Suspect drafting past few years

[OldNEPatsFan]

I watch them. DVR the ones that I am not around for. Unlike you two. I have some concept of the game. It's why I can actually put together coherent arguments and not just rely on sites that provide stats with no perspective. And no description of how they come to their conclusions...

Nothing like being demeaning to anyone who doesn't think you are the be all and end all, which you aren't.

 

[DaBruinz]

Relax DaBruinz. It's just a message board. You get too personal.

That's just it. I don't get personal at all. I don't attack a person's family, gender, race, creed, or religion. My opinions of people are based TOTALLY on what they post. If they don't like it, they have a few options. Put me on ignore. Don't post. Learn to put together coherent thoughts that look at the entire picture and actually use facts for support.

 

[DaBruinz]

Why are you so angry?

More assumptions on your part. There is no anger here. Stop assuming you know me and focus on what you are actually posting.

 

[The Intimidator]

I watch them. DVR the ones that I am not around for. Unlike you two. I have some concept of the game. It's why I can actually put together coherent arguments and not just rely on sites that provide stats with no perspective. And no description of how they come to their conclusions...

We are talking about the talent this team has draft and how poor most of them have been. Have you watched the LARGE majority of our picks being out of the league or on the practice squad. Do you look over that and do you look at the fact we have had to cut high picks within 2 or 3 years? I dont think you get it. I will give you an example. You can argue about the Lions draft's with Carlos Rodgers, Mike Williams, Joey Harrington and Ernie Sims were all great choices at the time, and they never worked out. It has set the franchise back. It is happening to a lesser degree here as well. You are blind to see it my friend. You are so so wrong here.

Take a look again:


For those interested. Gives you a good look of how each draft has turned out years later.

2008
1 - LB Jerod Mayo - Active, New England Patriots
2 - CB Terrence Wheatley - Active, New England Patriots
3 - LB Shawn Crable - Injured Reserve, New England Patriots
3 - QB Kevin O'Connell - Active, New York Jets
4 - CB Jonathan Wilhite - Active, New England Patriots
5 - WR Matthew Slater - Active, New England Patriots
6 - LB Bo Ruud - Out of NFL

2007
1 - DB Brandon Meriweather - Active, New England Patriots
4 - DL Kareem Brown - Out of NFL
5 - OL Clint Oldenburg - Out of NFL
6 - LB Justin Rogers - Out of NFL
6 - DB Mike Richardson - Out of NFL
6 - RB Justise Hairston - Injured Reserve, Buffalo Bills
6 - OL Corey Hilliard - Practice Squad, Cleveland Browns
7 - LB Oscar Lua - Out of NFL
7 - OL Mike Elgin - Out of NFL

2006
1 - RB Laurence Maroney - Active, New England Patriots
2 - WR Chad Jackson - Out of NFL
3 - TE David Thomas - Active, New Orleans Saints
4 - TE Garrett Mills - Practice Squad, Minnesota Vikings
4 - K Stephen Gostkowski - Active, New England Patriots
5 - OL Ryan O'Callaghan - Active, Kansas City Chiefs
6 - LB Jeremy Mincey - Injured Reserve, Jacksonville Jaguars
6 - OL Dan Stevenson - Out of NFL
6 - DL Le Kevin Smith - Active, Denver Broncos
7 - DB Willie Andrews - Out of NFL

2005
1 - OL Logan Mankins - Active, New England Patriots
3 - DB Ellis Hobbs - Active, Philadelphia Eagles
3 - OL Nick Kaczur - Active, New England Patriots
4 - DB James Sanders - Active, New England Patriots
5 - LB Ryan Claridge - Out of NFL
7 - QB Matt Cassel - Active, Kansas City Chiefs
7 - TE Andy Stokes - Out of NFL

2004
1 - DL Vince Wilfork - Active, New England Patriots
1 - TE Benjamin Watson - Active, New England Patriots
2 - DL Marquise Hill - Deceased
3 - DB Guss Scott - Out of NFL
4 - DB Dexter Reid - Out of NFL
4 - RB Cedric Cobbs - Out of NFL
5 - WR P.K. Sam - Out of NFL
7 - DB Christian Morton - Out of NFL

2003
1 - DL Ty Warren - Active, New England Patriots
2 - DB Eugene Wilson - Active, Houston Texans
2 - WR Bethel Johnson - Out of NFL
4 - DL Dan Klecko - Out of NFL
4 - DB Asante Samuel - Active, Philadelphia Eagles
5 - OL Dan Koppen - Active, New England Patriots
6 - QB Kliff Kingsbury - Out of NFL
7 - TE Spencer Nead - Out of NFL
7 - LB Tully Banta-Cain - Active, New England Patriots
7 - DL Ethan Kelley - Out of NFL

2002
1 - TE Daniel Graham - Active, Denver Broncos
2 - WR Deion Branch - Active, Seattle Seahawks
4 - QB Rohan Davey - Out of NFL
4 - DL Jarvis Green - Active, New England Patriots
7 - RB Antwoine Womack - Out of NFL
7 - WR David Givens - Out of NFL

2001
1 - DL Richard Seymour - Active, Oakland Raiders
2 - OL Matt Light - Active, New England Patriots
3 - DB Brock Williams - Out of NFL
4 - OL Kenyatta Jones - Out of NFL
4 - TE Jabari Holloway - Out of NFL
5 - DB Hakim Akbar - Out of NFL
6 - TE Arther Love - Out of NFL
6 - DB Leonard Myers - Out of NFL
7 - K Owen Pochman - Out of NFL
7 - LB T.J. Turner - Out of NFL

2000
2 - OL Adrian Klemm - Out of NFL
3 - RB J.R. Redmond - Out of NFL
4 - OL Greg Robinson-Randall - Out of NFL
5 - TE Dave Stachelski - Out of NFL
5 - DL Jeff Marriott - Out of NFL
6 - DB Antwan Harris - Out of NFL
6 - QB Tom Brady - Active, New England Patriots
6 - DL David Nugent - Out of NFL
7 - LB Casey Tisdale - Out of NFL
7 - RB Patrick Pass - Out of NFL

Wow mighty impressive.

 

[JFK]

That's just it. I don't get personal at all. I don't attack a person's family, gender, race, creed, or religion. My opinions of people are based TOTALLY on what they post. If they don't like it, they have a few options. Put me on ignore. Don't post. Learn to put together coherent thoughts that look at the entire picture and actually use facts for support.

Otherwise you get to insulting people. You can argue a point without sounding bitter. You sound more intelligent that way. I'm sorry but when you start insulting people you sounds sad. You DON'T have to. We all love the Pats and wish them well. We all have different opinions. We should respect each others opinion or agree to disagree. That is how grown people behave. You fail to behave that way sometimes.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Whatever floats your boat.

Again you missed the point, but even that is besides the point.

You haven't used one solid piece of fact to back up your argument against my point other than getting things mixed up, such as saying Bruschi started in '99 and saying that he replaced Johnson, when those two didn't even play the same position at the time.

No, I do get it - numbers don't tell the entire story. You just had a bad choice of players to compare because Bruschi didn't play as much as Mayo did in his first two years.

 

[Deus Irae]

You ignore the evidence that has been presented to you about the draft and other things. We have all presented how these picks have been horrendous for the most part. You just don't listen to reason dude.

You know, sometimes disagreement is a failure to listen to reason. That's absolutely correct. However, when it comes to the nonsense about the drafts, the disagreement is because some people have decided to go completely insane and expect every single pick to become a Pro Bowl player.

Kareem Brown not panning out as a 4th rounder isn't a problem, because it's the statistical norm. Losing Seymour off the line because Belichick decided to ship him out at the expense of the 2009 defense is a problem.

 

[DaBruinz]

Read the stats sonny boy, oh thats right they don't matter. LOL LOL Only you do.

More BS coming out of your mouth.

1) I never said that the stats don't matter. I said that Stats without perspective mean nothing. I guess you don't understand the difference.

2) What "stats" are you referring to? The ones from Football focus? The ones where a group of FANS who have no formal training in the breakdown of football tape put together what they think they see??? Or are you referring to the stats that are posted on NFL.com?

 

[DaBruinz]

Nothing like being demeaning to anyone who doesn't think you are the be all and end all, which you aren't.

Nothing like talking out of your arse. This is the same bozo who looks at a person's 5 year post count and thinks that he knows the person.

Nothing like actually answering the stuff asked of you. Nothing like actually defending your position. And you are the one with the "sonny boy" BS and calling other people clowns and such.

And you wonder why people develop the opinion that YOU are the one with the issue.

 

[The Intimidator]

You know, sometimes disagreement is a failure to listen to reason. That's absolutely correct. However, when it comes to the nonsense about the drafts, the disagreement is because some people have decided to go completely insane and expect every single pick to become a Pro Bowl player.

Kareem Brown not panning out as a 4th rounder isn't a problem, because it's the statistical norm. Losing Seymour off the line because Belichick decided to ship him out at the expense of the 2009 defense is a problem.

Im not saying every single pick needs to be a pro bowl pick at all. What I am saying that is the a lot of these picks are either out of the league or on someone's practice squad. Even if they could have been contributing players or something that could help this team win. A lot of these haven't. That's what im saying. That has to be put on the front office.. Too many of these picks haven't panned out at all, which has been a problem going forward. I have illustrated why this is a problem. What do we say year after year? We need a TE, We need a RB, a OLB or a corner. 5 straight years we have been asking ourselves this and its a problem. So dont try to defend it because it can't be defensed.

 

[Patspsycho]

No, I do get it - numbers don't tell the entire story. You just had a bad choice of players to compare because Bruschi didn't play as much as Mayo did in his first two years.

If you say numbers don't tell the entire story, then why are you nailing Mayo as either "a bust" or "not worth the 10th pick"?

See, now we've come around in a full circle and arrived right where we started.

You have no premise by which to call Mayo a bust or not worth the 10th pick, since now you agree that numbers don't tell the full story.

 

[DaBruinz]

Otherwise you get to insulting people. You can argue a point without sounding bitter.

That is your assumption. And since its your assumption, its YOUR issue. You should really focus on how YOU present yourself instead of critiquing me.

You sound more intelligent that way. I'm sorry but when you start insulting people you sounds sad. You DON'T have to. We all love the Pats and wish them well. We all have different opinions. We should respect each others opinion or agree to disagree. That is how grown people behave. You fail to behave that way sometimes.

I treat people they way they post. If they post like idiots, they get treated that way. I've always been blunt. It's never been personal except when people start attacking me with religious epithets and such. But, not once, have I ever "attacked" a person's religion, family, race, creed, etc. Nor will I. No reason to.

BTW, usually, one bases their opinion on FACT. Not supposition.

 

[muzz]

Where's Barney the Purple dinosaur when ya need him? opcorn:

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

If you say numbers don't tell the entire story, then why are you nailing Mayo as either "a bust" or "not worth the 10th pick"?

See, now we've come around in a full circle and arrived right where we started.

You have no premise by which to call Mayo a bust or not worth the 10th pick, since now you agree that numbers don't tell the full story.

The whole "numbers don't tell the entire story" is your argument.

My argument is that he's a good player but you'd expect more out the 10th overall selection other than just tackling players 3-5 yards down field. Is it the scheme, I don't know. But when you invest in a high draft choice, especially at LB, you'd think he'd have more responsibilities other than "read and react" which is making him look very mediocre.

 

[Patspsycho]

The whole "numbers don't tell the entire story" is your argument.

My argument is that he's a good player but you'd expect more out the 10th overall selection other than just tackling players 3-5 yards down field. Is it the scheme, I don't know. But when you invest in a high draft choice, especially at LB, you'd think he'd have more responsibilities other than "read and react" which is making him look very mediocre.

What is "more"? More stats, more numbers? "More" is a quantitative term, and not a qualitative term.

He is doing all the things that a 2-gapping MLB in a BB 3-4 Bulloughs-installed system does (not to mention switching to a 4-3 system every now and then), and its a fairly large amount of data to process. The only issue is that he is not doing it at an instinctive level yet, so he is not at the point where he sees plays before they happen. My argument in regard to Bruschi is that he was the same in '98 in regard to trying to process the data, and it was not until '02 when it started to finally click for Bruschi who had an outstanding year, that year and the next with the back to back 2 passer INT's.

 

[Deus Irae]

Im not saying every single pick needs to be a pro bowl pick at all. What I am saying that is the a lot of these picks are either out of the league or on someone's practice squad. Even if they could have been contributing players or something that could help this team win. A lot of these haven't. That's what im saying. That has to be put on the front office.. Too many of these picks haven't panned out at all, which has been a problem going forward. I have illustrated why this is a problem. What do we say year after year? We need a TE, We need a RB, a OLB or a corner. 5 straight years we have been asking ourselves this and its a problem. So dont try to defend it because it can't be defensed.

1.) "A lot of these picks" have been late rounders. Statistically speaking, they SHOULD be working with the general public instead of playing in the NFL.

2.) Every Patriots first round pick under Belichick has been a starter in the league for many years. That's a 100% success rate.

3.) Since 2004 and prior to this season, the Patriots only had a 2nd round draft pick in 2 of the 4 drafts. Those picks were Jackson and Wheatley, both of whom suffered significant injuries during their rookie seasons. Wheatley had become the Patriots' starting #2 CB prior to his injury. His injury paved the way for another rookie CB taken in that same draft.

4.) Since 2004 and prior to this season, the Patriots had 5 draft picks in the 3rd round. Hobbs and Kaczur clearly panned out fine. Thomas suffered a foot injury, but is still in the league, and is now catching passes from Drew Brees. Crable's suffered 2 season ending injuries in 2 years, and O'Connell was probably the worst pick the team's made since the Super Bowl years.

5.) You didn't illustrate anything. You made a faulty assertion and failed to back it up with sufficient evidence.

6.) What "we say year after year" is not what I've been saying, and it's largely been just a bunch of people making piss poor analysis of the team's problems. TE, for example, was rock solid until Graham left before the 2007 season. RB has been fine, albeit not spectacular. OLB has been a problem due to injury rather than draft failing, since the team wasn't drafting the position. CB only became a problem after 2007, when the Patriots decided to let Samuel walk without having a suitable replacement.

As I said, the problem with the draft argument isn't DaBruinz. The problem with the draft argument is the people complaining about the draft. Imperfect is not the same as Godawful. When y'all start realizing that, perhaps the discussion can become more logical.

 

[Deus Irae]

The whole "numbers don't tell the entire story" is your argument.

My argument is that he's a good player but you'd expect more out the 10th overall selection other than just tackling players 3-5 yards down field. Is it the scheme, I don't know. But when you invest in a high draft choice, especially at LB, you'd think he'd have more responsibilities other than "read and react" which is making him look very mediocre.

Your argument is idiotic, though. He was rookie of the year last season, and has had to adjust from the 3-4 to the 4-3 this season while dealing with a sprained knee. I'm pretty sure that when you invest in a high draft choice and that draft choice wins DROY, you're generally going to be pretty damned happy with the selection. To expect more is just ridiculous.

And that's coming from someone who wanted Clady to be the pick.

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't think you realize that the average football career is something like 3 years. Going back over 11 years doesn't do you ANYTHING. Especially when you can't be bothered to put them into perspective. Here, read the red and get educated a bit.

We are talking about the talent this team has draft and how poor most of them have been. Have you watched the LARGE majority of our picks being out of the league or on the practice squad. Do you look over that and do you look at the fact we have had to cut high picks within 2 or 3 years? I dont think you get it. I will give you an example. You can argue about the Lions draft's with Carlos Rodgers, Mike Williams, Joey Harrington and Ernie Sims were all great choices at the time, and they never worked out. It has set the franchise back. It is happening to a lesser degree here as well. You are blind to see it my friend. You are so so wrong here.

Take a look again:


For those interested. Gives you a good look of how each draft has turned out years later.

2008
1 - LB Jerod Mayo - Active, New England Patriots
2 - CB Terrence Wheatley - Active, New England Patriots
3 - LB Shawn Crable - Injured Reserve, New England Patriots
3 - QB Kevin O'Connell - Active, New York Jets
4 - CB Jonathan Wilhite - Active, New England Patriots
5 - WR Matthew Slater - Active, New England Patriots
6 - LB Bo Ruud - Out of NFL

2007
1 - DB Brandon Meriweather - Active, New England Patriots 2nd year as the Starting Safety
4 - DL Kareem Brown - Out of NFL
5 - OL Clint Oldenburg - Out of NFL Currently on the Skins PS
6 - LB Justin Rogers - Out of NFL - Spent time with the Chiefs this year.
6 - DB Mike Richardson - Out of NFL Currently on the Chiefs Roster
6 - RB Justise Hairston - Injured Reserve, Buffalo Bills
6 - OL Corey Hilliard - Practice Squad, Cleveland Browns
7 - LB Oscar Lua - Out of NFL
7 - OL Mike Elgin - Out of NFL

2006
1 - RB Laurence Maroney - Active, New England Patriots 4th year on the Pats, 3rd as the starting RB
2 - WR Chad Jackson - Out of NFL
3 - TE David Thomas - Active, New Orleans Saints
4 - TE Garrett Mills - Practice Squad, Minnesota Vikings
4 - K Stephen Gostkowski - Active, New England Patriots
5 - OL Ryan O'Callaghan - Active, Kansas City Chiefs Also started his rookie year for the Pats before concussions took their toll
6 - LB Jeremy Mincey - Injured Reserve, Jacksonville Jaguars
6 - OL Dan Stevenson - Out of NFL
6 - DL Le Kevin Smith - Active, Denver Broncos
7 - DB Willie Andrews - Out of NFL - 3 years as a special teams ACE

2005
1 - OL Logan Mankins - Active, New England Patriots 5 year starter for the Patriots
3 - DB Ellis Hobbs - Active, Philadelphia Eagles Was a 3 year starter for the Pats
3 - OL Nick Kaczur - Active, New England Patriots Starting OT for the Pats
4 - DB James Sanders - Active, New England Patriots Starting Caliber Safety
5 - LB Ryan Claridge - Out of NFL
7 - QB Matt Cassel - Active, Kansas City Chiefs
7 - TE Andy Stokes - Out of NFL

2004
1 - DL Vince Wilfork - Active, New England Patriots Currently in his 6th year
1 - TE Benjamin Watson - Active, New England Patriots Currently in his 6th year
2 - DL Marquise Hill - Deceased
3 - DB Guss Scott - Out of NFL
4 - DB Dexter Reid - Out of NFL
4 - RB Cedric Cobbs - Out of NFL
5 - WR P.K. Sam - Out of NFL
7 - DB Christian Morton - Out of NFL Spent 5 years in the NFL

2003
1 - DL Ty Warren - Active, New England Patriots Currently in his 7th year
2 - DB Eugene Wilson - Active, Houston Texans Currently in his 7th year
2 - WR Bethel Johnson - Out of NFL Spent 5 years in the NFL
4 - DL Dan Klecko - Out of NFL Spent 6 years in the NFL
4 - DB Asante Samuel - Active, Philadelphia Eagles Currently in his 7th year
5 - OL Dan Koppen - Active, New England Patriots Currently in his 7th year 6 - QB Kliff Kingsbury - Out of NFL
7 - TE Spencer Nead - Out of NFL
7 - LB Tully Banta-Cain - Active, New England Patriots Currently in his 7th year
7 - DL Ethan Kelley - Out of NFL Spent - Spent 5 years in the NFL

2002
1 - TE Daniel Graham - Active, Denver Broncos is currently in his 8th year
2 - WR Deion Branch - Active, Seattle Seahawks is currently in his 8th year
4 - QB Rohan Davey - Out of NFL Spent 4 years with the Patriots
4 - DL Jarvis Green - Active, New England Patriots is currently in his 8th year
7 - RB Antwoine Womack - Out of NFL
7 - WR David Givens - Out of NFL Spent 5 years in the NFL

2001
1 - DL Richard Seymour - Active, Oakland Raiders Spent 8 years with the Pats
2 - OL Matt Light - Active, New England Patriots Been a starter since early his rookie year. This is his 9th season
3 - DB Brock Williams - Out of NFL
4 - OL Kenyatta Jones - Out of NFL Spent 4 years in the league
4 - TE Jabari Holloway - Out of NFL
5 - DB Hakim Akbar - Out of NFL
6 - TE Arther Love - Out of NFL
6 - DB Leonard Myers - Out of NFL
7 - K Owen Pochman - Out of NFL
7 - LB T.J. Turner - Out of NFL

2000
2 - OL Adrian Klemm - Out of NFL Spent parts of 5 seasons (as a starter) with the Pats and another 2 with the Packers
3 - RB J.R. Redmond - Out of NFL Spent Spent 5 years in the NFL
4 - OL Greg Robinson-Randall - Out of NFL 3 year starter for the Pats
5 - TE Dave Stachelski - Out of NFL
5 - DL Jeff Marriott - Out of NFL
6 - DB Antwan Harris - Out of NFL Spent 5 years in the NFL
6 - QB Tom Brady - Active, New England Patriots 10th year in the league
6 - DL David Nugent - Out of NFL
7 - LB Casey Tisdale - Out of NFL
7 - RB Patrick Pass - Out of NFL Spent 7 years in the NFL

Wow mighty impressive.

Actually, if you go beyond just putting up the names from 10 years ago and such to see how long some of the players were in the NFL and playing, you get a much better perspective. Thank you for providing me exactly what I am talking about. A list of players with absolutely no perspective.

You failed on two fronts. The first is that you didn't compare it to the other 31 teams in the league. And the second, you didn't bother to provide information needed to determine if the players made it out of Training Camp or were on the team for 3 years and making an impact during that time.

 

[ATippett56]

With respect to the 2009 New England Patriots, the issue is not suspect drafts but player personnel decisions. Belichick the general manager has let down Belichick the coach.

Seymour vs Burgess
Gaffney vs Galloway
Hobbs vs Springs
Alex Smith
Michael Matthews
David Thomas
Greg Lewis

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Your argument is idiotic, though. He was rookie of the year last season, and has had to adjust from the 3-4 to the 4-3 this season while dealing with a sprained knee. I'm pretty sure that when you invest in a high draft choice and that draft choice wins DROY, you're generally going to be pretty damned happy with the selection. To expect more is just ridiculous.

And that's coming from someone who wanted Clady to be the pick.

I understand he had a sprained knee but hasn't it healed already? We don't hear anything about it.

Also, it's not that hard to adjust to a 4-3 considering he played that in college. That's a poor argument.