Reiss' take on the final roster

[Oswlek]

Re: Wahington.

IIRC, it was his lack of assistance on ST that lead to his dismissal. That said, II(also)RC, it wasn't a lack of desire, but concern over his neck issues that lead to this. If he hasn't been playing on ST of yet, though, I don't see why he would have any more potential there than anyone else.

I still think that he is on the bubble.

 

[patchick]

Is Washington's play on special teams worth 577K? That is the difference there would be in cutting Caldwell, keeping Washington and adding the 52nd player.

I don't quite follow the math...that seems to imply that keeping Washington costs money? But whatever the calculation, I think Caldwell's blocking should be factored in to offset Washington's alleged ST abilities. And on the financial front, you could argue that Caldwell may be cheaper to keep for 2008.

 

[DaBruinz]

I had noticed your prior postings asking for sightings of notable ST contributions by Washington and saw that they went unanswered. That's why potential is the keyword with Washington, not achievement. He does provide ST backup and insurance for inevitable injuries where Caldwell does not. I do not see cuting Reche as a money issue either as I stated. Pats have cap room.

If Gaffney is badly hurt enough for IR consideration, Caldwell should be a lock to stay.

How can one say that Washington has STs potential if he's not really showing anything on special teams now?

I'd much rather keep Caldwell and someone like Willie Andrews or Mike Richardson over Kelley Washington. Andrews and Richardson show MUCH more upside as contributors to the team than Washington has shown. And, while Richardson hasn't been used much on STs, he was a big special teams player at ND.

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't quite follow the math...that seems to imply that keeping Washington costs money? But whatever the calculation, I think Caldwell's blocking should be factored in to offset Washington's alleged ST abilities. And on the financial front, you could argue that Caldwell may be cheaper to keep for 2008.

Patchick -
I did the math as if Washington wasn't on the team. So, he currently costs 666K against the cap. Adding the 52nd player who would replace Caldwell (O'Callaghan by Miguel's page) would be another 407K. I then took that from Caldwell's 1.6 million cap hit.

That's where I got the 577K savings.

Basically, what I am saying is that I don't see Reiss' point that the Pats would cut Caldwell as a COST-SAVINGS move when the Pats already have nearly 9 million in unused cap.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I do not disagree about keeping Richardson (if not headed to IR) or especially Andrews ahead of Washington if that's the choice. Andrews has played decently at safety and has ST versitility.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I can't see Caldwell being cut. As it stands right now, we will be without Moss, Gaffney, Brown & Jackson. These guys may be out for the first few games or more. Unfortunately for our Pats, WR seems to be the new DB. We used to lose DB's like crazy, now it seems like WR is the position where we lose guys. IF Moss, Gaffney & Brown were healthy enough to start the season, I see Caldwell possibly being cut. I think we play the Jets with Stallworth, Welker, Washington & Caldwell. Possibly a 5th receiver like Childress. I still think we can be a very good team with those 4.

The Pats are so secretive with injuries, for all we know Gaffney has torn an ACL and Moss torn a hammie, who knows ?

Mills I think gets cut, though I did notice some nice blocks on his part, including te long Evans run. I have become a big Evans fan, Maroney seems to run really well with him as his lead blocker. Plus he's a good receiver out of the backfield. Overall, even though RB seemed to be a concern early in the preseason, watchig Maroney, Morris and Evans run so well aganst a good defense eased my worries. Unfortunately there is now no place for Mills. Though we ar NOW stacked with WR's, I was really steamed that we picked Mills after we picked Thomas. I really wanted Maurice Stovall from Notre Dame, and he looks like a budding star now. We could have picked Stovall over Thomas and still could have picked Mills. Or use the 4th rounder on Marquez Colsten. Oh well, not every draft pick is going to work out.

Sometimes our draft picks dont work out, yet we get undrafted studs like Mike Wright & Randall Gay. You gotta take the good with the bad.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Wahington.

IIRC, it was his lack of assistance on ST that lead to his dismissal. That said, II(also)RC, it wasn't a lack of desire, but concern over his neck issues that lead to this. If he hasn't been playing on ST of yet, though, I don't see why he would have any more potential there than anyone else.

I still think that he is on the bubble.

Washington has been on the field for STs coverage. The issue is whether or not he's done anything while out there. The few times that I saw him, he was lined up as a gunner and couldn't get by the blockers that the opposing team had put on him. And, as such, he was usually late in getting to the return man.

As I said, I'm more than willing to hear more on what Washington has done on special teams that I may have missed. I had hoped that someone like BOR or Pats1 would have chimed in to let us know what they saw.

But, as it stands right now, I am not impressed with Washington and don't see that he offers more than a Willie Andrews or a Mike Richardson.

 

[Fencer]

Yeah, that seems to be a big screw up in logic with Reiss that you don't see often. Why cut a guy who is a solid player to create even more cap room when you have plenty already? Its not like all of a sudden Champ Bailey will be available and you'll need even MORE room to sign him. They couldn't use more cap room even if they had it. So why cut Caldwell? That is just silly logic on Reiss' part.

J D Sal

It may turn out to be wrong, but it surely isn't silly.

Any cap dollar you don't spend this year can be transformed into a cap dollar usable next year.

 

[DaBruinz]

I am not sure that Elgin will make it to the practice squad. The kid has shown A LOT and I think that his versatility let to Barthelmes demise. The question there is Hochstein. How hurt is he? If he's not that hurt, then I see the Pats trying to sneak Elgin to the PS with the agreement to pay his full contract in hopes that he'll stay. Otherwise, I see him getting picked up by a Miami or even the Jets. And that will hurt the Pats in the long run.

 

[mgteich]

THE CASE FOR CALDWELL
OK, I agree that Caldwell has been more productive than Washington in the preseason. With Moss still out, and Gaffney hurt, I think it prudent to have Caldwell on the 53 for at least half the year. He may be needed NOW. My gut now says that Caldwell has done all that we have asked from him and will get a ring for the patriots.

THE CASE FOR WASHINGTON
Washington doen't know the offense as well as Caldwell. So you therefore conclude that pioli was wrong is believing that he has a future with the team? It simply doesn't follow. Pioli has judged that Washington is part of the FUTURE. That he may be active now is simply a bonus. Why give up on him so quickly? Do you really need more potential out of a #5 or #6 receiver? If so, I think that you are being unreasonable.

THE CASE FOR GAFFNEY
He might be valuable in the playoff run and playoffs if there are a couple of injuries. If this is important enough as insurance, he should occupy a roster spot, and be inactive until there are injuries, or perhaps until he is 100%, and someone else can be inactive.

MY ACTIVE WIDE RECEIVERS FOR GAME ONE
Moss, Stallworth, Welker and Caldwell

 

[JDSal45]

If they can't find ways of using cap room this year (re-structures, LTBE incentives) to ease things for next year, then Pioli isn't earning his keep.

Given the amount available, Caldwell's $1.5 million isn't going to make a difference between doing whatever they want or not doing it. It just isn't an issue.

J D Sal

 

[patriot lifer]

he seemed to be a little too worrisome about 6th and 7th round picks getting picked off of waivers. Oscar Lua?? I don't think teams will be clamoring for a backup inside linebacker who's slow.

 

[JDSal45]

It may turn out to be wrong, but it surely isn't silly.

Any cap dollar you don't spend this year can be transformed into a cap dollar usable next year.

As the poster pointed out above, its less than a million when you figure in adding a minimum player in his place at 53. It IS silly. Its probably closer to half a million in savings this year by not keeping Caldwell. What is the point of that? Completely silly.

J D Sal

 

[AzPatsFan]

I can't see Caldwell being cut. As it stands right now, we will be without Moss, Gaffney, Brown & Jackson. These guys may be out for the first few games or more. Unfortunately for our Pats, WR seems to be the new DB. We used to lose DB's like crazy, now it seems like WR is the position where we lose guys. IF Moss, Gaffney & Brown were healthy enough to start the season, I see Caldwell possibly being cut. I think we play the Jets with Stallworth, Welker, Washington & Caldwell. Possibly a 5th receiver like Childress. I still think we can be a very good team with those 4.

The Pats are so secretive with injuries, for all we know Gaffney has torn an ACL and Moss torn a hammie, who knows ?

Mills I think gets cut, though I did notice some nice blocks on his part, including te long Evans run. I have become a big Evans fan, Maroney seems to run really well with him as his lead blocker. Plus he's a good receiver out of the backfield. Overall, even though RB seemed to be a concern early in the preseason, watchig Maroney, Morris and Evans run so well aganst a good defense eased my worries. Unfortunately there is now no place for Mills. Though we ar NOW stacked with WR's, I was really steamed that we picked Mills after we picked Thomas. I really wanted Maurice Stovall from Notre Dame, and he looks like a budding star now. We could have picked Stovall over Thomas and still could have picked Mills. Or use the 4th rounder on Marquez Colsten. Oh well, not every draft pick is going to work out.

Sometimes our draft picks dont work out, yet we get undrafted studs like Mike Wright & Randall Gay. You gotta take the good with the bad.

If you reviewed the Evans 50 yard run, you know that Britt delivered a nice block, as did Mills, and Reche Caldwell was the key to turning it from a 4-5 yard run into 50 yards, he turned and pushed his man into another defender, taking out two guys, as Evans went by and into the open.

 

[patriot lifer]

how does it work exactly? if they want to put a player on the ps, I know they have to cut him. Afterwards, he must pass through waivers. If another team picks a guy up, like Elgin, does that mean he must make that team's 53? Or can they put him right on their ps?

 

[Rob0729]

THE CASE FOR CALDWELL
OK, I agree that Caldwell has been more productive than Washington in the preseason. With Moss still out, and Gaffney hurt, I think it prudent to have Caldwell on the 53 for at least half the year. He may be needed NOW. My gut now says that Caldwell has done all that we have asked from him and will get a ring for the patriots.

THE CASE FOR WASHINGTON
Washington doen't know the offense as well as Caldwell. So you therefore conclude that pioli was wrong is believing that he has a future with the team? It simply doesn't follow. Pioli has judged that Washington is part of the FUTURE. That he may be active now is simply a bonus. Why give up on him so quickly? Do you really need more potential out of a #5 or #6 receiver? If so, I think that you are being unreasonable.

THE CASE FOR GAFFNEY
He might be valuable in the playoff run and playoffs if there are a couple of injuries. If this is important enough as insurance, he should occupy a roster spot, and be inactive until there are injuries, or perhaps until he is 100%, and someone else can be inactive.

MY ACTIVE WIDE RECEIVERS FOR GAME ONE
Moss, Stallworth, Welker and Caldwell

I don't know if Pioli really decided that Washington is the future of this club. I can argue that the way Pioli structured Washington's contract that he wasn't all that sure that he could be the future of this team, but he was willing to take an one year shot. Washington signed a one year deal with an option for several more. The option bonus makes it near impossible for the Pats to pick up unless Washington is a starter by the end of the season or at least a serious contender for a starting job in 2008. Otherwise, they can let Washington go after this season with insignicant affect on the cap.

I think the case for Washington is that he is a bigger target than Caldwell, he does have more natural talent than Caldwell (athough he has yet to show that he can convert that natural talent into actual playing ability yet in his career), and he plays special teams.

 

[DaBruinz]

how does it work exactly? if they want to put a player on the ps, I know they have to cut him. Afterwards, he must pass through waivers. If another team picks a guy up, like Elgin, does that mean he must make that team's 53? Or can they put him right on their ps?

If a team picks a guy up from waivers, then YES, he must be on their 53 man roster.

And with how bad off the Jets are at GUARD, I can see then doing that.

 

[Oswlek]

I don't know if Pioli really decided that Washington is the future of this club. I can argue that the way Pioli structured Washington's contract that he wasn't all that sure that he could be the future of this team, but he was willing to take an one year shot. Washington signed a one year deal with an option for several more. The option bonus makes it near impossible for the Pats to pick up unless Washington is a starter by the end of the season or at least a serious contender for a starting job in 2008. Otherwise, they can let Washington go after this season with insignicant affect on the cap.

I think the case for Washington is that he is a bigger target than Caldwell, he does have more natural talent than Caldwell (athough he has yet to show that he can convert that natural talent into actual playing ability yet in his career), and he plays special teams.

You are correct. The contract itself - despite its length - actually displays that BB/SP are neutral about Washington's future. He certainly won't make it over anyone else *because* of his contract.

 

[JDSal45]

If a team picks a guy up from waivers, then YES, he must be on their 53 man roster.

And with how bad off the Jets are at GUARD, I can see then doing that.

Yeah, but then they could cut him shortly afterwards after other teams practice squads are set.

I could see Caldwell being a goner if they trade him. Then at least they are getting something for a good NFL player. I can't see them cutting a guy who could do a solid job if the injury bug hits.

J D Sal

 

[mgteich]

Unless Yates or Mruc are available to them.

If a team picks a guy up from waivers, then YES, he must be on their 53 man roster.

And with how bad off the Jets are at GUARD, I can see then doing that.