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Reiss' take on the final roster

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PatsRI, Aug 26, 2007.

  1. PatsRI

    PatsRI PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2007/08/roster_thoughts.html

    Thinks Vinny won't be on the roster to start if Gutierrez looks like he's going to get picked up by another team.
    Troy on PUP to start the season
    Mills cut and Thomas on PUP for TE
    Has Lua and Rogers making it at LB
    Tory James cut and Mike Richardson on IR or practice squad at DB
    Questions whether Wilson (actually first I've seen it mentioned) was hurt Fri night, if so James sticks at CB
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007
  2. Mike the Brit

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    Cuts Mills AND Caldwell. Not afraid of blood!
  3. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

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    I don't believe Richardson can go on PUP as he has practiced this year. Once you practice, even once, you're done as far as PUP goes. Obviously Richardson has done far more than practice. Its NOT a substitute for the IR. Its a list strictly for guys who came to camp already injured and unable to play. Once you play, the list can not apply to you for the entire year, I believe. So they either have to cut Richardson, keep him on the roster or IR him. He is obviously eligible for the practice squad if they cut him.

    Edit: reading it, Reiss said IR or practice squad for Richardson, not PUP, so the above poster read it wrong. Also, I disagree with Reiss' logic about Caldwell being expensive. Who cares? They are far enough under the cap it makes little difference. Caldwell on or off the roster has zero effect on their ability to manage their roster, salary cap wise, this year, and its Caldwell's last year under contract. And I don't believe Kraft forces BB to make roster decisions on actual dollars basis. Thay would sure piss BB off and become dangerous ground.

    J D Sal
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007
  4. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa Rookie

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    We might be able to get some conditional draft picks for some of these guys like; Caldwell and Mills. Maybe even for a rookie OL like Oldenberg if another liked him going into the draft.
  5. PatsRI

    PatsRI PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually my bad, he said IR not PUP
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007
  6. RayClay

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    He said it was a money issue and if he saves money, Washington looks like a damn talented 5th receiver. Nothing against Reche.

    You've got to keep Rivers over Mills, because he's a real NFL tight end. I said Mills needed to find a position and people jumped all over me.

    There are only so many jobs and you don't get an extra roster spot to keep someone that's "versatile".

    His job was the one held by Heath Evans,and he failed to win it.

    Besides, I like Rivers. Too bad we have so much invested in tight ends, because someone will get a bargain when Thomas and Brady come back.

    We have to keep man-mountain because our second bonus baby tight end can't block.
  7. PatsWickedPissah

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    I'm a Reche fan and appreciate him carrying the fire last season but if it comes down to 5 vs 6 wideouts, I think that Washington has more upside potential as well as STs and Reche doesn't. Given that Reche isn't signed for 2008 either it makes sense to try potential, size, ST depth and youth. Don't see the cap issue Reiss is worried about UNLESS the Pats extend more players this season.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007
  8. DaBruinz

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    Not sure why it would be a money issue to cut Caldwell. The problem is that the Pats have almost 9 million in space. So there really is no need to cut a player based on their contract. If they are cutting a player, it will be based on their play.

    And I haven't seen anyone give any positive look on Washington regarding his special teams play. And that is really the only area he has over Caldwell.
  9. DaBruinz

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    What special teams potential do you see in Washington? I have only seen him late into plays and not able to be the blocks that he needs to beat as a gunner.

    Washington isn't signed for 2008 either because I don't see him producing enough to earn the option bonus he would get.


    Is Washington's play on special teams worth 577K? That is the difference there would be in cutting Caldwell, keeping Washington and adding the 52nd player.
  10. PatsRI

    PatsRI PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree, I can't see cutting the #1 WR you had last year for Washington to save some money when it doesn't seem to be an issue.
  11. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

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    Yeah, that seems to be a big screw up in logic with Reiss that you don't see often. Why cut a guy who is a solid player to create even more cap room when you have plenty already? Its not like all of a sudden Champ Bailey will be available and you'll need even MORE room to sign him. They couldn't use more cap room even if they had it. So why cut Caldwell? That is just silly logic on Reiss' part.

    J D Sal
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007
  12. Mike the Brit

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    If they can't find ways of using cap room this year (re-structures, LTBE incentives) to ease things for next year, then Pioli isn't earning his keep.
  13. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    I can't see keeping Caldwell as a 5th receiver. Not so much to save money but to be fair to a hard-working veteran to find a better opportunity elsewhere. Won't get enough playing time to stay sharp, doesn't contribute on special teams, limited to no upside.

    Even if you think Washington isn't the guy, the 5th WR is a special teams/prospect-with-potential position. Possibly even a gameday inactive. Look for Washington (potential/ST) or a youngster to grab that spot and keep it warm for CJ.
  14. PatsWickedPissah

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    I had noticed your prior postings asking for sightings of notable ST contributions by Washington and saw that they went unanswered. That's why potential is the keyword with Washington, not achievement. He does provide ST backup and insurance for inevitable injuries where Caldwell does not. I do not see cuting Reche as a money issue either as I stated. Pats have cap room.

    If Gaffney is badly hurt enough for IR consideration, Caldwell should be a lock to stay.
  15. AzPatsFan

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    I asked a question in anohte rpost. Pleaase rank the run blocking ability of the WRs. No one really questioned my ranking of Caldwell, then Washington , a step down to Gaffney/Stallworth and then Welker, who tries but is too small and bounces off his targets, and finally Moss, since we haven't seen him in a Pats uniform and he usedto be a "decoy block" more than anythng elsewhere..

    I have now reviewed the big run by Heath Evans against Carolina. There were four key blocks that sprung him and turned the play from a 4 yard gain, into a 50 yard jaunt. Britt had one, as he came through his man into the secondary and got a LB. Mills had another, and Caldwell took his man and pushed him into another defender, thereby blocking two guys, as Evans went right by him into the open, and on his way. Without that double takeout, the play gets 4 or 5 yards and that is all.

    Coaches notice those kind of little things we fans don't... :D
  16. Rob0729

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    Neither Caldwell or Washington are really singed for 2008. Washington isn't going to get his option picked up if he is the #5 WR on this team. He will need to be a legitimate contender for a starting job to be on the roster in 2008 without being willing seriously renegotiate his contract.

    Also, Kelly Washington was born August 21, 1979 and Reche Caldwell was born March 28, 1979. I don't know if Washington being 5 months younger than Caldwell gives him much of youth advantage.
  17. mgteich

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    Sure, he'll do the same as last year and this. He'll simple not use the cap room and pass the money until 2009 or 2010.

  18. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    Not sure why you think the 5th wide out wont be used much. when there are health issues with a few ahead of the fifth. plus we spread the ball around and use lots of spread formations.
  19. DaBruinz

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    Well, I agree that some of the money will be pushed into next year and they sure can use it since, by Miguel's calculations, the Pats are currently at around 5.2 million in free space.

    But, attempting to push 6 or 7 million into next year will be hard to do, though it would make it easier to sign Samuel to a longer term deal, if he wants to sign.
  20. PatsWickedPissah

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    Duh! So much for the yut angle.

    Meanwhile, other posters have cited Caldwell's continued from 2006 excellent blocking. A point I'd overlooked that may well change the outcome.
  21. Oswlek

    Oswlek Rookie

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    Re: Wahington.

    IIRC, it was his lack of assistance on ST that lead to his dismissal. That said, II(also)RC, it wasn't a lack of desire, but concern over his neck issues that lead to this. If he hasn't been playing on ST of yet, though, I don't see why he would have any more potential there than anyone else.

    I still think that he is on the bubble.
  22. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't quite follow the math...that seems to imply that keeping Washington costs money? But whatever the calculation, I think Caldwell's blocking should be factored in to offset Washington's alleged ST abilities. And on the financial front, you could argue that Caldwell may be cheaper to keep for 2008.
  23. DaBruinz

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    How can one say that Washington has STs potential if he's not really showing anything on special teams now?

    I'd much rather keep Caldwell and someone like Willie Andrews or Mike Richardson over Kelley Washington. Andrews and Richardson show MUCH more upside as contributors to the team than Washington has shown. And, while Richardson hasn't been used much on STs, he was a big special teams player at ND.
  24. DaBruinz

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    Patchick -
    I did the math as if Washington wasn't on the team. So, he currently costs 666K against the cap. Adding the 52nd player who would replace Caldwell (O'Callaghan by Miguel's page) would be another 407K. I then took that from Caldwell's 1.6 million cap hit.

    That's where I got the 577K savings.

    Basically, what I am saying is that I don't see Reiss' point that the Pats would cut Caldwell as a COST-SAVINGS move when the Pats already have nearly 9 million in unused cap.
  25. PatsWickedPissah

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    I do not disagree about keeping Richardson (if not headed to IR) or especially Andrews ahead of Washington if that's the choice. Andrews has played decently at safety and has ST versitility.
  26. scott99

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    I can't see Caldwell being cut. As it stands right now, we will be without Moss, Gaffney, Brown & Jackson. These guys may be out for the first few games or more. Unfortunately for our Pats, WR seems to be the new DB. We used to lose DB's like crazy, now it seems like WR is the position where we lose guys. IF Moss, Gaffney & Brown were healthy enough to start the season, I see Caldwell possibly being cut. I think we play the Jets with Stallworth, Welker, Washington & Caldwell. Possibly a 5th receiver like Childress. I still think we can be a very good team with those 4.

    The Pats are so secretive with injuries, for all we know Gaffney has torn an ACL and Moss torn a hammie, who knows ?

    Mills I think gets cut, though I did notice some nice blocks on his part, including te long Evans run. I have become a big Evans fan, Maroney seems to run really well with him as his lead blocker. Plus he's a good receiver out of the backfield. Overall, even though RB seemed to be a concern early in the preseason, watchig Maroney, Morris and Evans run so well aganst a good defense eased my worries. Unfortunately there is now no place for Mills. Though we ar NOW stacked with WR's, I was really steamed that we picked Mills after we picked Thomas. I really wanted Maurice Stovall from Notre Dame, and he looks like a budding star now. We could have picked Stovall over Thomas and still could have picked Mills. Or use the 4th rounder on Marquez Colsten. Oh well, not every draft pick is going to work out.

    Sometimes our draft picks dont work out, yet we get undrafted studs like Mike Wright & Randall Gay. You gotta take the good with the bad.
  27. DaBruinz

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    Washington has been on the field for STs coverage. The issue is whether or not he's done anything while out there. The few times that I saw him, he was lined up as a gunner and couldn't get by the blockers that the opposing team had put on him. And, as such, he was usually late in getting to the return man.

    As I said, I'm more than willing to hear more on what Washington has done on special teams that I may have missed. I had hoped that someone like BOR or Pats1 would have chimed in to let us know what they saw.

    But, as it stands right now, I am not impressed with Washington and don't see that he offers more than a Willie Andrews or a Mike Richardson.
  28. Fencer

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    It may turn out to be wrong, but it surely isn't silly.

    Any cap dollar you don't spend this year can be transformed into a cap dollar usable next year.
  29. DaBruinz

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    I am not sure that Elgin will make it to the practice squad. The kid has shown A LOT and I think that his versatility let to Barthelmes demise. The question there is Hochstein. How hurt is he? If he's not that hurt, then I see the Pats trying to sneak Elgin to the PS with the agreement to pay his full contract in hopes that he'll stay. Otherwise, I see him getting picked up by a Miami or even the Jets. And that will hurt the Pats in the long run.
  30. mgteich

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    THE CASE FOR CALDWELL
    OK, I agree that Caldwell has been more productive than Washington in the preseason. With Moss still out, and Gaffney hurt, I think it prudent to have Caldwell on the 53 for at least half the year. He may be needed NOW. My gut now says that Caldwell has done all that we have asked from him and will get a ring for the patriots.

    THE CASE FOR WASHINGTON
    Washington doen't know the offense as well as Caldwell. So you therefore conclude that pioli was wrong is believing that he has a future with the team? It simply doesn't follow. Pioli has judged that Washington is part of the FUTURE. That he may be active now is simply a bonus. Why give up on him so quickly? Do you really need more potential out of a #5 or #6 receiver? If so, I think that you are being unreasonable.

    THE CASE FOR GAFFNEY
    He might be valuable in the playoff run and playoffs if there are a couple of injuries. If this is important enough as insurance, he should occupy a roster spot, and be inactive until there are injuries, or perhaps until he is 100%, and someone else can be inactive.

    MY ACTIVE WIDE RECEIVERS FOR GAME ONE
    Moss, Stallworth, Welker and Caldwell
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007

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