Reality Arriving...

[Gunnails]

Just a few thoughts...

Every team in the league has depth issues at some position, it's just the reality of salary cap football. Of course no one has any clue at all what is and is not an actual depth issue until the games are played and players do or do not get hurt. If the Jets 5 oline starters don't get hurt, is there a depth issue? If Mangold and DBrick both get hurt, the Jets could have the greatest depth in the league at the oline and it wouldn't matter because you aren't replacing those 2.

I really, really don't understand this whole "homer" idea that gets thrown around (it does at JI in reference to you Pats fans...). Isn't that kind of the idea of being a fan of your team? Of course we're biased, of course we're delusional sometimes...but what fans aren't?! I have no illusions of grandeur that the Jets have the best of the best of the best at every position...quite the opposite. But I also see no reason to be a doom and gloomer thinking that the sky is falling.

The Jets have, depth issues be damned, a very good team. Is it good enough to win the AFC East? Maybe, maybe not. Luckily there's actually games that will be played to figure it all out.

You can ask 5 Jets fans about Plaxico, Maybin, oline depth (or lacktherof), losing Ellis, etc., etc. and the reality is that none of us know how this work out this season...it's just guess work. I'd love Maybin to be the next LT, but I'm smart enough to know that isn't likely. Does it mean he can't be useful to the team? No, not at all.

This season hinges on Sanchez improving, plain and simple. Not losing Ellis, not oline depth, not the influx of rookies on the dline...Sanchez. If he doesn't improve, nothing else matters. He needs to start making others better, not being carried by them. But I guess the bright side is that if Sanchez fails this year, the Jets can just cut him and trade for Hoyer since he must be the second coming.

Any who...I'm sure I'll get flamed, called a homer, etc. etc. but that's ok. I guess it's just how it works on this whole interwebz thing.

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:welcome:

 

[fnordcircle]

FWIW, I agree with you. I don't understand why people are ever surprised when message boards are full of homers.

I go to football parties that sometimes have over 100 people at them. I've met all types of homers. You know the guys who see the other team holding us every play, can't ever see it when we do something wrong, are convinced the league is out to screw us, etc, etc. Every fanbase is full of them, and they're fine.

But those guys are 1-2 in a crowd of dozens so normally they get shouted or reasoned into oblivion.

What happens on team boards though is that you get a larger number of homers and they all start reinforcing each other's view points in a cacophony of fandom-induced blindness to reality. The end result is some really biased stuff becomes a prevailing viewpoint for these people and it's the stuff they post that is surprising - not merely their existence.

EG Hoyer > Sanchez talk, etc.

 

[IllegalContact]

the jets have a similar fragility to them as the colts have had in past years.....yes, most teams lack depth somewhere on their roster, but the jets lack depth everywhere......maybe with the exception of DL since they have plenty of players who have made it work for Ryan, and wilkerson does appear to be the real deal, at least against the run.

the problem for the jets is that they have squeezed every ounce of ability out of their roster while have little to no significant injuries. their defense will be solid, but is a house of cards.....they can't afford to lose a starting LB.....they can't afford to lose a starting DB.......if they do, they will be givingin up 30 points a game since their defense is one that is more easily exploited when a body is missing.

on offense, they can't afford to lose a WR, OL, RB, TE......

the jets are just as close to crashing and burning as they are to taking the next step.

 

[CuseJet]

I go to football parties that sometimes have over 100 people at them. I've met all types of homers. You know the guys who see the other team holding us every play, can't ever see it when we do something wrong, are convinced the league is out to screw us, etc, etc. Every fanbase is full of them, and they're fine.

But those guys are 1-2 in a crowd of dozens so normally they get shouted or reasoned into oblivion.

What happens on team boards though is that you get a larger number of homers and they all start reinforcing each other's view points in a cacophony of fandom-induced blindness to reality. The end result is some really biased stuff becomes a prevailing viewpoint for these people and it's the stuff they post that is surprising - not merely their existence.

EG Hoyer > Sanchez talk, etc.

I think the term homer in general is just overused. A homer is someone that thinks their can do no wrong, has no weaknesses, makes no mistakes in any facet of how the team is run, etc.

Like if I came on this board and started making all sorts of fuss that Sanchez was going to take off this year and be better than Brady, I'd be a homer. If I say that I'm confident that Sanchez will improve this year, but until he actually does it, I'm just stating my opinion based on facts.

It's ok to be confident and optimism for ones team, but it still has to be grounded in reality. At least neither one of our teams are the Bills, Bengals, or Raiders. :singing:

 

[Joker]

Pats fans are Homers....

Jets fans are Gomers....

OK...glad that's settled...what's next?

 

[CuseJet]

the jets have a similar fragility to them as the colts have had in past years.....yes, most teams lack depth somewhere on their roster, but the jets lack depth everywhere......maybe with the exception of DL since they have plenty of players who have made it work for Ryan, and wilkerson does appear to be the real deal, at least against the run.

the problem for the jets is that they have squeezed every ounce of ability out of their roster while have little to no significant injuries. their defense will be solid, but is a house of cards.....they can't afford to lose a starting LB.....they can't afford to lose a starting DB.......if they do, they will be givingin up 30 points a game since their defense is one that is more easily exploited when a body is missing.

on offense, they can't afford to lose a WR, OL, RB, TE......

the jets are just as close to crashing and burning as they are to taking the next step.

While I get your point, it's too vague to actually have any merit. You can't just say "The Jets can't afford to lose a WR, OL, RB, TE......". That is so far from the truth. In reality, the Jets can't afford to lose Holmes, Mangold, DBrick, Greene, Keller. If the Jets lose Kerley, Ducasse, McKnight, Mulligan it's obviously not as dramatic lol.

As someone said earlier it's just a different organizational approach. The Jets, for the most part, have more superstar irreplaceable players on their roster while the Patriots have more talent spread throughout the roster (and having a HOF QB helps ). Are the Pats built better in case of an injury? Of course, there's no debating that. All I can do is hope the Jets don't have an epidemic of injuries this year and see what happens.

 

[IllegalContact]

While I get your point, it's too vague to actually have any merit. You can't just say "The Jets can't afford to lose a WR, OL, RB, TE......". That is so far from the truth. In reality, the Jets can't afford to lose Holmes, Mangold, DBrick, Greene, Keller. If the Jets lose Kerley, Ducasse, McKnight, Mulligan it's obviously not as dramatic lol.

As someone said earlier it's just a different organizational approach. The Jets, for the most part, have more superstar irreplaceable players on their roster while the Patriots have more talent spread throughout the roster (and having a HOF QB helps ). Are the Pats built better in case of an injury? Of course, there's no debating that. All I can do is hope the Jets don't have an epidemic of injuries this year and see what happens.

the jets can't afford to lose holmes or plax or mason......losing any of them alters what the jets are capable of on offense. the jets also can't lose slauson or moore because they have nobdy behind them....

even though the jets can't afford to lose keller, he might only be 3rd on the depth chart for the pats as the play of both gronkowski and hernandez as 21 year old rookies matched that of keller last year.

the jets have been relatively injury free for both of Ryan's years.....law of averages is bound to catch up......especially this year, where player conditioning will llikely be an issue going into the regular season.

the pats have just as many star-quality players as do the jets.......the issue isn't star quality being concentrated, but rather the money spent.....the jets spent more money on free agents while the pats went with draft picks.....

lack of depth also forces a team to depend on starters for a higher number of plays per game......in particular, the jets LB's.......

 

[The Scrizz]

While I get your point, it's too vague to actually have any merit. You can't just say "The Jets can't afford to lose a WR, OL, RB, TE......". That is so far from the truth. In reality, the Jets can't afford to lose Holmes, Mangold, DBrick, Greene, Keller. If the Jets lose Kerley, Ducasse, McKnight, Mulligan it's obviously not as dramatic lol.

As someone said earlier it's just a different organizational approach. The Jets, for the most part, have more superstar irreplaceable players on their roster while the Patriots have more talent spread throughout the roster (and having a HOF QB helps ). Are the Pats built better in case of an injury? Of course, there's no debating that. All I can do is hope the Jets don't have an epidemic of injuries this year and see what happens.

So you can afford to lose your crappy backups who are the non-existent depth to begin with. Great insight.

The Pats can lose a TE and still have another great one to go to, that is called depth. We're screwed if Keller goes down is not depth.

And the idea that the Jets have more superstars is laughable. The only WR I'd want is Holmes, and he isn't as good as Welker. I'll take the Pats top 4 before I'd want Mason or Plax.

We can match the Jets 2 best OL with Mankins and Vollmer and then are better and deeper at every other spot on the line. Solder, Light, and Koppen are all better than the Jets 3rd best OL. Moore might sneak in there ahead of Koppen if he's healthy.

At RB I wouldn't say either team has a true star but the Pats are better and deeper once again.

Keller would be Hernandez' backup on the Pats and their 3rd best TE.

DL Pats have Vince, and so much depth it's sickening while the Jets are counting on rookies and Jags.

At LB the only guy you can really call a star on either team is Mayo. Don't give me Harris either. He's a nice player. Solid and a very good tackler but he is not a difference-maker.

Finally at CB Revis is obviously the best of the bunch but McCourty is a budding star in his own right.

Neither teams safeties are great but I'd take the Pats group over the Jets group and gladly.

Now have we discussed QB yet? :singing:

Basically the Pats have built their team with stars and depth and the Jets have built with a few stars, crap depth, and a salary-cap assist from the Commish that might be one of the slimiest moves in recent history, nearly on par with stealing a 1st round pick from the Pats.

There is a reason that the Pats are able to regularly overcome injuries that would cripple most teams. It's because they are better.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

While I get your point, it's too vague to actually have any merit. You can't just say "The Jets can't afford to lose a WR, OL, RB, TE......". That is so far from the truth. In reality, the Jets can't afford to lose Holmes, Mangold, DBrick, Greene, Keller. If the Jets lose Kerley, Ducasse, McKnight, Mulligan it's obviously not as dramatic lol.

As someone said earlier it's just a different organizational approach. The Jets, for the most part, have more superstar irreplaceable players on their roster while the Patriots have more talent spread throughout the roster (and having a HOF QB helps ). Are the Pats built better in case of an injury? Of course, there's no debating that. All I can do is hope the Jets don't have an epidemic of injuries this year and see what happens.

As a Jets fan, how did you feel when you found out that dead space from players cut last season would not count against the cap? In your opinion, did that validate your team's attempt to buy a championship at the very likely event that your team would have to shed all of it's talent once the salary cap was re-instated. Considering how much talent your team had to shed as it is, do you realize just how bad your team would have been without that gift in the CBA?

Sanchez would have had a chance to take a big step forward with a great running game and OL. What do you think his chances are now with a crap running game and a bunch of questions marks at OL?

You, sir, are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Fixit]

This thread seems to have stung the hearts of a lot of trolls out there, which brings up an interesting question. Do trolls have hearts?

Only the ones they eat to keep the reaper at bay.

 

[Frezo]

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:welcome:

It cracks me up when you do this! :rocker:

 

[BeastoftheEast]

the jets can't afford to lose holmes or plax or mason......losing any of them alters what the jets are capable of on offense. the jets also can't lose slauson or moore because they have nobdy behind them....

even though the jets can't afford to lose keller, he might only be 3rd on the depth chart for the pats as the play of both gronkowski and hernandez as 21 year old rookies matched that of keller last year.

the jets have been relatively injury free for both of Ryan's years.....law of averages is bound to catch up......especially this year, where player conditioning will llikely be an issue going into the regular season.

the pats have just as many star-quality players as do the jets.......the issue isn't star quality being concentrated, but rather the money spent.....the jets spent more money on free agents while the pats went with draft picks.....

lack of depth also forces a team to depend on starters for a higher number of plays per game......in particular, the jets LB's.......

You sure do sound like you have it all figured out. Your'e a smart Pats fan, for sure. A little tid-bit for you: The Pats had more depth than the Jets last year too.

 

[CuseJet]

the jets can't afford to lose holmes or plax or mason......losing any of them alters what the jets are capable of on offense. the jets also can't lose slauson or moore because they have nobdy behind them....

See this is what I really don't understand. According to all the Pats fans, Plaxico will suck because he's been in prison and Mason is too old and has nothing left. So which is it? If they suck, it won't be a big deal if we lose them. I also think people should remember that this isn't the week 1 roster yet. I would think the Jets will take a look at the cuts coming up and see if they can bolster the guard spot.

even though the jets can't afford to lose keller, he might only be 3rd on the depth chart for the pats as the play of both gronkowski and hernandez as 21 year old rookies matched that of keller last year.

I haven't the slightest idea what this has to do with anything.

the jets have been relatively injury free for both of Ryan's years.....law of averages is bound to catch up......especially this year, where player conditioning will llikely be an issue going into the regular season.

Yes, the Jets have been very injury free over the last few years. But again, this is all speculation and no way to know at all if this is relevant. You say it'll catch up, I say it won't. Neither one of us really know. Most injuries are freak accidents anyway and you can't forecast or prepare for it.

the pats have just as many star-quality players as do the jets.......the issue isn't star quality being concentrated, but rather the money spent.....the jets spent more money on free agents while the pats went with draft picks.....

It's debatable for sure but I'll leave the issue alone.

lack of depth also forces a team to depend on starters for a higher number of plays per game......in particular, the jets LB's.......

There's way more that factors into this than just depth, and in fact depth isn't really the biggest factor. Take the LBs for example...the bigger influence on this would be the Jets offense (ball control) and 3rd down defense (getting off the field). How many teams rotate LBs because of depth? They rotate because of 1st/2nd and 3rd down responsibilities, but it has nothing to do with depth. Even if the Jets had the best ILB depth in the league, they aren't rotating David Harris and Bart Scott off the field to conserve reps, it's not an option. Same thing with pretty much every position on the field minus RB.

 

[IllegalContact]

You sure do sound like you have it all figured out. Your'e a smart Pats fan, for sure. A little tid-bit for you: The Pats had more depth than the Jets last year too.

check out the brain on jet fan brad......

yep the pat had more depth, but inexperience (11 starting rookies and 2nd year guys) cost them in the end......there's experience now.....enjoy the future

 

[CuseJet]

So you can afford to lose your crappy backups who are the non-existent depth to begin with. Great insight.

The Pats can lose a TE and still have another great one to go to, that is called depth. We're screwed if Keller goes down is not depth.

And the idea that the Jets have more superstars is laughable. The only WR I'd want is Holmes, and he isn't as good as Welker. I'll take the Pats top 4 before I'd want Mason or Plax.

We can match the Jets 2 best OL with Mankins and Vollmer and then are better and deeper at every other spot on the line. Solder, Light, and Koppen are all better than the Jets 3rd best OL. Moore might sneak in there ahead of Koppen if he's healthy.

At RB I wouldn't say either team has a true star but the Pats are better and deeper once again.

Keller would be Hernandez' backup on the Pats and their 3rd best TE.

DL Pats have Vince, and so much depth it's sickening while the Jets are counting on rookies and Jags.

At LB the only guy you can really call a star on either team is Mayo. Don't give me Harris either. He's a nice player. Solid and a very good tackler but he is not a difference-maker.

Finally at CB Revis is obviously the best of the bunch but McCourty is a budding star in his own right.

Neither teams safeties are great but I'd take the Pats group over the Jets group and gladly.

Now have we discussed QB yet? :singing:

Basically the Pats have built their team with stars and depth and the Jets have built with a few stars, crap depth, and a salary-cap assist from the Commish that might be one of the slimiest moves in recent history, nearly on par with stealing a 1st round pick from the Pats.

There is a reason that the Pats are able to regularly overcome injuries that would cripple most teams. It's because they are better.

Yikes, not even sure where to start.

So Welker is better than Holmes? If you say so.

Mankins/Vollmer aren't even in the same discussion with DBrick and Mangold (aside from the small details that Mangold is a center. And to say a rookie is better than anyone at this point is just mind boggling. I'd let him play some regular season games first before anointing him anything.

RB...I don't think either group is fantastic, but the Pats have more depth. Both are products of the system more than anything though and don't require star RB.

So it's ok that the Pats are relying on a rookie olineman, but the Jets are starting 1 rookie dlineman and that's not ok? huh? And who are the jags? Pouha and DeVito are very solid dlineman that have proven it over the last few years.

Just so I'm clear...Mayo is a playmaker, he of all 3.5 career sacks, 0 ints, and 3 FF...but Harris is just solid...who had 3 sacks and 1 FF...just last year. And that's ignoring the 5.5 sacks, 2 INT and 2 FF he had the year before. If he's solid, I hope all the Jets LB are solid.

What happens when Bodden gets hurt again and Butler has to start again?

Yes the Pats safeties are fantastic, are they still going to cut the all-world Merriweather?

And QB...very close call...haha no. Brady is the man, no way to spin it.

Again, as I said before, both teams are very good.

 

[IllegalContact]

See this is what I really don't understand. According to all the Pats fans, Plaxico will suck because he's been in prison and Mason is too old and has nothing left. So which is it? If they suck, it won't be a big deal if we lose them. I also think people should remember that this isn't the week 1 roster yet. I would think the Jets will take a look at the cuts coming up and see if they can bolster the guard spot..

who says plax sucks? he may be effective, he may not......just as much as injury, the jets can't afford for plax to suck......sanchez throwing to kerley will still be easier to game plan.

as for picking other peoples garbage for OG's, I'm sure that's the answer....LOL

I haven't the slightest idea what this has to do with anything

just a good barb......

Yes, the Jets have been very injury free over the last few years. But again, this is all speculation and no way to know at all if this is relevant. You say it'll catch up, I say it won't. Neither one of us really know. Most injuries are freak accidents anyway and you can't forecast or prepare for it.

its a steady presence in the game.......3 of your 4 starting LB's on the wrong side of 30 and literally nobody who projects to being any kind of regular in the rotation on the bench......you can't forecast for injuries, but you can prepare for them......how do you think brady got his chance? what do you think gave mccourty the opportunity to be counted on for so much last year? what do you think gave green-ellis the opportunity? injuries are actually something that create depth......the pats have had their share the last few years, now the team is deep with guys with plenty of experience.....the issue is so much so that the pats are entertaining plenty of trade suitors for guys they will have to eventually cut.....more draft picks on the way to go along with the 2 1st rounders and 2 2nd rounders they have coming up in 2012.

It's debatable for sure but I'll leave the issue alone..

no, its not really.....but tell yourself whatever you want

There's way more that factors into this than just depth, and in fact depth isn't really the biggest factor. Take the LBs for example...the bigger influence on this would be the Jets offense (ball control) and 3rd down defense (getting off the field). How many teams rotate LBs because of depth? They rotate because of 1st/2nd and 3rd down responsibilities, but it has nothing to do with depth. Even if the Jets had the best ILB depth in the league, they aren't rotating David Harris and Bart Scott off the field to conserve reps, it's not an option. Same thing with pretty much every position on the field minus RB.

except that the jets LB's are 3 down guys.......

as for ball control....not with that OL

 

[CuseJet]

who says plax sucks? he may be effective, he may not......just as much as injury, the jets can't afford for plax to suck......sanchez throwing to kerley will still be easier to game plan.

Of course, but again you can say that about majority of the league. If Andre Johnson gets hurt, are the Texans as good? Reggie Wayne and the Colts? etc. etc.

as for picking other peoples garbage for OG's, I'm sure that's the answer....LOL

As it stands now, the Jets don't have to do anything. They can see how the market plays out. There's surprise cuts every year...





just a good barb......

its a steady presence in the game.......3 of your 4 starting LB's on the wrong side of 30 and literally nobody who projects to being any kind of regular in the rotation on the bench......you can't forecast for injuries, but you can prepare for them......how do you think brady got his chance? what do you think gave mccourty the opportunity to be counted on for so much last year? what do you think gave green-ellis the opportunity? injuries are actually something that create depth......the pats have had their share the last few years, now the team is deep with guys with plenty of experience.....the issue is so much so that the pats are entertaining plenty of trade suitors for guys they will have to eventually cut.....more draft picks on the way to go along with the 2 1st rounders and 2 2nd rounders they have coming up in 2012.

Again, I'm not debating the difference in depth between the teams. I'm just saying it may not matter. Only time will tell.

no, its not really.....but tell yourself whatever you want

Agree to disagree.

except that the jets LB's are 3 down guys.......

as for ball control....not with that OL

Except they aren't. Scott doesn't play on passing downs, neither does Thomas. And the OL is the same as last year -Woody, +Hunter, which showed in the playoffs last year to be fine. I can't see it being any different this year.

 

[IllegalContact]

Yikes, not even sure where to start.

So Welker is better than Holmes? If you say so..

well....holmes is better at getting paid, that's for sure......as for the rest, welker has done more.....its not even close

Mankins/Vollmer aren't even in the same discussion with DBrick and Mangold (aside from the small details that Mangold is a center. And to say a rookie is better than anyone at this point is just mind boggling. I'd let him play some regular season games first before anointing him anything. .

it's ok to mention wilkerson when it comes to rookies, though......right???

Mankins is hands down the best OL in this discussion.......Vollmer is one of the best RT's in the NFL.....

RB...I don't think either group is fantastic, but the Pats have more depth. Both are products of the system more than anything though and don't require star RB..

tomlinson is another year older.......he is what made the jets offense work last year....the same motivations are no longer there......RB's at that age dissipate like a fart in the wind.....

So it's ok that the Pats are relying on a rookie olineman, but the Jets are starting 1 rookie dlineman and that's not ok? huh? And who are the jags? Pouha and DeVito are very solid dlineman that have proven it over the last few years..

who said its not ok to start a rookie DL? show me where someone bashes that......you're the only one who questioned the validity of starting a rookie.

Just so I'm clear...Mayo is a playmaker, he of all 3.5 career sacks, 0 ints, and 3 FF...but Harris is just solid...who had 3 sacks and 1 FF...just last year. And that's ignoring the 5.5 sacks, 2 INT and 2 FF he had the year before. If he's solid, I hope all the Jets LB are solid. .

the jets schemes have LB's blitz all the time......the pats used to blitz very little......but that is going to change this year.....

how many INT's did the jets LB's have last year as TE's tore them a new one?

What happens when Bodden gets hurt again and Butler has to start again? .

when did butler start? so it is obvious now that you didn't really watch the pats last year.

Yes the Pats safeties are fantastic, are they still going to cut the all-world Merriweather? .

more likely trade him than cut him, but I think he will still be here......contract year, need to take advantage of that.

 

[BeastoftheEast]

check out the brain on jet fan brad......

yep the pat had more depth, but inexperience (11 starting rookies and 2nd year guys) cost them in the end......there's experience now.....enjoy the future

The Pats won 14 games last year with those rookies. Did they suddenly forget how to play football against the Jets in the playoffs?

Also, if those rookies all get better, and it sounds as though you know for sure that they will, does that mean they win 15, or maybe 16 games this year?

 

[IllegalContact]

Except they aren't. Scott doesn't play on passing downs, neither does Thomas. And the OL is the same as last year -Woody, +Hunter, which showed in the playoffs last year to be fine. I can't see it being any different this year.

so who is going to go in for thomas and scott this year? taylor and ihedigbo are gone......westerman? maybin? LOL cross your fingers!!!