The Case for Kelley Washington

[Rob0729]

SeanBruschi54, why don't you do us all a favor and do this comparison yourself in order to support your argument. Or maybe provide a link to a thread where you've already done so. It's my personal impression (and probably the majority of the general public as well) that Dillon did not have the history of selfishness and being a distraction that Randy does. But you can certainly prove these impressions wrong.

Dillon doesn't have a history of being selfish or a distraction. He had one incident where after returning from an injury and being benched for Rudi Johnson he refused to go in when Marvin Lewis asked and threw his shoulder pads into the stands after the game. It was childish and definitely not being a good teammate, but it was one incident due to his frustrations that he felt he was being forced out of a team that he gave his body and effort to when no one else was.

Moss has tons of incidents where he was a distractions on the field. From taking plays off in the NFC Championship game and then admitting to it, squirting a ref with a water bottle, fake mooning Green Bay fans, walking off the field in a close game in the final seconds, walking off the field on an interception while the ball was still alive, etc.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Huh?!? One game? A media related issue? It was an offensive philosophy implemented by Mike Tice and it was in tact for half a season. He scrapped it because trying to get Moss the ball at least 40% of the time was sinking the team and Moss was arrested in September of that season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2003/08/15/randy_ratio_ap/

As for Dillon, his off the field incidents are worse (although most of them happened when he was in high school), but his effort and on the field incidents are nowhere near as bad as Moss'. Dillon only had one incident when you can say he quit on his team. There are dozens of ones where you can point to Moss.

As for Moss having no problem with not being the center of the attention and he will love not being the star, where do you get this. Moss like most star WRs bask in the spotlight. Moss' childish behavior of the past (squirting the ref with a water bottle, fake mooning the Green Bay crowd, etc.) shouts as desperate attempts of "look at me" attitude.

Goes talk to any Vikings fans. That whole thing was BS. Teams were double teaming Moss constantly and the QB stupidely still tried getting it in there more often than not.

I cant name more than 3 incidences for Moss for quiting on the team.

 

[Born_a_Patriot]

Great read. Great thread.:rocker:

 

[Rob0729]

Goes talk to any Vikings fans. That whole thing was BS. Teams were double teaming Moss constantly and the QB stupidely still tried getting it in there more often than not.

I cant name more than 3 incidences for Moss for quiting on the team.

I didn't say the Randy Ratio worked. I said the Vikings put it in to make Moss happy. That is a fact. Whether it worked or not is irrelevant. That wasn't my point.

I can think of nearly 8-10 incidents last year alone. Look at nearly every game he quit on his team. You can count the fact that he quit on the team as one incident, but it was a major incident because it last most of the season.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

I didn't say the Randy Ratio worked. I said the Vikings put it in to make Moss happy. That is a fact. Whether it worked or not is irrelevant. That wasn't my point.

I can think of nearly 8-10 incidents last year alone. Look at nearly every game he quit on his team. You can count the fact that he quit on the team as one incident, but it was a major incident because it last most of the season.

BZZTTTT. Wrong.

They did not impliment the Randy Ratio to make him happy. They started it after he was misquoted as saying "give me the ball".

Last year 8-10 incidences? He was hurt for a few games and after that i didnt really hear much else. Except everyone says he dogged it every play which i think is ****. People single out Moss and says he doesnt block well if he doesnt get the ball or he takes the play off and while he does occasionally he doesnt do it more than other players. Look at Keyshawn Johnson, he did a ton, no one said he was lazy. Other players do it to. Not just Moss.

Moss Major incidence was when he accidently hit that meter maid and that was completely blown out of proportion. It wasnt like he was driving down the street and intentionally hit her. It was an accident.

The mooning incident was a good joke to all that got it. Do you know why he fake mooned the Green Bay fans? Bet you dont without looking it up.

Water bottle thing was just dumb. He squirted water on a ref. Is that a big deal? No.

What else has he done?

 

[SeanBruschi54]

SeanBruschi54, why don't you do us all a favor and do this comparison yourself in order to support your argument. Or maybe provide a link to a thread where you've already done so. It's my personal impression (and probably the majority of the general public as well) that Dillon did not have the history of selfishness and being a distraction that Randy does. But you can certainly prove these impressions wrong.

-Dillon had a assault and battery charge. Assault with a deadly weapon.
-Mutiple traffic violations including DUI's, driving without a license/expired license, neglegent driving amongst other incidences.
-Theft - Does not go into detail
-Intent to sell Cocaine
-Obstructing a Police office 3 seperate times
-Resisting Arrest twice
-5 more assault charges
-A criminal Trespassing charge
-Malicious Mischief twice
-Reckless endangerment twice

Thats Dillons rap sheet.

 

[Rob0729]

BZZTTTT. Wrong.

They did not impliment the Randy Ratio to make him happy. They started it after he was misquoted as saying "give me the ball".

Last year 8-10 incidences? He was hurt for a few games and after that i didnt really hear much else. Except everyone says he dogged it every play which i think is ****. People single out Moss and says he doesnt block well if he doesnt get the ball or he takes the play off and while he does occasionally he doesnt do it more than other players. Look at Keyshawn Johnson, he did a ton, no one said he was lazy. Other players do it to. Not just Moss.

Moss Major incidence was when he accidently hit that meter maid and that was completely blown out of proportion. It wasnt like he was driving down the street and intentionally hit her. It was an accident.

The mooning incident was a good joke to all that got it. Do you know why he fake mooned the Green Bay fans? Bet you dont without looking it up.

Water bottle thing was just dumb. He squirted water on a ref. Is that a big deal? No.

What else has he done?

So they started it after he was misquoted to that he wanted the ball. So in otherwords, they did it because they thought it would make him happy. Where am I wrong? I didn't say Moss asked for it. I said the Vikings did it to make him happy. Which is 100% right. You are wrong.

Other players do not do it like Moss. He has walked off the field several times. He quit on his team last year. Other players did it, but that doesn't mean that it is right.

The mooning was classless showboating to anyone who got it. It was in poor taste.

The water bottle is a big deal because one of biggest things is that you are not supposed to touch the refs. Squirting the ref with a water bottle is actually a pretty big offense.

 

[Rob0729]

-Dillon had a assault and battery charge. Assault with a deadly weapon.
-Mutiple traffic violations including DUI's, driving without a license/expired license, neglegent driving amongst other incidences.
-Theft - Does not go into detail
-Intent to sell Cocaine
-Obstructing a Police office 3 seperate times
-Resisting Arrest twice
-5 more assault charges
-A criminal Trespassing charge
-Malicious Mischief twice
-Reckless endangerment twice

Thats Dillons rap sheet.

Most of those things happened when he was under 18. He came to us when he was 29. I was against Dillon when he came here and I was never a huge fan of him while he was here. I wouldn't have been totally upset if we never got Dillon. The last time Dillon had a run in with the law was years before he came here.

I compared Dillon and Moss to their on the field production and their ability to handle a back seat to Brady. I am not talking about the off the field stuff. You are bringing up this stuff which is irrelevant to the point at hand.

Dillon gave 101% on the field. Moss has been known not to. Dillon enjoyed the spotlight not being on him. I don't know if Moss can.

 

[spacecrime]

???

The Randy Ratio lasted for one game and it wasnt even really a gameplan more than a media related issue.

This is incorrect on all three counts. It was more than a game, it was a gameplan, and it was more than a media related issue.

 

[bucky]

Most of those things happened when he was under 18. He came to us when he was 29. I was against Dillon when he came here and I was never a huge fan of him while he was here. I wouldn't have been totally upset if we never got Dillon. The last time Dillon had a run in with the law was years before he came here.

I compared Dillon and Moss to their on the field production and their ability to handle a back seat to Brady. I am not talking about the off the field stuff. You are bringing up this stuff which is irrelevant to the point at hand.

Dillon gave 101% on the field. Moss has been known not to. Dillon enjoyed the spotlight not being on him. I don't know if Moss can.

I think it is relevant to the extent that as a youth Dillon was in trouble and this is obviously more than anything Moss has ever done. But it's probably safe to say that if Dillon had no problems with the Law since he got into the NFL then it wasn't a concern for the Pats.

So the next step is to compare their "problems" between the day they got to the NFL and the day they were traded to the Pats.

 

[patfanken]

-Dillon had a assault and battery charge. Assault with a deadly weapon.
-Mutiple traffic violations including DUI's, driving without a license/expired license, neglegent driving amongst other incidences.
-Theft - Does not go into detail
-Intent to sell Cocaine
-Obstructing a Police office 3 seperate times
-Resisting Arrest twice
-5 more assault charges
-A criminal Trespassing charge
-Malicious Mischief twice
-Reckless endangerment twice

Thats Dillons rap sheet.

And I bet most if not all were prior to his entering UW

 

[Mainefan]

The Vikings did try to please Moss, but what they did was artificial and in some ways insulting. You don't get a kid to be more obedient by making sure he gets an ice cream cone whenever he wants one. You just set the stage for manipulation.

What I'm talking about is something very different. If Moss really succeeds here, he will be acclaimed by both the fans and his teammates--not to keep him happy, but to recognize his accomplishments. And the approval will not be some kind of manipulation, but genuine admiration. It will be a reward, not a bribe.

When I look at Moss's history, I can't imagine him not taking pride in winning fan and team approval solely on the basis of his deeds (the presence of good ones and the absence of bad ones). There's no guarantee, of course, it's a world of "ifs," but should his time here this year turn out to be positive, I think he'll want more of it, as much more as he can get.

If it all turns out this way, the Patriots will be a safe haven and a new family for Randy Moss. Yes, he'll want to be paid what he's worth, but I strongly doubt he'll be looking for some outrageous paycheck somewhere else.

I'm not even sure he'd be offered that paycheck by some other team. However successful Moss is this year, I'll bet that most GMs will think his success is a result of Patriots' discipline and Brady's talent. Who knows, maybe Moss will think so too.

It's going to be fascinating to see how it all turns out.

 

[Displaced - Fan]

The biggest BS story of the offseason is Moss tore up an $18 million contract to come here. Yes, he tore up his contract, but he is going to make about as much here as he would have anywhere else. Do you really think the Raiders would have paid him $9 plus million this year? Very unlikely. Do you think anyone else would have picked him off waivers or traded him for his current contract. Also unlikely.

Moss is going to make $4.5-$5 million here this year which is about as much as he would have made anywhere else. What he did give up is a long term deal because he is probably hedging his bet that he can rehab his image.

Moss gave up a contract that he was never going to get. The Raiders weren't going to pay it and no one else was either.

Stallworth has been well publicized that he was going to come to the Pats to use playing with Brady and use this year to convince the Pats to pick up that monster option that probably will never happen or cash in free agency next year. Moss is probably following suit.

What's a BS here is your analysis of the situation. Moss would have absolutely make more else where if he was on waivers. Teams like Washington and the 49s are throwing money at players of much less talent in signing bonuses and what not. What players make a year isn't what they care about as much as the big bonus check for signing on.

 

[Rob0729]

What's a BS here is your analysis of the situation. Moss would have absolutely make more else where if he was on waivers. Teams like Washington and the 49s are throwing money at players of much less talent in signing bonuses and what not. What players make a year isn't what they care about as much as the big bonus check for signing on.

LOL! There is a reason no one tried to trade for this guy other than the Pats and Packers. Most teams do not want the headaches. It is generally believed that he has lost a step and he has an attitude problem. Most teams wouldn't touch Moss if he was a free agent and would take less than the Pats gave him. According to Adam Schefter the Pats weren't even interested in Moss until they saw how much he was willing to take less to get out of Oakland.

I will conceed he might of given up a million or two to come here, but not much more. People are crazy to think teams would shell out money for Moss after they watched TO help drive Parcells to retirement and more importantly Moss help send Art Shell and now Mike Lombardi to the unemployment line.

The fact of the matter is Moss burned two teams. He hasn't been a stud WR in three seasons. He is a risk no matter who takes him at this point. No team was going to overpay for him. You are kidding yourself if you believe that.

Someone might have given him a Stallworth type of deal which looks big on its face, but gives the team an easy out after the first year of the deal. GMs and Head Coaches in this league hold onto their jobs by the skin of their teeth. No way would someone risk a big deal on Moss not knowing if he will change his striped and return to his old form.

People are throwing around money for hot properties, not problem childs and people who have had down careers. Heck even hotter properties like Cato June got modest deals. Guys like Eric Molds and Keyshawn Johnson are having problems generating interest from teams.

 

[Rob0729]

The Vikings did try to please Moss, but what they did was artificial and in some ways insulting. You don't get a kid to be more obedient by making sure he gets an ice cream cone whenever he wants one. You just set the stage for manipulation.

What I'm talking about is something very different. If Moss really succeeds here, he will be acclaimed by both the fans and his teammates--not to keep him happy, but to recognize his accomplishments. And the approval will not be some kind of manipulation, but genuine admiration. It will be a reward, not a bribe.

When I look at Moss's history, I can't imagine him not taking pride in winning fan and team approval solely on the basis of his deeds (the presence of good ones and the absence of bad ones). There's no guarantee, of course, it's a world of "ifs," but should his time here this year turn out to be positive, I think he'll want more of it, as much more as he can get.

If it all turns out this way, the Patriots will be a safe haven and a new family for Randy Moss. Yes, he'll want to be paid what he's worth, but I strongly doubt he'll be looking for some outrageous paycheck somewhere else.

I'm not even sure he'd be offered that paycheck by some other team. However successful Moss is this year, I'll bet that most GMs will think his success is a result of Patriots' discipline and Brady's talent. Who knows, maybe Moss will think so too.

It's going to be fascinating to see how it all turns out.

Moss was a god in Minnesotta his first five or six years. He had true admiration and success. He did play on a team that went 15-1 and went to the NFC Championships. Fans loved him and he had the admiration of his teammates. He still got himself in trouble.

I think he has a lot more pressure here. Boston fans are far less forgiving that other fans around the league. Many fans have these lofty expectations of a miraculous turnaround from the past three season to become an elite WR. Although in this town it is the Tom Brady show, he may get the spotlight in a negative way if he doesn't live up to some people's potentially unrealistic expectations.

I'm sorry, but when Randy Moss admitted he didn't give his 100% in the NFC title game in the 2000 season, it pretty much showed me his true colors. He showed he had no pride in himself, his teammates, or his fans. He took plays off in the NFC Title game and then told the press (which subsequently started a pretty public feud with Todd Steussie who was sent packing to Carolina partially because of the rift with Moss).

I don't see that Moss is going to be overly thrilled here that he is going to take less and potentially considerably less if he makes a major comeback just to stay. The whole everyone loves to be here and will take less to stay is overblown. So do and others go running for the bigger bucks (Damien Woody, Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, David Givens, Adam Vinatieri, Deion Branch).

 

[SeanBruschi54]

So they started it after he was misquoted to that he wanted the ball. So in otherwords, they did it because they thought it would make him happy. Where am I wrong? I didn't say Moss asked for it. I said the Vikings did it to make him happy. Which is 100% right. You are wrong.

Other players do not do it like Moss. He has walked off the field several times. He quit on his team last year. Other players did it, but that doesn't mean that it is right.

The mooning was classless showboating to anyone who got it. It was in poor taste.

The water bottle is a big deal because one of biggest things is that you are not supposed to touch the refs. Squirting the ref with a water bottle is actually a pretty big offense.

The Vikings did it to make him happy but he never wanted it instituted. So in fact it caused a reverse affect.

What's more, Moss wasn't all that interested in the plan anyway. "I didn't really care much about the Randy Ratio when it was brought up," Moss said. "I just wanted to win."

There are numerous cases in which he stated he never liked the idea when it was brought up and he just wanted to win games at whatever cost.

Show me times where he has quit on his team in the middle of a game or on a winning drive. Show me, because you cant find one. You'd be pissed off too if your down 17 points in the 4th and your QB just through an INT. Other players do it a lot, it doesnt make it right but dont say he is the worst one because thats bull****. Just because he's one of the best WR in the league and maybe of our time people trash him for it.

Do you know why he did it yet? If you knew why he did it then the Packer fans deserved it. Im sure other TD celebrations are okay though right? I mean when Chad Johnson does his gimmicks it makes you angry instead of laughing right?

Water on a official, yea thats a terrible crime.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

This is incorrect on all three counts. It was more than a game, it was a gameplan, and it was more than a media related issue.

They quit "officially" after game 6 of the season but it was a stupid idea letting your opponent know what you were going to do ahead of time. It rarely worked and everyone hated it.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

And I bet most if not all were prior to his entering UW

I was asked to name all of his crimes, so i did.

 

[spacecrime]

Water on a official, yea thats a terrible crime.

If Moss went to the Colts you might have a different viewpoint on this.

 

[Rob0729]

The Vikings did it to make him happy but he never wanted it instituted. So in fact it caused a reverse affect.

Moss said after it failed he never wanted it. Who knows if he pushed for it before it was implemented. Besides, it is just one example and it was after he was getting a reputation of being frustrated in 2004. Earlier in his career the Vikes constantly bent over backwards for the guy. Most teams do for their superstars. You are trying diffuse the overall point by arguing the minutia of the minor points. The overall point is the team constantly tried to bend over backwards to appease him. Whether something they did blew up in their face is another arguement that has no relevance.

There are numerous cases in which he stated he never liked the idea when it was brought up and he just wanted to win games at whatever cost.

After it failed. Show me one time he said he was against it before it failed. I'm sure if Moss had a monster year and the Vikes had a great season, he would have said anything.

Show me times where he has quit on his team in the middle of a game or on a winning drive. Show me, because you cant find one. You'd be pissed off too if your down 17 points in the 4th and your QB just through an INT. Other players do it a lot, it doesnt make it right but dont say he is the worst one because thats bull****. Just because he's one of the best WR in the league and maybe of our time people trash him for it.

Do you see Bruschi, Brady, Harrison, Vrabel, Seymour, etc. quit on their team if things are going bad. Moss has been seen going to the lockerroom when the game was still close in the final seconds. He has been seen walking off the field after an interception eventhough he should have been hustling after the ball. He talked about taking plays off in the NFC Championship game. You can spin it any way you want. You should never quit on your team no matter the situation,

Do you know why he did it yet? If you knew why he did it then the Packer fans deserved it. Im sure other TD celebrations are okay though right? I mean when Chad Johnson does his gimmicks it makes you angry instead of laughing right?

No! A small handful of moron Packer fans deserved it. A couple of guys moon the Vikings bus when it was leaving the stadium and that gives Moss permission to fake moon a bunch of fans including children who had absolutely nothing to do with the incident?

Chad Jackson does not do anything that can be considered offensive. He does not moon opposing team fans. He tries to make funny celebration dances that does not blatantly offend the other team's fans.

Water on a official, yea thats a terrible crime.

It is an ejectable offense that can accrue additional fines and suspensions. In terms of football rules, it is a pretty big crime. Anything you do to get you ejected from the game is a self act and crime against the team. How exactly can Moss help his team in a game in the lockerroom. It is about doing what is best for the team and it was a selfish act that cost his team.

I'm sorry. Just because Moss is a Patriot, I am not going to just change my opinion on the guy and make excuses for his past problems. You can go on and make excuses for his poor behavior, but I am not.