PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Product of the system?


Status
Not open for further replies.
1) Brady doesn't need STATS to prove he's a great QB.
2) While Brady doesn't have a LEAGUE MVP (a popularity contest like the Pro-Bowl), he has 2 SB MVPS. I believe THAT puts him in select company. I believe that only Montana and Elway in the group you mentioned have more than 1 SB MVP.

3) Your own stipulation for not being "a system QB" is exactly what makes him just as good as the other guys. Manning has had the same O-line (with only 2 changes to my knowledge) protecting him for 9 years. His primary receiver has been the same for that length of time also. He's had the same top 2 receivers for 6 years (this being the 7th).

4) Its amazing. I talked about continuity last year and how it takes receivers a while to get used to a QB and how he throws the ball and was ridiculed. Yet, the other side of that coin is the longevity that people have mentioned.
the funny thing is, outside of qb rating, brady always puts up very good stats

they aren't peyton manning stats but the guy is just a winner, even vs good teams, and he's got more clutch in him than peyton has ever exhibited
 
I am a little worn out reading this, and trying to determine exactly how sports fans are supposed to break through the circularity of the argument.

We posit hypotheticals: What if Peyton were playing with Caldwell and Gaffney instead of Harrison and Wayne? What if Miami's defense in Marino's day were the equivalent of NE's today? What if the talent had pooled in the AFC when Marino was throwing? What if Elway had been teamed with Terrel Davis earlier?

Every quarterback works in the system he is in.

Every quarterback is, by definition, a product of the system.

A Colts fan can say "What if 24-28 TD a year Tom Brady had been playing with Wayne and Harrison -- he would have made them worse," when in fact the Colts were built on Dallas-style "triplets," then complemented with Wayne and good tight end play. The Pats were built on another "system," a spread-the-ball-around system usually referred to as a "spread attack."

Or "what if" there were a deep threat in NE for 10 years running -- would there even be a "spread attack" when you have so much better odds of getting the ball downfield? BB is no dummy about using the talent at his disposal.

Ultimately, the system very quickly achieves a complexity of mutually inter-influencing variables that just can not be broken down by "look what happens to Brady when he has third string receivers..." or "look at how many touchdowns Peyton/Marino could heave in a season..." The stats tell us how each individual performed in given settings: Peyton and Marino in settings in which they often played from behind, in systems that emphasized the "unstoppable force" object of winning. Brady played in a system emphasizing control on both sides of the ball. You don't run time off the clock by heaving a 60-yard TD strike. The counter argument is, you don't have to; they're already 6 more behind.

But would those styles of play been different, if you swapped cog A for cog B? WE DO NOT KNOW, nor can we.

Maybe the makers of Madden can get together with Pujo's A-list of quantum physicists, and we can play an alternate-universe woulda coulda shoulda bowl to finally get Marino his ring.

But it's not our reality.

Our reality is that Tom Brady has won three super bowls. Let's be fair: the NE Patriots, in a span of 4 years, won three super bowls. Maybe on a Belichik team, with the stellar and variable talents of let's say Antowain Smith and Corey Dillon, David Givens and Deion Branch, Ty Law, Ted Washington, Richard Seymour, Lawyer Milloy... you get the picture, three "right systems" -- maybe with that set-up "you could say" Marino would win the big one.

But Dan Marino never did it, in reality.

Marino failed, ultimately. A great talent, who ultimately could not win the big one.

Good for Elway, sticking in the game until people couldn't say that anymore. Good for Brady, sticking around until he got the toys he has always longed for (as has Belichick, to hear how he talked about Moss previously.) Good for the whole vertical organization, for keeping BB, Pioli, Brady, and some core players under one roof for long enough to make that first four-year run, as well as the one that's coming.

Yeah, I call what's happened here a system, a winning system. A synergistic integration of various parts working together to produce an intended effect. This does not prove that any part of the system can be replaced with no consequences; it is telling that BB chose Brady over Bledsoe, when the latter became available again. Drew was not a winner at the level Tom is, precisely because he had more of the "gunslinger" mindset, whether or not it was warranted.

All Tom does is win Super Bowls. Nah, he isn't anything special.

It's just tedious. You can not compare an interesting statistical oddity like a Marino to the greats like Brady and Montana. Otherwise I can just measure the arc and velocity of a football thrown, decide what the ultimate perfect release point is, computer-model the mechanics, and extrapolate from an individual's deviation from that model, and declare Jeff George the best quarterback ever to play the game.

48 touchdowns in a losing season is still failure -- It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that bling.

PFnV
the difference between marino and elway was, marino never really got that terrel davis that elway was given

and that ultimately is the fault of miami's system of the time, and their drafting

they had a couple good rbs, but nothing that came close to terrel davis that elway was handed
 
terrell davis>antowain smith Brady won 2 Superbowls without a decent rb. Do you think antowain smith would have pushed Marino over the top? Ninja please
 
Irony, Kris. Look into it :rocker:

Point is still, Tom Brady is a winner. Period. Marino is not. Period. If the difference between Marino and Elway is Terrrel Davis, can we conclude that the difference between Marino/Elway and Brady, is that Brady can do it with Antowain Smith at RB?

Probably not. That's the point. The entirety of the system, coaching included, needs to be looked at as a system.

Or, in sports terms, a Team.

The Dolphins during Marino's tenure were a LOSING team.

The Pats over the last two seasons have been as well. A decent losing team, but a non-super-bowl-winner.

Winning the super bowl is the goal. Brady, Bradshaw, Marino and Elway could do it multiple times.

Marino never could. Never.

PFnV
 
Irony, Kris. Look into it :rocker:

Point is still, Tom Brady is a winner. Period. Marino is not. Period. If the difference between Marino and Elway is Terrrel Davis, can we conclude that the difference between Marino/Elway and Brady, is that Brady can do it with Antowain Smith at RB?

Probably not. That's the point. The entirety of the system, coaching included, needs to be looked at as a system.

Or, in sports terms, a Team.

The Dolphins during Marino's tenure were a LOSING team.

The Pats over the last two seasons have been as well. A decent losing team, but a non-super-bowl-winner.

Winning the super bowl is the goal. Brady, Bradshaw, Marino and Elway could do it multiple times.

Marino never could. Never.

PFnV
i believe marino could have with td, yes

and i believe brady doesn't need an above average rb to win it all, yes

so yes i believe brady is better than marino and elway

if i was to rank them all i'd still have it montana , brady , elway

also in elway's case you have to keep in mind he was a 3 time superbowl loser as well

so with him it was all about getting the stud rb

marino lost 1 sb, never got to another, but i'd still say he was better than stan humphries

and peyton as great as he's been, had a mediocre playoff run by his regular season standards

it was all about the support he got during his mediocre run


it's alot like how vince young will get credit for the win over the jags last season, when the titans scored all 24 points off defense and special teams
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.


TRANSCRIPT: Patriots Receiver Ja’Lynn Polk’s Conference Call
Patriots Grab Their First WR of the 2024 Draft, Snag Washington’s Polk
2024 Patriots Draft Picks – FULL LIST
MORSE: Patriots QB Drake Maye Analysis and What to Expect in Round 2 and 3
Five Patriots/NFL Thoughts Following Night One of the 2024 NFL Draft
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/26: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Patriots QB Drake Maye Conference Call
Patriots Now Have to Get to Work After Taking Maye
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf and Jerod Mayo After Patriots Take Drake Maye
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/25: News and Notes
Back
Top