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ProJo: Still no movement on Samuel

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by T-ShirtDynasty, Jul 8, 2007.

  1. T-ShirtDynasty

    T-ShirtDynasty Moderator

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    http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/sp_fbn_pats08_07-08-07_LV6A79L.3155b9a.html

    Really nothing new here, but the deadline is getting closer, and closer, and they're still not talking.
  2. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    The agent is trying to contact the Pats to talk further.

    Don't write off Asante just yet.
  3. SeanBruschi54

    SeanBruschi54 Rookie

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    Seems like from that statement the Patriots started playing hard ball when he said he would hold out.
  4. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    The best chance the Pats have to sign Asante to a long

    term contract is a last minute deal. Why start any bargaining

    until the deadline is very close? With FAX machines to forward

    offers and counter offers, a deal could be arrived at in a couple

    of hours.
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The agent says this, the Pats have not confirmed it, would suspect that the pats have an offer on the table and their attitude may accept this or do what you gotta do.
  6. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    I hope the Pats show some willingness to negotiate. If the Pats

    and the agent do not exchange counter offers, the bargaining is

    going to fail. Too early to worry.
  7. PatsFanInVa

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    I wonder.

    With no back-and-forth and no endless oh-we're-soooo-close nonsense, I wonder if it doesn't make things a bit more black and white for GetPaid and his dynamic duo.

    As in:

    "Here it is. Clements shouldn't be making Clements money, and you're not him. Here's Vasher money. Mmmmm. Greeeeen. Big suitcase full of Vasher money. I mean, if you want it."

    Otherwise, start bleeding yourself dry a game at a time holding out. We'll get by. I don't know what we'll do if we have to play from behind, what with the horrific state of our receiver corps... OH, THAT'S RIGHT.

    There seems to be nothing more than a shared lead in interceptions for one season, a positive trend-line, and an unlimited resevoir of self-esteem pushing the Asante side of the negotiation.

    What do the Patriots need, that Asante has? I mean, need bad enough to just bust open the piggy bank for?

    Dude, be very rich, and stay here. We'd love to see you. But if you need to be very, very, inordinately rich, well, you know how this team works.

    PFnV
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  8. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    ALL of this - exactly right.
  9. patfanken

    patfanken On the Roster

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    My question is why the multi year proposal the Pats made that Guaranteed about $12-14MM and averaged over $6MM/yr is NEVER mentioned in any of these updates. They only mention that Samuel is one of the best CBs in the league (agreed) and wants to be paid like one. I believe the offer the Pats made fills that description. However since I never see it mentioned, I'm begining to wonder if it ever happened.

    I thought I remember seeing it reported back when Dre Bly signed, because it was about what Bly got from Denver. Can anyone confirm that the Pats actually made the offer?
  10. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    What the Pats need is simply a good starting cornerback to replace Asante.

    They did not sign a good cornerback in free agency nor draft one.

    The Pats took a risk in 2006 when they did not aggressively try to

    extend his contract. They gambled and lost when Asante had a terrific

    season. The question the Pats have to resolve is whether Asante is a flash

    in the pan or an up and coming star.
  11. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    Most would say that a team with Super Bowl expectations, whose pass defense was shredded twice last year by its closest rival in the AFC costing them their 4th ring, would need good CBs. What Asante has is Asante clearly is the Pats best CB.
  12. PatsFanInVa

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    No, that's the question Asante has to resolve, on the field, for the next few seasons.

    What the Patriots and Asante's agents have to do is not resolve the question, but address it. His trend line points upward; his production was at a high level last season; and he insists he is a proven commodity. The Pats could answer, well, yah, you proved that you can have one very high level season out of four.

    So both sides need to realistically adress the question, but Asante's position is tied to getting paid like the best. The very best.

    He might be right. But when doubt remains, risk to the team increases; and even in the case of a Clements or more to the point, a Champ Bailey, there is some risk. If nothing else, any given week could be the injury that makes him a shadow of his former self on the field.

    So the question is treated as nearly settled for the Pats: they are paying him as if they assume he will be very good for several seasons (but not the "best in the game").

    The questions that Asante's camp must resolve are:
    1) Do you want to lose $5M doing a 10-game holdout? and,
    2) When this is all over, is anybody really going to pay you the $10M a year you say you're worth?

    A little more math: If Asante says he's worth that, it's a bargain to pay him 7.9M. It's even a bargain to franchise him again at about 9.7M or so, next year. It's certainly not much of a loss.

    On the other hand, if he were going after $6M per year, it's costing the Pats 1.9M this year, even if he signs the franchise tender.

    With the numbers his camp has been talking about, he has no built-in incentives for the Pats, like the idea that signing him now is a good deal versus the expense of the tag, etc. He's down to the holdout tactic, and that's pretty much it.

    I've said before and I'll say again -- if he can get what he's asking for elsewhere (assuming the Patriots do him the favor of trading the negotiating rights,) fine.

    If he can not, also fine.

    The Pats' secondary may be a weak point, and may always be, if we define "weak" as "top 10" or "top half of the league" rather than "top 5". But they did, in fact, draft a superb corner in the first round, by the name of Brandon Meriweather. It just so happens he plays safety a bit better. They also bumped up the number of "bodies" in the secondary when Rodney and Geno came back, and by bringing in the usual cast of journeymen (Tory James, anybody?) They're patching together the best they can make out of it, and getting ready to go to war with what they have.

    Again, it is fortunate that this year, the offense seems poised to compensate, if corner is a huge issue. The reality is probably more that it will not be a huge issue, and the Pats will spend the better part of the season not playing from behind. But I see their offensive abilities as giving them the firepower to do so if need be.

    Again, it helps when contemplating the loss of another good player, in Asante Samuel. It would help more not to lose Asante Samuel.

    But if he insists that his value is not where he falls in the Pats' brain trust's scheme of things, what can I say?

    In Hebrew, shalom is hello and goodbye. There's an old joke - If somebody leaves after you said it, you said goodbye.

    I understand Asante is Swahili for "Hello"... does it mean "goodbye" too?

    waxing randomly rhetorical,

    PFnV
  13. PatsFanInVa

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    Clearly, but only as of last season really. People didn't even notice him prior to that, other than as a project who's "really coming along." I think he came into the league right around the same time as Eugene Wilson... I remember Wilson was "the good one" at first, and Samuel was like "ummmm well maybe he'll come along."

    Don't get me wrong. I think the likelihood is he'll play at a high level for a good number of years in this league. And I am an unrepentent kool-aid drinker. If the Pats brass suddenly caved... well, I think I would scratch my head and try to figure out why they were right to do so.

    But my guess is they will not. If what people are saying here is right, we will know a good deal in the next week or two.

    But I'm ready to watch the secondary step up, sans Samuel.

    You can't have everything. Where would you put it?

    PFnV
  14. MoLewisrocks

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    Only problem is they were "shredded" as you say with Asante ON THE FIELD AS THE STARTING LCB because several of his much ballyhooed picks came courtesy of two the piss poorest QB's in the league. Of course we also have a RCB who played with a broken wrist almost all season who sparked the floundering secondary Asante was also the LCB of in 2005 when he was inserted as a rookie, who as it happened was tapped as the LCB coming out of camp prior to his injury and still played extremely well down the stretch in a cast...so it's debateable who the "best" CB on the roster is. And they've added depth with a former pro bowl veteran who has yet to exterience playing under this staff not to mention the UDFA rookie who won a superbowl ring playing along side Asante in 2004 among others as reserves.

    They do need GOOD CB's and are apparently willing to pay accordingly. They don't need nor can they truly afford - because of the way this defense is built - a Champ Bailey in this secondary all things being equal, so what possible incentive is there for them to pay a good CB Champ Bailey money? None if you want to retain your elite young DL and maintain a top tier veteran LB corps. Because we know for a fact that if you have issues there, or with the safety position, havng Asante Samuel anchoring your defensive backfield isn't going to make it all better.
  15. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Reiss among others reported back in March or April that the Pat's had offered him a deal that averaged $6M per. No mention of bonus or guaranteed money, although there have since been reports that it was in the $12-13M range. No mention of length of deal either, and that generally effects signing bonus or guaranteed money - could be he's being offered the standard half up front, but only on a 4 year deal. On a 6 year deal he'd be looking for upwards of $18M in guarantees. Could also be the offer key is it's average - could be backloaded salary where all he possibly sees after the first 3 of 6 is $12M or so.

    Without knowing details it's really difficult to judge these deals comparatively. Although if the Pat's were screwing with him I have a feeling his camp would have piped up to correct the misperception that he was being offered a legit $6M per, and they haven't. So the problem seems to be he wants $7-8M or more per with upwards of $20M (or 3 years or 50%)guaranteed

    Dry's deal reportedly guaranteed $16M. Clements deal guaranteed $22M. The deal they offered Asante in November of last year had $7.5M in bonus/guarantees and was likely in the $4-4.5M range. They've come up substantially since, but apparently so have his demands. I think if they didn't think he was Champ Bailey last fall, 10 picks against the competition he got most of his courtesy of, didn't dramatically change their long term evaluation of his talent. They have always thought he has the potential to be very good, but he's not an elite talent nor has he yet proven how consistently he can be even a very good talent.
  16. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I guess this issue continues to be something to talk about before camp starts. I expect that in last July, we'll find out what 2008 draft pick we will receive for Asante. A second is my best guess.

    The team believes in their current defensive backs, or they would have used #28 or #91 the draft one. Hobbs will play with both arms this year.

    CB: Hobbs, Scott, Gay, James, Meriweather
    S: Wilson, Harrison, Sanders, Hawkins, Andrews, Mitchell

    This doesn't count Williams, Spann, Baker and Richardson

    I suspect that the team is fine with this group, even if posters are not. Sure the team would like to sign Samuel. They wanted to sign Law badly last year.

    Let the posturing continue!
  17. Patsfanin Philly

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    Amen. I think they looked at the big picture and decided ( as they do for almost everyone Brady and Seymour excluded) that thye are worth $X per year. If they want more, there is the door ( see Milloy, L and Law, T. for reference) and good luck in your future endeavors.
    I believe that they think that the secondary with all the players is one that is good enough to win the Super Bowl without Samuel. Look at who was on the field at the end of SB 38 and 39 in the secondary. The Pats are due to have a year with relatively few secondary injuries after what seems like an annual parade of injuries.
    If they get a second rounder, I'm sure that they'll put conditions in to ensure that it's a high ( at least the top half) of the second round similar to what Denver did a few years back.....and hopefully it will be out of conference.....
  18. PatsWickedPissah

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    Why trade Asante in late July for a 2008 #2 pick when he can be kept on the roster AND traded next year? You really think he's going to miss an entire season?
  19. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And you think that you can force a player to play at a probowl level and get injured.?

    Asante in late July for a 2008 #2 pick when he can be kept on the roster AND traded next year? You really think he's going to miss an entire season?[/QUOTE]
  20. MoLewisrocks

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    I know it sounds insane but he could well sit out the first 8 weeks, report in week 9, rest over the bye, be ready in week 11 and make $4M+ while assuming half the career risk this season and believe with just 3-4 picks in a shortened season his value would grow exponentially. Which also means he can commit to threatening to do just that in the belief that it will force a trade. Or he can sign his tag and pocket $7.8M and hope he doesn't tear an ACL in week 2, in which case he won't have to worry about a tag and trade in 2008. He'll be on the Ty Law hire a gimp tour. Remember, ballhawks are gamblers by nature. They trust their own instincts. Asante believes he is a star now and his will shine regardless of what one FO says. He believes a Clements like deal is his for the taking if he can just get out of his present situation here. The holdout is his best bet.

    That said, I don't think BB will allow it to drag out any more than he did the Branch ordeal. Maybe even less. I know disgruntled fans tend to want to see him show the player whose boss, but at the end of the day he wants to win this season. His best bets are either compromising to get the player on the field in week 1, or getting him gone off the NEP radar before the bell rings on the 2007 season. That was his approach in 2006, only they likely let it go a little too long to have a shot at either salvaging the player or rebuilding the unit before the season. This year they are a little better prepared to deal with this players on field loss if need be and likely more realistic about his off field resolve. They are obviously willing to overpay him for 1 year or they wouldn't have tagged him or they'd have traded him in April. They won't overpay him long term so a deal is unlikely unless he suddenly revalues himself. That leaves play for a no re-tag accommodation or let's get to work on getting you gone in the best available deal that works for both of us. There is always the possability that as was the case with Edgerrin James in 2005, no reasonable deal for both is forthcoming, in which case the player sucked it up and reported. And Drew Rosenhaus was his agent... But it's more likely with all the excess cap still floating around it ends about like Deion Branch's time here.

    Players understand and even respect their committment to financial discipline. What they won't respect or tolerate is if this FO starts hanging players up to make examples of them. That's actually the kind of hard headed hardball that turns players and FA against an organization as opposed to willing to meet them half way.

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