The Case for Kelley Washington

[Patriot_in_NY]

My early (very naive) guess as to the 2008 Patriots receiving corps:

Randy Moss
Kelley Washington
Wes Welker
Chad Jackson
Kelvin Kight

My sincere apologies if I've brutally misused and abused the salary information that Miguel has collected on his pages.

Interesting indeed. However. I'd put Gaffney or Caldwell in there instead of Kight. One of them will get the nod beyond this year. My guess is Gaffney right now.

 

[DarrylS]

Have felt since the acquisition of Washington that he could be the sleeper, great pedigree, been around great NFL receivers with not much chance to play and great size. Here he is coming into a system that will let him capitalize on his strengths. A lot remains to be seen, but just one of those gut feelings.

 

[Krugman]

It should be interesting in camp this summer.How many recievers do you thinkthey will go with?I realize its probably not a hard and fast number,but is more than 6-7 realistic?

 

[Rob0729]

See my above post.

I don't see how you can possibly think this...the man tore up $18 million to play here, he's not using us to get a big paycheck...He had his big paycheck, and he ripped it up b/c as he said himself, has made plenty of money in his career.

If money was his concern, he would've played out under his current contract and then worried about going to a team where he could get a ring.

The biggest BS story of the offseason is Moss tore up an $18 million contract to come here. Yes, he tore up his contract, but he is going to make about as much here as he would have anywhere else. Do you really think the Raiders would have paid him $9 plus million this year? Very unlikely. Do you think anyone else would have picked him off waivers or traded him for his current contract. Also unlikely.

Moss is going to make $4.5-$5 million here this year which is about as much as he would have made anywhere else. What he did give up is a long term deal because he is probably hedging his bet that he can rehab his image.

Moss gave up a contract that he was never going to get. The Raiders weren't going to pay it and no one else was either.

Stallworth has been well publicized that he was going to come to the Pats to use playing with Brady and use this year to convince the Pats to pick up that monster option that probably will never happen or cash in free agency next year. Moss is probably following suit.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm astounded by some of the analysis on this thread.

Moss and Stallworth leaving for more money after one year?......Don't be so sure...If Pats win SB or come close,why would you trade another season with
Tom Brady for another million or two with a mediocre team and QB?

If you get one ring,wouldn't you want a chance at two or three?........along with a ticket to the HOF?

Kelly Washington couldn't supplant Chris Henry?
He was injured and the Bengals,unlike the Patriots,
have a pecking order with their WR's,based on salary and reputation.

IMO,Washington will be a red-zone stud for us.
If he stays healthy,he's also the most motivated of all the FA WR's.

Brown and Jackson will BOTH be PUP.
Troy is coming off an injury and the Pup list is the perfect place to slot him until the WR situation shakes out.
This is obvious to me,,,can;t you see this?

Caldwell is in trouble here,both because of his performance in the AFCCG and his lack of versatility.

Gaffney is shorter money,better hands,and more versatile because he can play the slot.

After training camp and the EX games,TB will be more than familiar with the potential of the "speed" WR's(Moss and Stallworth).
His familiarity with Caldwell and Gaffney last year
is irrelevant and overblown.

This offense will be dominate......without any one
piece having to be dominating.

It's going to be fun to watch.

Caldwell has better hands than Gaffney. Caldwell dropped three balls all year and that includes the two drops in the AFCCG. People's perceptions of Caldwell are out of whack because of that game. He went from universally believed an offseason steal to useless overnight.

 

[PatsFan37]

I'm astounded by some of the analysis on this thread.

Moss and Stallworth leaving for more money after one year?......Don't be so sure...If Pats win SB or come close,why would you trade another season with
Tom Brady for another million or two with a mediocre team and QB?

That's not how players think. IF the Pats win, Moss in particular will feel that the Pats owe him the superbowl and will want to be paid accordingly. Look at what happened after Dillon's spectacular 2004 season. He was paid well and never performed to that level again. BB will be wary of making that mistake with another temperamental player on the wrong side of 30. He will want to find a different superior talent who feels dissed and wants to win a SB. And will want to groom the talented hardworking players that are a better fit. He will let Moss leave for his payday elsewhere. And Moss will do so. Dillon would have if the Pats had not paid him as well as they did.

For those who think Moss tore up his paycheck, he did not. The Raiders would have cut him if they didn't trade him.

Everyone is ruling out Caldwell a bit too quickly. This guy is a tough, hardworking, team player who came through last year when most everyone else did not. I hope he is not the 2008 #1 WR, but if someone else emerges as the #1, he is a very serviceable #2, especially with Welker in the slot.

 

[Rob0729]

Moss could have played elsewhere for lots more money.

Where? The Yankees? If he could have gotten a lot more money elsewhere, why did no one else offer more than a fifth round pick for Moss in trade. Moss has already said that the stories that he would only take less to play for the Pats are false. He would have taken less to play for Green Bay. If Green Bay wasn't willing to part with even a fourth, it is doubtful they would have given up more the Pats were in compensation. No one else ever offered a trade for Moss.

Ditto for Stallworth, although in this case the patriots have the option.

It was reported before he signed with the Pats that if Stallworth didn't get a deal from anyone that was close to what he was looking for, he would sign with the Pats for one year (which is what he basically did) and used playing with Brady as a springboard to cash in in 2008.

Stallworth is definitely using this year to cash in 2008. He hasn't hid that fact. If the Pats do not pick up the option, he will sell his wares to the highest bidder. It was known coming in. He may hope the Pats pick up the option, but he specifically had this option in the contract so the Pats couldn't franchise him next year and he could be a free agent in 2008.

People are buying too much into agents spin rather than the real facts of the situations.

 

[Rob0729]

Everyone is ruling out Caldwell a bit too quickly. This guy is a tough, hardworking, team player who came through last year when most everyone else did not. I hope he is not the 2008 #1 WR, but if someone else emerges as the #1, he is a very serviceable #2, especially with Welker in the slot.

I agree. People are judging this guy based on two drops in the AFCCG. Caldwell was Brady's goto guy for most of the season. I think even his strongest supporters will agree he isn't a true number one, but he does have a chemistry with Brady and he knows the offense. Brady probably has more comfort with him than any other WR on the roster right now.

I can't see the Pats going into the season with no WRs who have had experience playing in our offense. No one other than Troy Brown if he comes back has as much experience as Caldwell. We need him for continuity for our offense especially early in the season. It takes a while to learn our offense and guys like Caldwell and Gaffney will be called on to step up while Moss, Stallworth, and Welker learn all the intricacies of the offense. Moss has always played in basic vertical offenses and may struggle to pick up the different routes and presnap reads.

 

[sebman2112]

According to Miguel Stallworth's '08 cap hit is scheduled to be $6,373,386, and that's pretty much what they offered Branch, so I don't think it's a slam dunk Stallworth isn't going to be here after '07, especially since his cap hit goes down to $4,873,386 in '09. Also, some of his bonusus are playing time and performance based, so he has to stay healthy and perform to actually make the full amount of his contract.

 

[sebman2112]

I disagree with so much of what is posted. Let me simply state my position.

2007

Moss could have played elsewhere for lots more money. He may or may not stay. I suspect that he will want to stay. I suspect that whether he stays will depend more on tem chemistry than anything else. He can play anywhere. He wants to play for a contender and have fun. He given up millions this year to do so. I suspect that he will do the same next year.

Ditto for Stallworth, although in this case the patriots have the option.

Welker is a younger version of Troy. He will be a fine slot receiver and a returner. If we need him to start, he will. Otherwise, he will be fine #3.

Washington is the mystery man, the man with the most upside, and the man who will be most motivated. He might be cut. He might be #4 on the depth chart. I expect that he will make the squad.

Jackson and Brown seem to be bound for the PUP list, although Brown could be on the 53 as a utility player. I don't have him on the WR depth chart.

I suppose the conservative approach is to expect Caldwell and Gaffney to both amke the team and push out Washington. I hope that it doesn't happen and that we trade one of these players for a conditional draft choice.

===================

2008

Two of Moss, Stallworth and Washingon (I'd love to keep all three)
Welker
Jackson
a free agent which could be Gaffney or Caldwell

====================

I think that many here disagree with me either with regard to Stallworth's contract or his talent. I see nothing wrong with his contract as is, possibly with restructuring, but with no change of money. Ditto for Washingtion.

If (an big if) Jackson comes around, and Moss decides to stay, we will have an incredible set of receivers for a long time to come.

Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Jackson, Washington !!!!!!!!!!

This is much closer to the way I'm thinking.

 

[Rob0729]

According to Miguel Stallworth's '08 cap hit is scheduled to be $6,373,386, and that's pretty much what they offered Branch, so I don't think it's a slam dunk Stallworth isn't going to be here after '07, especially since his cap hit goes down to $4,873,386 in '09. Also, some of his bonusus are playing time and performance based, so he has to stay healthy and perform to actually make the full amount of his contract.

Stallworth is due an $11 million option bonus in 2008. Stallworth will need to be a top 3-5 WR this upcoming season for the Pats to even consider picking that up.

Only $1.6 million of that option is tied to playing time. So if he is a starter and healthy, he still will get an $11 million option if the Pats decide to pick it up otherwise the option is still a whopping $9.4 million. Which begs to the question if Stallworth isn't healthy enough to get the additional $1.6 million of the option bonus (with his injury history), why would you pick up a $9.4 million option?

The way the Pats value WRs, I seriously doubt the Pats pick up Stallworth's option unless he gets over 1,400 yards. I think if they weren't willing to pay Branch, they definitely won't be willing to pay Stallworth base on one year's production unless it is extrondinary.

The Pats may try to renegotiate the deal before the option comes due, but I can't see Stallworth taking a hometown discount.

 

[Flying Fungi]

Hi!

Kelvin who???

 

[sebman2112]

Stallworth is due an $11 million option bonus in 2008. Stallworth will need to be a top 3-5 WR this upcoming season for the Pats to even consider picking that up.

Only $1.6 million of that option is tied to playing time. So if he is a starter and healthy, he still will get an $11 million option if the Pats decide to pick it up otherwise the option is still a whopping $9.4 million. Which begs to the question if Stallworth isn't healthy enough to get the additional $1.6 million of the option bonus (with his injury history), why would you pick up a $9.4 million option?

The way the Pats value WRs, I seriously doubt the Pats pick up Stallworth's option unless he gets over 1,400 yards. I think if they weren't willing to pay Branch, they definitely won't be willing to pay Stallworth base on one year's production unless it is extrondinary.

The Pats may try to renegotiate the deal before the option comes due, but I can't see Stallworth taking a hometown discount.

That is somewhat accurate (sorry I thought you said option bonus, not option)

Here is what Len reports as Stallworth's '08 contract structure:
"For the Patriots to retain Stallworth for the 2008 season, they must pay him an option bonus of $6 million by Feb. 25, 2008. There is a subsequent roster bonus of $2 million due March 1, a second roster bonus of $1.6 million based on playing time, a base salary of $1 million and a $400,000 workout bonus. That totals an exorbitant $11 million for 2008"

With a team like the Patriots the only thing that matters is the cap hit, which is significantly less. That's the point. Some of you are getting to cought up into the bonus figures for that year, when they are being spread out over the contract length. This is why I think saying it's a slam dunk he'll not be playing on that contract for NE isn't something you should be saying.

 

[bucky]

When you say "case for Kelly Washington", I thought you were going to bring up the fact that his first 4 years in the league compare foborably to Caldwell's first 4 years. If Washington can stay healthy and have a good attitude, there's no doubt he can be a pretty good WR.

However, if I was to handicap this year's roster, the top 3 are obvious, I'd put Gaffney into the #4 slot, Chad Jackson is almost certainly PUP-bound, and Washington, Caldwell and the young guys battle for the #5 spot and possible #6 spot. If Troy comes back, you have to believe he's going to make the team and it also probably means 6 WRs on the 53.

 

[Mainefan]

I think we've underestimated how this year could affect Moss emotionally.

If he has a spectacular year--and I think the chances are better than 50/50 that he will--he's going to find himself loved by the fans and respected by his teammates. He's going to feel he finally has a home, as well as big-time approval. I don't think he'll be so quick to leave it, whatever the financial considerations. He's going to want more of the emotional satisfaction he's gotten. Given his history, I can't think of anything that would be more important to him.

What I see in this thread about the other receivers is that we can't agree--now--about which one is better and who will stick around. I read that Gaffney has better hands, then that Caldwell has better hands. Who's right? Who knows?

The competition between receivers will be the most interesting aspect of TC this year, and it's going to be a mixed bag for Tom Brady. He's going to be working really hard with a lot of guys to establish the necessary chemistry--harder, I think, than in any year past, except 2006. There are a lot of unknowns for him. I even think he even learn a little about himself, like a great driver in a car that's better than anything he's had before.

 

[Rob0729]

That is somewhat accurate (sorry I thought you said option bonus, not option)

Here is what Len reports as Stallworth's '08 contract structure:
"For the Patriots to retain Stallworth for the 2008 season, they must pay him an option bonus of $6 million by Feb. 25, 2008. There is a subsequent roster bonus of $2 million due March 1, a second roster bonus of $1.6 million based on playing time, a base salary of $1 million and a $400,000 workout bonus. That totals an exorbitant $11 million for 2008"

With a team like the Patriots the only thing that matters is the cap hit, which is significantly less. That's the point. Some of you are getting to cought up into the bonus figures for that year, when they are being spread out over the contract length. This is why I think saying it's a slam dunk he'll not be playing on that contract for NE isn't something you should be saying.

With a team like the Pats and most other teams, it is the guaranteed money not the cap money. The fact that he is guaranteed more than $11 million in just bonuses in 2008 is huge. Cap money can be manipulated, but it is the guaranteed money that can't.

Unless Stallworth has an All Pro season or is willing to renegotiate a lot, it is a slam dunk that he will be playing somewhere else next year. He will need to have a 1,400 plus yard season for the Pats to honor his current contract after 2007.

 

[Rob0729]

I think we've underestimated how this year could affect Moss emotionally.

If he has a spectacular year--and I think the chances are better than 50/50 that he will--he's going to find himself loved by the fans and respected by his teammates. He's going to feel he finally has a home, as well as big-time approval. I don't think he'll be so quick to leave it, whatever the financial considerations. He's going to want more of the emotional satisfaction he's gotten. Given his history, I can't think of anything that would be more important to him.

What I see in this thread about the other receivers is that we can't agree--now--about which one is better and who will stick around. I read that Gaffney has better hands, then that Caldwell has better hands. Who's right? Who knows?

The competition between receivers will be the most interesting aspect of TC this year, and it's going to be a mixed bag for Tom Brady. He's going to be working really hard with a lot of guys to establish the necessary chemistry--harder, I think, than in any year past, except 2006. There are a lot of unknowns for him. I even think he even learn a little about himself, like a great driver in a car that's better than anything he's had before.

I really doubt Moss will have a major attitude change and finally feel at home. The Vikes early in his career bent over backwards to make him feel happy. They even put in a Randy Ratio into the offense that guaranteed him at least 30% of the ball each game and catered to his every need. I don't know if a place that will not cater to his needs and cares how many times they throw him the ball is going to change that.

He is not Dillon. Dillon, by many accounts, relished not having to be the guy here after being forced to carry a lot of bad Cincy teams over the year. He happily handed over the reigns of being "The Franchise" to Brady. He enjoyed the spotlight being on someone else for a change. I don't see Moss being happy being the second fiddle to Brady. He might not act out, but I do think he craves the spotlight.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

I really doubt Moss will have a major attitude change and finally feel at home. The Vikes early in his career bent over backwards to make him feel happy. They even put in a Randy Ratio into the offense that guaranteed him at least 30% of the ball each game and catered to his every need. I don't know if a place that will not cater to his needs and cares how many times they throw him the ball is going to change that.

He is not Dillon. Dillon, by many accounts, relished not having to be the guy here after being forced to carry a lot of bad Cincy teams over the year. He happily handed over the reigns of being "The Franchise" to Brady. He enjoyed the spotlight being on someone else for a change. I don't see Moss being happy being the second fiddle to Brady. He might not act out, but I do think he craves the spotlight.

???

The Randy Ratio lasted for one game and it wasnt even really a gameplan more than a media related issue. The whole thing with Randy Ratio was that the team figured that the more they get the ball to Moss the more of a chance they had to win. They showed that if Moss got the ball a certain amount of times that the team generally won.

Do me a favor go pull up Dillon's list of incidences and then pull up Moss'. See whos is worst.

Besides Moss has no problems not being the center star because he wont have to be and he'll love it.

 

[Rob0729]

???

The Randy Ratio lasted for one game and it wasnt even really a gameplan more than a media related issue. The whole thing with Randy Ratio was that the team figured that the more they get the ball to Moss the more of a chance they had to win. They showed that if Moss got the ball a certain amount of times that the team generally won.

Do me a favor go pull up Dillon's list of incidences and then pull up Moss'. See whos is worst.

Besides Moss has no problems not being the center star because he wont have to be and he'll love it.

Huh?!? One game? A media related issue? It was an offensive philosophy implemented by Mike Tice and it was in tact for half a season. He scrapped it because trying to get Moss the ball at least 40% of the time was sinking the team and Moss was arrested in September of that season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2003/08/15/randy_ratio_ap/

As for Dillon, his off the field incidents are worse (although most of them happened when he was in high school), but his effort and on the field incidents are nowhere near as bad as Moss'. Dillon only had one incident when you can say he quit on his team. There are dozens of ones where you can point to Moss.

As for Moss having no problem with not being the center of the attention and he will love not being the star, where do you get this. Moss like most star WRs bask in the spotlight. Moss' childish behavior of the past (squirting the ref with a water bottle, fake mooning the Green Bay crowd, etc.) shouts as desperate attempts of "look at me" attitude.

 

[bucky]

Do me a favor go pull up Dillon's list of incidences and then pull up Moss'. See whos is worst.

SeanBruschi54, why don't you do us all a favor and do this comparison yourself in order to support your argument. Or maybe provide a link to a thread where you've already done so. It's my personal impression (and probably the majority of the general public as well) that Dillon did not have the history of selfishness and being a distraction that Randy does. But you can certainly prove these impressions wrong.