you get this. Moss like most star WRs bask in the spotlight. Moss' childish behavior of the past (squirting the ref with a water bottle, fake mooning the Green Bay crowd, etc.) shouts as desperate attempts of "look at me" attitude.

I thought you said 30% of the time, now it was 40%?

Also, Dillon had some problems with his wife, a drug addiction problem, and some other things I'm not going into. Anyways, he had more problems than some of us remember.

 

[mgcolby]

Not kidding anyone. Speaking the truth. Moss has done little in the last three years to justify a big contract, he has a bad reputation, and he has been injury prone the last few years. TO was at least a stud WR when the Cowboys took him on and they only risked $5 million more than the Pats did in the first year and everyone agreed that the Cowboys would get one good year out of him at the time.

Justified or not someone would have paid him.

If you don't think Moss going on the radio saying he wasn't going to try because no one else is didn't help sink Shell, you are kidding yourself. I never said he was the only reason, but if you don't think Moss played a factor you are crazy.

I didn't say he wasn't a factor, I said he wasn't the only reason. Art Shell did plenty to get himself fired from a position he should not have been hired for in the first place. What he said on the radio was stupid but he truly sounded depressed.

He did burn two teams. I didn't say he destroyed or ruin them, but he did act out with two teams and quit on them both. Who ever said he ruined the teams. He was a contributing factor to Shell getting fired. He was a distraction in Minnesotta.

So wasn't Red Mcombs, Mike Tice and all of the other malcontents on that team. He was hurt his last season in Minny not sure how he quit on them. I believe he quit on the Raiders, but saying he burned them isn't something I would agree to. Again one could argue they burned him by expecting Aaron Brookes to run the offense.

I am not ignoring everything else, but you are ignoring that superstars are supposed to be leaders. Brady was pissed when Belichick traded away Branch. He could have just packed it in like Moss and said that if the Pats aren't going to give him WRs he isn't going to put himself on the line. Brady decided to take the offense on his back and work harder to get the WRs he had up to speed even if he wasn't happy with them. That is what superstars do.

Not every superstar is a leader and not every leader is a superstar. Superstar QB's are expected to be leaders but WR's? Most superstar WR's have the worst attitude on the team. Are you going to tell me Chad Johnson is a leader? He has a big mouth but I would hardly call him a leader.

How can a WR take the team on his back? He has absolutely no control over getting the ball. Brady has the ball in his hand every single snap and has total control over the offense and who receives the ball.

You didn't see Warren Sapp and the Raiders defense pack it in. Sapp had his best year in years last year. He had his most sacks since 2000. That is what stars do.

Great for him, I think the Defense was the only part of the team that didn't pack it in. No that is what you think stars do. Its not just stars in football who pack it in when the season goes down the ****ter, Manny and Pedro both come to mind.

And Keyshawn is better than Moss is at this point and you can't prove otherwise. The numbers show it. Moss could rebound, but he may not. But you can't prove Moss is better than Keyshawn at this point. Keyshawn has put up better numbers the last three years as a number 2 WR and he had Bledsoe throwing to him for two of them. So don't even pull the QB card. Moss had

I guarantee you are well within the minority on this opinion. This is stretching it just a tiny bit. Keyshawn put up better numbers the past three years because he was in functional offenses. Are you honestly going to compare Brookes to Bledsoe? When Bledsoe has protection he is/was one of the most accurate passers in the league, his problems are a lack of mobility and over confidence in his arm. Brookes outright sucks at everything QB and Collins was having enough struggles to retire!

.............................................................Rec YPC TD
2006 Carolina 24th in total offense - Johnson 70 11.6 4
Oakland 32nd in total offense - Moss 42 13.2 3 in 13 games

2005 Dallas 13th in total offense - Johnson 71 11.8 6
Oakland 21st in total offense - Moss 60 16.8 8

2004 Minny 4th in total offense - Moss 49 15.7 13 in 13 games
Dallas 14th in total offense - Johnson 70 14.0 6

And talk about quiting on your team didn't Keyshawn sit out in Tampa until he got traded? I can't recall Moss doing that. In your opinion Johnson is better simply because he had more catches? Considering he played in better offenses with better QB's, wasn't double teamed, averaged less YPC and had less TD's and played in six more games?

Consider the QB card pulled.

We get it you don't like Moss, but you are pushing the envelope on this. Especially with the Keyshawn statement. I've never been a fan of Moss, but I think the media has overblown the issues with him. And as the other poster pointed out, he is in a Pats uniform so I will give him the benefit of the doubt. If he is a malcontent or screws up I will be the first one to tell you that you were right. But that isn't going to happen, because he won't be expected to be a leader on this team. Which is a good thing and he won't be the media's only focus in the Pats locker room.

 

[sebman2112]

I think it is relevant to the extent that as a youth Dillon was in trouble and this is obviously more than anything Moss has ever done. But it's probably safe to say that if Dillon had no problems with the Law since he got into the NFL then it wasn't a concern for the Pats.

So the next step is to compare their "problems" between the day they got to the NFL and the day they were traded to the Pats.

Some of Dillons drug problems came later than Robo claims, and his troubles with his wife came later, as well. Anways, I really like Dillon and I think he was a good/great player I just think some of us are forgetting some of the reasons people used to call him a cancer, and why some Patriots fans were all against NE's picking him up.

 

[sebman2112]

And I bet most if not all were prior to his entering UW

He was arrested at least twice while a member of the Bengals (once for driving under the influence), which he then pleaded down to negligent driving and driving with a suspended license.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

He was arrested at least twice while a member of the Bengals (once for driving under the influence), which he then pleaded down to negligent driving and driving with a suspended license.

I listed them in this thread a few pages back, his whole list.

 

[Rob0729]

I thought you said 30% of the time, now it was 40%?

Also, Dillon had some problems with his wife, a drug addiction problem, and some other things I'm not going into. Anyways, he had more problems than some of us remember.

I thought it was 30% too. Aparently it is 40%. I didn't realize it and I corrected myself when I found the article that said it.

Dillon didn't have a drug problem in the NFL. It was before. Besides, I haven't really even gotten into the off the field stuff with Moss. I am concerned about on the field stuff. I am concerned that he has been in the drug program and may still be in it, but the other stuff doesn't really phase me off the field. I defy you to find where I mentioned the meter maid incident once before this post.

 

[Rob0729]

Justified or not someone would have paid him.

Just like someone would have paid Stallworth. Stallworth has more upside than Moss and he is playing under a one year contract that pays him less than Moss and he is arguably better than Moss at this standpoint. Moss has a lot of black marks against him to get a big contract from effort concerns, talent diminishing concerns, and drug concerns.

I didn't say he wasn't a factor, I said he wasn't the only reason. Art Shell did plenty to get himself fired from a position he should not have been hired for in the first place. What he said on the radio was stupid but he truly sounded depressed.

You are making excuses for him. Moss has always thrown his coaches under a bus and he did it there. It was wrong and he should never had said it. He doesn't have the stones to suck it up. A lot of players on defense did.

So wasn't Red Mcombs, Mike Tice and all of the other malcontents on that team. He was hurt his last season in Minny not sure how he quit on them. I believe he quit on the Raiders, but saying he burned them isn't something I would agree to. Again one could argue they burned him by expecting Aaron Brookes to run the offense.

Funny, Stallworth and Horn didn't have a lot of problems with Aaron Brooks. Both those guys produced with Brooks throwing to him. I'm sorry, but Brady was burned by the Pats last year because they didn't give him any receiver other than Reche Caldwell for most of last year. I didn't see him quit. The Pats burned the defense in 2003 by releasing Milloy a week before the start of the season, but after one week of shock they pulled it together and performed like the best defense in Patriots history. You PLAY with the hands you are dealt.

Not every superstar is a leader and not every leader is a superstar. Superstar QB's are expected to be leaders but WR's? Most superstar WR's have the worst attitude on the team. Are you going to tell me Chad Johnson is a leader? He has a big mouth but I would hardly call him a leader.

How can a WR take the team on his back? He has absolutely no control over getting the ball. Brady has the ball in his hand every single snap and has total control over the offense and who receives the ball.

Moss and Carter carried the Vikings in 1999 when they had Jeff George as their starting QB. It is a lot harder, but it is possible. Besides, it's not my point. Brady had every right to complain or call it in and the media were baiting him for weeks to lay into the coaching staff. Brady just tried that much harder to get Caldwell and the rest up to speed and never said anything derogatory about the coaching staff. That is how you do it.

Dillon did that in Cincy. He was on horrible teams and he just shut up and played until the very end. That is why I have more respect for him than Moss, but I am no Dillon fan.

I'm not asking Moss to be Brady, but he can shut up and play the darn game like most of the players in the NFL. You don't think Torry Holt hated how Mike Martz destroyed what **** Vermeil built. He you have never seen him say a word or not give his all and the Rams have sucked for a few years.

Great for him, I think the Defense was the only part of the team that didn't pack it in. No that is what you think stars do. Its not just stars in football who pack it in when the season goes down the ****ter, Manny and Pedro both come to mind.

I could care less about baseball. We are talking football. Baseball isn't as much of a team sport as football is.







I guarantee you are well within the minority on this opinion. This is stretching it just a tiny bit. Keyshawn put up better numbers the past three years because he was in functional offenses. Are you honestly going to compare Brookes to Bledsoe? When Bledsoe has protection he is/was one of the most accurate passers in the league, his problems are a lack of mobility and over confidence in his arm. Brookes outright sucks at everything QB and Collins was having enough struggles to retire!

.............................................................Rec YPC TD
2006 Carolina 24th in total offense - Johnson 70 11.6 4
Oakland 32nd in total offense - Moss 42 13.2 3 in 13 games

2005 Dallas 13th in total offense - Johnson 71 11.8 6
Oakland 21st in total offense - Moss 60 16.8 8

2004 Minny 4th in total offense - Moss 49 15.7 13 in 13 games
Dallas 14th in total offense - Johnson 70 14.0 6

And talk about quiting on your team didn't Keyshawn sit out in Tampa until he got traded? I can't recall Moss doing that. In your opinion Johnson is better simply because he had more catches? Considering he played in better offenses with better QB's, wasn't double teamed, averaged less YPC and had less TD's and played in six more games?

Consider the QB card pulled.

We get it you don't like Moss, but you are pushing the envelope on this. Especially with the Keyshawn statement. I've never been a fan of Moss, but I think the media has overblown the issues with him. And as the other poster pointed out, he is in a Pats uniform so I will give him the benefit of the doubt. If he is a malcontent or screws up I will be the first one to tell you that you were right. But that isn't going to happen, because he won't be expected to be a leader on this team. Which is a good thing and he won't be the media's only focus in the Pats locker room.[/QUOTE]

 

[Rob0729]

That Roster bonus is basically a delayed signing bonus on a 6 year 33M contract. This way NE can figure out of they truelly want him before paying his signing bonus.

It is basically an option that will all be accrued in 2008 instead of the life of the deal. The Pats don't have to pay it if he isn't on the roster. Stallworth has an injury history and is in the drug program. The Pats are not going to give him $11 million in bonuses unless he is a superstar this season because he is too much of a risk.