The "245" Amorphous D ~ The Next Great Defense??

[Off The Grid]

You might want to pump the brakes a bit.

In terms of proven ability, the Patriots have rarely had less on the edge than they do now.

"In terms of proven ability, the Patriots have rarely had less on the edge than they do now."​

You'll never get ME, Captain Negative!!​

I suggest you ReRead my Post: I quite clearly specified "Talent" ~ not "Proven Production."

But I DID like the "Pump the Brakes" line!!

 

[mayoclinic]

"In terms of proven ability, the Patriots have rarely had less on the edge than they do now."​

You'll never get ME, Captain Negative!!​

I suggest you ReRead my Post: I quite clearly specified "Talent" ~ not "Proven Production."

But I DID like the "Pump the Brakes" line!!

I personally have no problem with a little caution to balance exuberance. Botha re useful. We can't all live in a Gridean Universe, after all. As Gary Trudeau once wrote, where there's Utopia, there's Myopia.

 

[Off The Grid]

Outstanding!! :rocker:

One Aspect of what Coach Bill the Mad (Genius) did in April that I'm most JACKED about, is that we Patriot Fans ~ we who suffered for 826 years with the likes of Shawn Crable, Derrick Burgess, and Tully Hyphenator on the Edge...now boast ~ and I'm still shocked and amazed to be able to employ this term about us ~ arguably the deepest arsenal of legitimate Young Edge Talent in the League!!

* Trevor Scott
* Chandler Jones
* Jake Bequette
* Donte HighTower
* Rob Ninkovich
* Jermaine Cunningham

Our Edge Talent is so freaking deep ~ OURS!! The PATRIOTS!! ~ that we even cut Markell Carter, to the considerable annoyance of myself and ~ I believe ~ many of you.

And then there's Andre Carter ~ X Factor!! :rocker:

The possibilities are immense.

I believe that such shocking Depth of Talent at Edge strongly suggests a "245" Base, with the "425" being the Formation most often flipped into...And I would LOVE it!! :rocker:

Of course, even the definition of "Base Defense" has been undergoing a radical change...and will continue to evolve dramatically, I believe, as little more than a Starting Point. As my Monicker says:

ALL Packs are "Sub Packs".

I see the "Bases" of the Future continuing to evolve ~ as they have indeed already been evolving ~ into little more than "Fronts" ~ in a FAR different sense of the word!! ~ that are as likely as not to Morph the instant the ball is snapped!!

You might want to pump the brakes a bit. In terms of proven ability, the Patriots have rarely had less on the edge than they do now.

In terms of proven ability, maybe. But in terms of talent, this is the most talented group the Pats have possibly had since 2007, especially if Andre Carter is re-signed. In 2007 the Pats had Seymour and Warren outside in a 3-4 with Vrabel, Colvin, Adalius Thomas and Junior Seau (mostly playing inside with Tedy Bruschi). Since then the Pats have tried to deal with the liked of Pierre Woods, Shawn Crable, Vince Redd. Tully Banta-Cain was never more than a journeyman and a decent sub-rusher, and Derrick Burgess was a terrible trade made out of desperation in 2009. Meanwhile Rob Ninkovich has evolved into a solid edge player, Andre Carter (if he comes back) was an all-pro, Trevor Scott had 2 solid seasons at the elephant in sub packages for the Raiders before tearing his ACL in 2010. And Chandler, Jones, Jake Bequette and Dont'a Hightower were all solid performers who should be expected to add considerable talent to the edge. It's easy to lament the loss of Mark Anderson now, but a year ago he hadn't done much since his rookie season.

Sure, there's plenty of reason to temper enthusiasm with caution. But it's still hard not to feel encouraged by the potential talent on defense this year in comparison to the past 3 years.

Every player has to start from somewhere. Whilst I agree proven ability is an important notion I'd rather feel positive about the potential of players than not.

Well SAID, Gentlemen!! :rocker:

Anyone who's read me at any length ought know by now:

1 ~ I aspire...to the HEAVENS!!

2 ~ But I presume...NOTHING!! :snob:

 

[Off The Grid]

One Aspect of what Coach Bill the Mad (Genius) did in April that I'm most JACKED about, is that we Patriot Fans ~ we who suffered for 826 years with the likes of Shawn Crable, Derrick Burgess, and Tully Hyphenator on the Edge...now boast ~ and I'm still shocked and amazed to be able to employ this term about us ~ arguably the deepest arsenal of legitimate Young Edge Talent in the League!!

* Trevor Scott
* Chandler Jones
* Jake Bequette
* Donte HighTower
* Rob Ninkovich
* Jermaine Cunningham

Our Edge Talent is so freaking deep ~ OURS!! The PATRIOTS!! ~ that we even cut Markell Carter, to the considerable annoyance of myself and ~ I believe ~ many of you.

And then there's Andre Carter ~ X Factor!! :rocker:

The possibilities are immense.

*******************************************************

As many'f discussed in this and previous Threads, one'f the most explosively exciting Aspects that this flood of Edge Talent has brought to the table is the potential for some wild Formational Potential!!

Or, in the world of Brother Eric Cartman, Fellow Pass Rush Fanatic:

"Let's Go, NASCAR!!!"

 

[mayoclinic]

One Aspect of what Coach Bill the Mad (Genius) did in April that I'm most JACKED about, is that we Patriot Fans ~ we who suffered for 826 years with the likes of Shawn Crable, Derrick Burgess, and Tully Hyphenator on the Edge...now boast ~ and I'm still shocked and amazed to be able to employ this term about us ~ arguably the deepest arsenal of legitimate Young Edge Talent in the League!!

* Trevor Scott
* Chandler Jones
* Jake Bequette
* Donte HighTower
* Rob Ninkovich
* Jermaine Cunningham

Our Edge Talent is so freaking deep ~ OURS!! The PATRIOTS!! ~ that we even cut Markell Carter, to the considerable annoyance of myself and ~ I believe ~ many of you.

And then there's Andre Carter ~ X Factor!! :rocker:

The possibilities are immense.

*******************************************************

As many'f discussed in this and previous Threads, one'f the most explosively exciting Aspects that this flood of Edge Talent has brought to the table is the potential for some wild Formational Potential!!

Or, in the world of Brother Eric Cartman, Fellow Pass Rush Fanatic:

"Let's Go, NASCAR!!!"

Thank God you toned it down a bit.

 

[Deus Irae]

I suggest you ReRead my Post: I quite clearly specified "Talent" ~ not "Proven Production."

But I DID like the "Pump the Brakes" line!!

I read it a couple of times. I had to make sure you weren't actually talking about the Monsters of the Midway, from the way you were pimping those players. Scott's going to be 28 and his "talent" is much more limited since his injury. Bequette is a 3rd round pick, just like Crable. Hightower's strengths aren't really known to be in coverage or blitzing as much as they are in analysis and tackling. Cunningham's done nothing to be considering him any kind of talent at all at the NFL level.

Be optimistic and enthusiastic, by all means. Enjoy this time of the offseason, because it's never going to be better than this, even if the team goes undefeated. Just stay sane in the process*, especially when you're passing off your stuff as an analysis.










*Markell Carter being cut as some sort of bellwether? Seriously?

 

[Off The Grid]

Whatever you say, Eeyore!!

 

[ausbacker]

Post the way you see fit OTG. If I wanted the same style and opinion from everyone, I'd find a homogenous group elsewhere.

 

[IllegalContact]

What do you see as being the optimal personnel prototypes for the Front 6?

A 3-4 NT and a 4-3 DT/3-4 LDE up front; two "Elephants" on the outside; and two 4-3 OLBs in the middle?

sounds pretty close to what the 9ers do

 

[patsfan13]

From Peter King this am touches on OFG's observation about the D being backloaded to stop the pass, info on Rexy and the Jets from Football Outsiders:

c. The Jets used seven or more defensive backs on 11 percent of pass plays, far more than any other team. In fact, only one other defense used seven or more defensive backs on more than 1.5 percent of pass plays -- Dallas. Rex and Rob Ryan sure think alike.

Read more: Tying up loose ends before heading out on my annual training camp tour - Peter King - SI.com

Love to know the % against the Pats. I will be interested in seeing how many DB's they carry in their roster.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Knew I forgot someone. Hopefully Bequette can be in the conversation this year.

I actually believe the 'rebuild' started early. I have long felt that after 03-04 we were sitting with a team that it would take at least 150% of the cap to resign. One by one, choices needed to be made because we won (as most teams do) with players in a contract that underpaid their ultimate performance.
As they came due, the turnover started (along with the aging process).
Frankly, this team had no right to stay competitive without a down period while that was going on. This board rips personell moves a lot, but when you consider the talent on that 2004 team that either came up for a new contract or aged and needed to be replaced, while there was no where near enough money to find a like replacement, it is astounding that 05-11 has seen so much success, albiet not lincluding any rings.
I think it has been remarkably overlooked how there was no chance to keep or replace the pieces on that team due to the cap, and the dropoff was so limited.

Besides, the 2003/4 teams were all 6/7/8/9...year veterans.

Only Vince is left from 2007.

Can anyone say the Pete Carroll years were more productive?

 

[treeclimber]

This thread should a fun read in a few months.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

This thread should a fun read in a few months.

Well, it'll be more fun than reading any of your posts. . . . :snob:

 

[Off The Grid]

I think that we are already seeing an unprecedented amount of creativity and versatility in the use of defensive personnel - especially front 6/7 personnel - in the college ranks. Alabama used to drop Marcell Dareus into coverage at times (as the Ravens have done with Haloti Ngata) and moved Dont'a Hightower all over the defense while coordinating multiple fronts. It's now common to see 320+# guys used at 3-4 DE as well as at 4-3 DT and NT and 3-4 NT. John Jenkins and Johnathan Hankins have both been used that way, and Jesse Williams has played both outside and at the nose for Alabama. Meanwhile SMU used 6'8" Margus Hunt at 3-4 NT on occasion last year with some success, and Missouri used 6'5" Aldon Smith inside at DT quite a bit as well. Willie McGinest was a bit of a freak for his time, but it's now pretty common to see guys like Jason Pierre-Paul, Aldon Smith, Chandler Jones and Devin Taylor with the length, size and strength to play as 4-3 ends, the strength to play inside on occasion, and the athleticism to stand up. These guys aren't prototypical 3-4 OLB conversion prospects who are undersized as DEs. Oregon has used 6'7" Dion Jordan as an outside press CB at times, with fair success.

As college defenses get more creative and players are used in more complicated roles, I think that there will be an evolution in the "processing speed" or the defensive personnel.

Nicely put!!

I see that happening, as well: For 132 years, the Game's changing LandScape has pushed Defenses to develop not only Systems and Schemes that are dramatically advanced from previous years, but to breed and develop FootBall Players whose Processing Speed and Athleticism are light years beyond that of their counterparts from 1880...and with this past decade's changes triggering an Offensive explosion, the Envelope isn't getting pushed ~ it's getting ripped to shreds.

It'll be fascinating to see how Defenses evolve between now and 2020.

 

[Off The Grid]

OTG read this guy's series on a 6-5 defensive concept:

The Bartlett Defense: Part 1 - Personnel and alignment - It's All Over, Fat Man!

It seems like it is flowing in your general direction.

Thanks, mon.

Brother Mayo found that in his travels, and was kind enough to share it with us in his Evolution of the Belichick Defense Thread, which is a tremendous Read.

Looks like that guy has more of a "425" look, if I follow it correctly...But an interesting Read, to be sure.

 

[neuronet]

How do you get your players to LOOK amorphous and disorganized, then at the snap of the ball arriving at a proscribed spot, with a specific assignment to carry out. What few words can communicate all that that message

The question I have, and I think it was mentioned in the 'amoeba' thread, is how well this works against the run? If people are up milling around, aiming to get set just milliseconds before the snap, doesn't that mean offenses can simply pound you? E.g., if you show me an amoeba, I'll show you a Willis McGahee.

 

[mayoclinic]

The question I have, and I think it was mentioned in the 'amoeba' thread, is how well this works against the run? If people are up milling around, aiming to get set just milliseconds before the snap, doesn't that mean offenses can simply pound you? E.g., if you show me an amoeba, I'll show you a Willis McGahee.

That's why the 2-4-5 and more ameboid formations have more commonly been used as sub defenses. And you'd never use it as the base against a "ground and pound" offense. But with offenses trending towards more spread passing, a 2-4-5 base can still be effective against the run if you have 2 very stout and agile DTs in the middle, and if your DE/OLBs have good recognition skills, processing speed, and edge setting ability.

 

[Off The Grid]

I've been thinking about the decline of the so-called base defenses vis a vis the Pats' recent drafts. For instance, I loved Hightower in principle, but had semi-convinced myself that he wasn't a natural target for this team because he fit the classic 3-4 ILB prototype -- a role pretty nicely filled by Mayo, Spikes and Fletcher. Similarly, for the past few drafts people have been scanning closely for the classic 5-technique DE.

But how much do those "classic" positions really exist at this point?

Perhaps I would have been better off thinking of Hightower as an uncommonly aware, heady, versatile player with a 'tweener physique, thus a Swiss army knife to serve multiple roles against the hurry-up.

And while "the next Richard Seymour" would be a fabulous addition, isn't that because Seymour is a HOF-caliber player? Better, perhaps, to ask what "the next Bobby Hamilton" would add to the team.

I'm curious for others' thoughts about how the decline of the 7-man front has influenced who the Pats did and didn't take in recent drafts.

Again: I'm Pulling the Quote out'f the Quote, for those who might respond:

PatChick​

I've been thinking about the decline of the so-called base defenses vis a vis the Pats' recent drafts. For instance, I loved Hightower in principle, but had semi-convinced myself that he wasn't a natural target for this team because he fit the classic 3-4 ILB prototype -- a role pretty nicely filled by Mayo, Spikes and Fletcher. Similarly, for the past few drafts people have been scanning closely for the classic 5-technique DE.

But how much do those "classic" positions really exist at this point?

Perhaps I would have been better off thinking of Hightower as an uncommonly aware, heady, versatile player with a 'tweener physique, thus a Swiss army knife to serve multiple roles against the hurry-up.

And while "the next Richard Seymour" would be a fabulous addition, isn't that because Seymour is a HOF-caliber player? Better, perhaps, to ask what "the next Bobby Hamilton" would add to the team.

I'm curious for others' thoughts about how the decline of the 7-man front has influenced who the Pats did and didn't take in recent drafts.

Off The Grid​

Tremendous Angle to take on things, Sister Patty.

It seems to me that if Defenses are evolving towards "65" Formats and Amorphous D's with the "Market Share" of Snaps being divided up amongst many Packages...and if these Amorphous D's are going to require Players of exceptional Schematic Flexibility, then Processing Speed, Diagnostic Acuity, and the Work Ethic to invest hours upon hours in Film Study are, indeed, going to be at an even greater Premium in the years to come.

Bill The Mad (Genius) always did place great emphasis on these attributes, I believe.

However, it seems to me that he has stepped it up recently, hasn't he??

1 ~ His perceived focus on Team Captains, the last 3 Drafts ~ 2011 in particular, if memory serves ~ got a lot of attention, and well it ought. And while that proves nothing, in and of itself, I believe that it strongly suggests that his focus on the Cerebral and Character Aspects of Prospects has ratcheted up to an even higher level of focus than before. This has been discussed, hereabouts, and attributed to Righting The Ship, in the wake of the Moral Deluge of 2009, and I'm sure that that influenced those moves...But it may well be that he's stepping up his already zealous focus on Players with Schematic Flexibility.

2 ~ Donta HighTower's potential as ~ as you put it ~ a Swiss Army Knife type has had me FROTHING since the weekend we drafted'm!! I can easily see him excelling at SIX different positions, and my opinion of'is Processing Speed, Diagnostics, Vision, Work Ethic, and, above all, his Leadership...are SKY HIGH!! :rocker:

3 ~ Jake Bequette is my 2nd Favorite of the lot, and not by much: I am CRAZY about this kid: His Processing Speed, Diagnostics, and Work Ethic are OUTSTANDING.

4 ~ Brandon Spikes is of course one'f my all time favorite Binkies, and for precisely the reason of what I perceive to be phenomenal Processing Speed.

5 ~ Regarding your Query about "Classic" positions: Yes, I believe that Mad Bill has lost ALL interest in the Classic "34" Defensive End...and perhaps much'f'is interest in the "34"!! We are so LOADED on the Edge that it seems to me that we are PRIMED to develop ~ over the next couple years ~ an explosive Amorphous D that toggles really sweetly between the "245" and "425"...with great success!!

6 ~ Ironically, these Edge Players of whom we have a sudden and shocking surfeit are precisely the kind of players that so many'f us've SCREAMED for, for 826 years, but with a mind to developing them as "34" Flankers ~ OLB's, to you Earthlings...And now that we've finally ~ after YEARS of suffering!! ~ got not only enough but a TON of young Edge Players...it looks ~ to me ~ like we're well on the way to SCRAPPING the "34"!!

Of course, we've still got plenty of Beef around, so I doubt we've seen the LAST of the "34".

We may see a great deal more of the "335", though, as Brother Mayo has posited...

 

[mayoclinic]

It'll be fascinating to see how Defenses evolve between now and 2020.

Some thoughts:

1. Movement skills and coverage ability will be more highly prized, so we'll see "front" players evolve who have better footwork and mobility. 6'7" 245# Dion Jordan plays almost exclusively standing up for Oregon, and is used to being moved around, including covering the slot and playing press CB. 6'7" 260# Devin Taylor is dropped into coverage a fair amount. Guys with "skill position" backgrounds - former RBs, WRs, and TEs - will be converted to the defensive side of the ball. Guys with cross-training in sports such as basketball, with an emphasis on footwork and quick change of direction as opposed to linear speed, with have an advantage.

2. Grappling and tackling skills will be emphasized at all positions. Defenses won't be able to rely on linemen to take on blockers and allow LBs to make tackles, or DBs who can just drop into coverage. DBs have to be able to support the run, and DEs have to be able to move inside as well as drop into coverage. Guys who are strong for their size and who have the hand skills to take on blockers will be at an advantage. Aldon Smith and Melvin Ingram both played a fair amount of DT in college.

3. Guys will be moved around to different positions and have to handle multiple assignments. It won't be enough to be a "one trick pony".

4. More defensive complexity and more schemes will favor guys who can process the complexity. We're already seeing kids coming out of college who are used to playing a variety of defensive schemes and packages. That will become more and more the norm.

We've already seen BB use Kyle Arrington rushing out of a 3 point stance, and the Ravens have had 340# Haloti Ngata stand up as a linebacker and occasionally drop into coverage. I wouldn't be surprised to see a guy like Dion Jordan used as a DB at times. And more players will evolve who can do those kind of things, if the evolution of the game requires it.

 

[Off The Grid]

BB spoke pretty openly after the draft about how much time the team spent in "sub packages" and how the game was getting more spread out, and how that influenced the direction the team went in the draft. So I think that was a major factor. Though I agree with pdangle's assessment as well regarding the ability to play multiple schemes and vary the amount of 5, 6, and 7 man fronts depending on the offensive strengths of the opposing team. So I think that BB was strongly influenced towards guys who fit in a 6 man "base", but also wanted guys who had schematic versatility.

I also think that BB has always been more flexible than the majority of the league to build his defense around his players' strengths, rather than force fit players into a given approach.

If we had Richard Seymour and Ty Warren in their prime next to Vince Wilfork circa 2006 I think we'd be playing a lot more 3 of a 3 man base, regardless of the number of DBs on the field.

I think BB tends to identify his core players and build around their strengths.

If they can do multiple things, then that opens up other options. Vince Wilfork's maturation into more than "just" a dominant 3-4 NT combined with the loss of Seymour and the atrophy of Warren's health and skills all contributed to moving away from a pure 3-4 base. With Wilfork heading towards the downside of his career - a terrible but necessary thought to contemplate - and Seymour and Warren gone, and with Mayo, Spikes and hopefully Jones and Hightower as the future core of the front 6/7, I'm assuming BB will want to build around those guys' skill sets.

Unless BB envisions Jones and Hightower as predominantly 3-4 OLBs with Mayo and Spikes inside, I don't see him focusing on a traditional 3-4 base as much as he did from 2003-2009 or to prioritize drafting prototypical 3-4 DEs in the future, though I'm sure we'll still play some 3-4 and he will want guys who have the ability to play that role.

As for Hightower, I tend to think of him as hopefully becoming what Adalius Thomas should have been - a Swiss Army knife kind of guy who can play all over the front 6/7 in multiple schemes and fronts, and with the kind of leadership skills and processing/coordination capability to help function as an on field defensive coordinator.

That's a lot to ask for, and he could end up doing much less than that and still be an outstanding pick, but a guy who can play that kind of role would have tremendous value in a multiple front hybrid defense - which seems to be the kind of role and value he had for Nick Saban at Alabama.

Beautifull!! :rocker:

One of the best Encapsulations of The Belichick Approach that I've read.