There IS Room On the Roster For Developmental Players

[mgteich]

We always talk about how critical the bottom of the roster players are for the THIS season. I think that keeping 1-3 developmental players is often more valuable than some the 5th WR, 5th Rb, 3rd TE, 8th DL, 8th LB, 5th CB, 6th CB or 4th OT. If course, this positions can change from year to year.

SOME EXAMPLES FOR DISCUSSION
MAFI - I doubt that he is ready to contribute. Thankfully, being inactive is fine. Our three starters plus Andrews and Sow is just fine. And yes, there will be guard and a center on the Practice Squad.

BOLDEN - I believe Sanders. Bolden may have a future at CB. Perhaps, a year of development is a good investment.

DOUGLAS - He could make the 53 as a developmental player and as a backup punt returner. I can't see this happening, but it is certainly possible if there are injuries at WR. I'd hate to see us use an active roster spot on a backup punt returner. And yes, if we end up choosing between Bryant and Douglas, then Douglas is the choice. We have 8 solid defensive backs plus Bolden as the 9th.

SPEED - I do NOT consider Speed a developmental player. He could have a 10-year career as a solid ST. To be, he is an addition similar to Schooler last year. To me. he either will beat out someone for one of the STO positions or he will be on the Practice Squad.

BOUTTE - I do NOT consider Boutte a developmental player. He is a 1st round talent who was demoted to a 3rd round talent because of injury, and further because he couldn't deal with rehab. If it takes hiring a sports psychologist and a personal assistant for him for 3 months, that would be fine. HOWEVER, if he can't make the team as a 5th WR, then he is probably done. The alternate could be IR for recurring ankle problems or even because of mental health issues. Paying him 6th round pay for a year is a small price to pay. And yes, I could see him beating out either Parker or Bourne.

MAPU THE WILDCARD
OK, I've said it. I don't see Mapu as a linebacker to replace inside players like Tavai or Bentley, or outside EDGE players. I suppose he could beat out McMillan and Wilson, But I just don't see it. I see him as a Dugger clone, but virtually everyone says no. They say that Belichick is ready to change his understanding of what a LB looks like.

In any case, Mapu may not be ready to a LB in the NFL this year. And we have no need for him at bi nickel or SS/LB this year. HOWEVER, apparantly he is a talent that is worth developing for a year. After all, this is usually the way for most draftees. They are expected to contribute after a year in the NFL.

We have FOUR players who may very well start THIS year: the Gonzales, White and the two kickers. And more from a draft is really gravy. But, we do indeed have more. Our two Gameday backups at IOL will hopefully be rookie draftees. Also, Belichick has likely found another top STer in Speed.

 

[archstanton543]

There always is. Unless you've horribly mismanaged your team.

 

[Toofy]

Is Ronnie Perkins getting cut this season ?

 

[hornetfb85]

Mafi - As he learns the ropes this year as an NFL G, I think he steps in as our jumbo TE/6th OL

Boutte - Agree with all points. Could see him getting the redshirt year but hopefully he is healthy and lives up to his previous expectations of being a 1st round WR.

Bolden - See no reason why he can’t replace Wade as CB #6.

Speed - Battle with Cody Davis for a Sp Teams spot maybe??

 

[State]

Matt Sokol in this group? Could he be our starting TE in two years? I hope not.

 

[mgteich]

Mafi - As he learns the ropes this year as an NFL G, I think he steps in as our jumbo TE/6th OL

Boutte - Agree with all points. Could see him getting the redshirt year but hopefully he is healthy and lives up to his previous expectations of being a 1st round WR.

Bolden - See no reason why he can’t replace Wade as CB #6.

Speed - Battle with Cody Davis for a Sp Teams spot maybe??

MAFI
We have 8 active OL's. It was often 7 before the league allowed an active roster spot for an OL.
OT's: 2 starters and a backup)
OG/C: 3 starters and 2 backups.

I would expect that the backup OT would be able to be the 6th OL in jumbo sets. Alternatively the backup OG may be able be called upon to bi in this role. Now, it looks like Anderson or Sow as the 6th OL in a jumbo set.

I'm fine with Mafi making the 53, but I would expect him to be inactive.

 

[DaBruinz]

Mafi - As he learns the ropes this year as an NFL G, I think he steps in as our jumbo TE/6th OL

Boutte - Agree with all points. Could see him getting the redshirt year but hopefully he is healthy and lives up to his previous expectations of being a 1st round WR.

Bolden - See no reason why he can’t replace Wade as CB #6.

Speed - Battle with Cody Davis for a Sp Teams spot maybe??

Cody Davis' spot on STs is secure unless he doesn't come back healthy. Davis is an excellent Personal Protector on Punt Units and he's also

Speed and Isaiah Bolden will be battling with Raleigh Webb for special teams snaps. Webb was the guy the Pats brought in on special teams when Davis went out. After the Chris Board signing, Webb's days were numbered. I think they are even more so.

Mafi's work is cut out for him. He's going to have to battle against Russey, Hines, Murray, and Ferentz to make the team. He's likely one of two game day inactives on the O-line. Because of his age, I think he'd be scooped up by another team if the Pats tried to waive him.

 

[Wozzy]

There always is. Unless you've horribly mismanaged your team.

From 2014-2019 there was very little room for developmental draft picks. They often traded out picks and pushed them into future years. That roster was a veteran laden roster and most draft picks they made were solely based on need… players they thought could play immediately.

The Sony Michel and Wynn draft come to mind, they needed a starting RB and OT and took guys that could play right away to surround a 41 year old QB and Super Bowl ready roster. Most rookies couldn’t make that 53 man roster. Now is completely different from then.

 

[stinkypete]

I think this is a good, deep roster, but 10 - 11 wins is the absolute ceiling unless Mac emerges as a top 10 QB, is replaced by a top 10 QB, or the rest of the roster develops into an elite team. White, Mapu, Boutte, Douglas and Speed have elite upside. If 2 or 3 of them develop into impact players, combined with next year's cap space, we have at least the opportunity to field an elite roster around Jones.

I'd give up a few wins now to give the developmental players a chance. Improves our long term odds.

 

[patfanken]

nice thread.

I think what is missing from this conversation is the value of the PS. So when rosters are being evaluated the PS becomes a big safety net for developmental prospects. You can make close to 200 grand for 5 months work by staying on a roster. More if the team adds some sweeteners. This gives every team gets up to 16 players what amounts to an up close and personal look to determine if they are worth waiting to see if they can make our rosters.

Now that is a LOT of players. But every year 4 or 5 guys end up being called up due to injuries. Of course the danger is that your best PS guys can be poached by another team at any time. But I think recently, because PS's have been expanded, this happens less, but it DOES happen.

I'm guessing that because we already have so many guys on the 90 man roster AND drafted 12 guys (TOO many, imo) we only have a few UDFA's signed. The last 4 guys we picked are pretty much UDFA's we didn't have to recruit

BTW- it just occurred to me. One of the guys I had HOPED we would look at as an UDFA was a 6'2 CB from Holy Cross. I can't remember his name. Did he get picked up to someone's 90 man roster as an UDFA?

 

[mgteich]

nice thread.

I think what is missing from this conversation is the value of the PS. So when rosters are being evaluated the PS becomes a big safety net for developmental prospects. You can make close to 200 grand for 5 months work by staying on a roster. More if the team adds some sweeteners. This gives every team gets up to 16 players what amounts to an up close and personal look to determine if they are worth waiting to see if they can make our rosters.

Now that is a LOT of players. But every year 4 or 5 guys end up being called up due to injuries. Of course the danger is that your best PS guys can be poached by another team at any time. But I think recently, because PS's have been expanded, this happens less, but it DOES happen.

I'm guessing that because we already have so many guys on the 90 man roster AND drafted 12 guys (TOO many, imo) we only have a few UDFA's signed. The last 4 guys we picked are pretty much UDFA's we didn't have to recruit

BTW- it just occurred to me. One of the guys I had HOPED we would look at as an UDFA was a 6'2 CB from Holy Cross. I can't remember his name. Did he get picked up to someone's 90 man roster as an UDFA?

Yes, we do need remember that other teams can always sign players off of our practice squads. We cannot hid players there.

But yes, current rules make the squads very important.
=====================

There are at least 2 categories of Practice Squad players (MAX of 16)

VETERANS WITH AT LEAST TWO ACCRUED YEARS (MAX of 6)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This is where we put players who used to be a call away. They can now practice with the team and earn up to $19K, and more when they are called up. This is where you put old vets that you might want to call up for a game of two.

DEVLOPMENTAL YOUNGSTERS
This give them a chance to practice with the team, perhaps be called up for a week, and perhaps even make another team's roster for 3 weeks ( the minimum). This is the categories of players that didn't quite make it (example: Wilkerson). Sure, we like to these players for our roster. HOWEVER, if we do, they might just sign somewhere else. This is a great bargain for 10 players, or even more if we don't have 6 vets on the squad.

In the end, we shouldn't be concerned if someone is poached by another team. After all, putting a player on the Practice Squad means that we have someone better on the roster.

 

[upstater1]

I think this is a good, deep roster, but 10 - 11 wins is the absolute ceiling unless Mac emerges as a top 10 QB, is replaced by a top 10 QB, or the rest of the roster develops into an elite team. White, Mapu, Boutte, Douglas and Speed have elite upside. If 2 or 3 of them develop into impact players, combined with next year's cap space, we have at least the opportunity to field an elite roster around Jones.

I'd give up a few wins now to give the developmental players a chance. Improves our long term odds.

The offensive line is the only real mystery on this team.

We don't really know what we have.

If the OL somehow comes together and is actually good, there is no ceiling on this team.

We'll see if Belichick's team building which emphasizes depth and complementary play pans out with mediocre QB and WR play. If the OL pans out, where's the hole on this team? Where's the weakness you can exploit? I always think this i the key to sports. Sure, you'll loaded at these positions, but we're going to attack your weak link over and over. I can see teams destroying our OL but I can't see them throwing on us.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

If the OL somehow comes together and is actually good, there is no ceiling on this team.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I think we have built in the right way and in the right direction.

The defense is solid, we have cap room to keep it together, and hopefully Mitchell, Roberts, Perkins, or someone surprises. Maybe a FS next year? An interior beef curtain? A big ILB? No great need on D if Mapu, Gonzalez, and White work out.

If our ST pickups (Broad, etc.), the rookie kicker, punter, and speed guys (future gunners) are OK, the STs are in good shape.

The offense needs pieces, but in one more year with FA, we should be able to fill out WR, TE, and the OTs.

The biggest question mark on offense is Mac. We need Mac to emerge - hopefully Mac matures and develops with BOB.

 

[mgteich]

The biggest question mark on offense is Mac. We need Mac to emerge - hopefully Mac matures and develops with BOB.

1) I agree that the Defense will be fine. Belichick will continue to replace or upgrade where he needs to. We have a yop Defense now, and, as you say, you won't have cap trouble in the next couple of years.

2) I think that the Special Teams will be fine, now that Belichick is ack from his one-year sabbatical. He is great at finding special teams. Besides Davis is back and we've add Board and Speed. And our #4 RB may be healthy enough to be the solid special teamer that he is when healthy.

3) However, I think the Offense is about more than Mac. The only part of the Offense that is solid are the RB's and, curiously, the WR's.

4) Mac is indeed the biggest question mark.

5) But what about TE? No one is signed for next year.

6) WHAT ABOUT THE OL?
We need to PLAN for Onwenu being gone and for a center when Andrews is gone. We will ASSUME that both Sow and Andrews are future starters, in 2024 if necessary. HOPEFULLY, Anderson will be a swing R next year as well as this year.

I don't think that we can plug in late rounders and think that the job is done.

2024
The issue is that we will likely lose 3-4 of our starters in 2024.

All that we reliably have is for 2024 Strange, Anderson and several unproven youngsters. I suppose that I can count on one more Andrews/Andrews. Worst case, Belichick acquires a free agent center and a draftee. So, I'll count on the center position as under control for 2024. We'll might have Russey or someone else and available for 2024 as competitor for the backup position. So, FOUR positions filled, counting on Andrews and Anderson, plus Belichick's ability to fine a veteran or draftee as needed.
=======================

WE STILL NEED FIVE OL PLAYERS (presuming that we carry nine).

We will need 2-3 OT's. If we move Strange or Sow, we will just create the need for a starting OG. I'm 100% excited about cross-training both Strange and Sow at OT. Then, we won't need a 4th OT on the 53. Also, it seems quite possible that one of the top 3 OT's will be out for a few games, on IR or retired.

So, who do we have to fill five more spots?
OT - we need two starters.
OC - no additional need
OG - We need one starter (Sow for now)
IOL - we need a Game Day backup OG
IOL inactive backup (this can be a draftee or vet signed next off-season).

BACKUP OG: We could count on Mafi or Hines

BOTTOM LINE
If Onwenu goes, we need 2 OG starters, 2 OT starters.
Strange and Sow may be GREAT, but at best , they are only TWO top OL's. We will have need at 4 positions.

AN ASIDE
I think that I was very generous, and we still are short 2 OL starters for 2024. I presumed
1) Center isn't an issue, having Andrews, Andrews and a 2023 Practice Squad player, or a 2024 acquisition.
2) Sow will succeed and be a 2024 starter.
3) Either Hines or Mafi will work out to be good enough to be our Game Day IOL backup.
4) An additional backup can be found from the draft or through acquisitions.
5) Anderson will return as a healthy solid Game Day swing OT.

FINALLY
For 2023, the only issue for me is the cross-training of Strange and Sow in case there aren't enough 3 healthy NFL quality OT's available for one or more of our games. Perhaps I worry too much. After all, we have 6 OT's on the roster including 5 veterans plus Steuber.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

1) I agree that the Defense will be fine. Belichick will continue to replace or upgrade where he needs to. We have a yop Defense now, and, as you say, you won't have cap trouble in the next couple of years.

2) I think that the Special Teams will be fine, now that Belichick is ack from his one-year sabbatical. He is great at finding special teams. Besides Davis is back and we've add Board and Speed. And our #4 RB may be healthy enough to be the solid special teamer that he is when healthy.

3) However, I think the Offense is about more than Mac. The only part of the Offense that is solid are the RB's and, curiously, the WR's.

4) Mac is indeed the biggest question mark.

5) But what about TE? No one is signed for next year.

6) WHAT ABOUT THE OL?
We need to PLAN for Onwenu being gone and for a center when Andrews is gone. We will ASSUME that both Sow and Andrews are future starters, in 2024 if necessary. HOPEFULLY, Anderson will be a swing R next year as well as this year.

I don't think that we can plug in late rounders and think that the job is done.

2024
The issue is that we will likely lose 3-4 of our starters in 2024.

All that we reliably have is for 2024 Strange, Anderson and several unproven youngsters. I suppose that I can count on one more Andrews/Andrews. Worst case, Belichick acquires a free agent center and a draftee. So, I'll count on the center position as under control for 2024. We'll might have Russey or someone else and available for 2024 as competitor for the backup position. So, FOUR positions filled, counting on Andrews and Anderson, plus Belichick's ability to fine a veteran or draftee as needed.
=======================

WE STILL NEED FIVE OL PLAYERS (presuming that we carry nine).

We will need 2-3 OT's. If we move Strange or Sow, we will just create the need for a starting OG. I'm 100% excited about cross-training both Strange and Sow at OT. Then, we won't need a 4th OT on the 53. Also, it seems quite possible that one of the top 3 OT's will be out for a few games, on IR or retired.

So, who do we have to fill five more spots?
OT - we need two starters.
OC - no additional need
OG - We need one starter (Sow for now)
IOL - we need a Game Day backup OG
IOL inactive backup (this can be a draftee or vet signed next off-season).

BACKUP OG: We could count on Mafi or Hines

BOTTOM LINE
If Onwenu goes, we need 2 OG starters, 2 OT starters.
Strange and Sow may be GREAT, but at best , they are only TWO top OL's. We will have need at 4 positions.

AN ASIDE
I think that I was very generous, and we still are short 2 OL starters for 2024. I presumed
1) Center isn't an issue, having Andrews, Andrews and a 2023 Practice Squad player, or a 2024 acquisition.
2) Sow will succeed and be a 2024 starter.
3) Either Hines or Mafi will work out to be good enough to be our Game Day IOL backup.
4) An additional backup can be found from the draft or through acquisitions.
5) Anderson will return as a healthy solid Game Day swing OT.

FINALLY
For 2023, the only issue for me is the cross-training of Strange and Sow in case there aren't enough 3 healthy NFL quality OT's available for one or more of our games. Perhaps I worry too much. After all, we have 6 OT's on the roster including 5 veterans plus Steuber.

Kind of a long post . I might look at the team building a little simpler.

I think between Mafi, and Hines, and Russey, and Andrews, and Sow, we will be OK at Center and RG, Strange will be the LG. We have a lot of cap space so we can sign JAGs as backups. So I do not see IOL or OL backups as any issue for the next few years. The issue is the OL tackles. Signing a RT in FA is a possibility, but gets expensive. Signing a LT is very expensive so BB usually avoids that.

TEs are not so expensive, so I think Gesicki can be resigned and we can fill out the TEs in FA. Safeties are not too expensive so maybe we can sign a FS. BB can find a beef curtain, ILB, and other "middle of the road" guys in FA. The holes that we need to fill are the holes that are very pricey in FA which include OT and WR (we have CB and Edge on the team already). So I assume BB fills out the team in FA by signing "middle of the road" guys and JAGs, except for OT and WR, and next year we are drafting the OT and WR we all thought the Pats would draft this year.

I can see us having a pretty complete team next year. That all assumes Mac emerges. Big assumption but I am hopeful.

 

[mgteich]

Kind of a long post . I might look at the team building a little simpler.

I think between Mafi, and Hines, and Russey, and Andrews, and Sow, we will be OK at Center and RG, Strange will be the LG. We have a lot of cap space so we can sign JAGs as backups. So I do not see IOL or OL backups as any issue for the next few years. The issue is the OL tackles. Signing a RT in FA is a possibility, but gets expensive. Signing a LT is very expensive so BB usually avoids that.

TEs are not so expensive, so I think Gesicki can be resigned and we can fill out the TEs in FA. Safeties are not too expensive so maybe we can sign a FS. BB can find a beef curtain, ILB, and other "middle of the road" guys in FA. The holes that we need to fill are the holes that are very pricey in FA which include OT and WR (we have CB and Edge on the team already). So I assume BB fills out the team in FA by signing "middle of the road" guys and JAGs, except for OT and WR, and next year we are drafting the OT and WR we all thought the Pats would draft this year.

I can see us having a pretty complete team next year. That all assumes Mac emerges. Big assumption but I am hopeful.

Yes, I am one of the posters who seems to specialize in long posts.
====================================
CENTER - OK
GUARDS - I am not at all sure that we are OK for years. For me, someone (Sow) will likely emerge as a 2024 starter. I suspect more signings in 2024. However, I agree that we have starters for the next couple of years (problems always one injury away).
TIGHT ENDS - I disagree. I do NOT think that it easy to sign free agents TE's that fit our system. Other than Gronk, we haven't found this easy at all. That being said, we may be able to re-sign both Henry and Gisecki. They may like it here.
TACKLE
I'm actually OK with 2023. Belichick used free agency and probably did better than he could do in the draft. OT is an important position. I HOPE that Anderson is back in 2024. Other than him, I see nothing but converting an OG, creating a need at OG.

 

[stinkypete]

The offensive line is the only real mystery on this team.

We don't really know what we have.

If the OL somehow comes together and is actually good, there is no ceiling on this team.

We'll see if Belichick's team building which emphasizes depth and complementary play pans out with mediocre QB and WR play. If the OL pans out, where's the hole on this team? Where's the weakness you can exploit? I always think this i the key to sports. Sure, you'll loaded at these positions, but we're going to attack your weak link over and over. I can see teams destroying our OL but I can't see them throwing on us.

I agree that if the OL pans out, the team does not have an obvious weakness to attack.

Still, this team has a ceiling unless and until the offense develops the consistency to match a more explosive opponent blow by blow. The path to the Super Bowl goes through Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Jackson, Lawrence and Herbert for the foreseeable future, which means that, for the foreseeable future, the Patriots will be an inferior passing team in the AFC.

 

[mgteich]

I agree that if the OL pans out, the team does not have an obvious weakness to attack.

Still, this team has a ceiling unless and until the offense develops the consistency to match a more explosive opponent blow by blow. The path to the Super Bowl goes through Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Jackson, Lawrence and Herbert for the foreseeable future, which means that, for the foreseeable future, the Patriots will be an inferior passing team in the AFC.

To you an "inferior passing game" seems to mean that it is not as good as other top playoff teams. I agree with that assessment.

HOWEVER, we could win with a top 5 defense and a top 10 offense.

In a winning year, we might have the best or one of the top 2 defenses in the AFC, the top ST group, and be top 5 in points scored.