Pete Carroll-what went wrong?

[p8ryts]

In my opinion, though Parcells was a jerk in the way he went about it, he was right to leave. Although Poodle Pete was kind of silly for the NFL, his biggest problem was the guy that drovr Parcells away, Bobby Grier.

He was a total incompetent as GM, and also undermined the coach, talking to the players behind his back. Pete had no authority (because Grier was Kraft's guy) and the worst bunch of draft picks I've ever seen, courtesy of Bobby G.

I liked Petey, he wasn't incompetent. Grier was the problem, giving him guys that were numbers guys not football players.

 

[RayClay]

Seriously, Ray, you are missing the fundamental fact in all of this. Before Kraft gave Grier the keys over Parcells in that draft, Parcells had already contacted the Jets (the summer before). In fact, Parcells' second-to-last year, he had Kraft change his contract so that he could be a free agent on the market. Kraft complied, but he included the now infamous clause that said Parcells could not coach another team unless he had a buyout. Why did Parcells have his contract changed? Because he already had contact with the Jets.

Kraft realized that, and when he later asked Parcells to extend the contract to keep him on in New England in total control, Parcells said no. How/Why could you expect Kraft to allow a guy to buy the groceries when he's clearly on the way out the door? When he's clearly double-dealing? Parcells had total control until that moment when Grier was made the personel guy. Before that, Parcells was in control.

I appreciate that, but I think you need to read what I wrote. Parcells was in charge before and when Kraft came in. Kraft gradually undermined him (which is his right, he's the owner). Parcells was already looking to get out before the time you mentioned. The Glenn trade incident was just the straw that broke the Camel's back.

Grier just happened to be the guy, it could have been someone else. Kraft didn't want Parcells in control, Parcells demanded it (he turned down an offer to return to the Giants with a great GM because he wanted control).

Basically, Parcells knew he was gone the first week he talked to Kraft, I bet. He had authority to buy the groceries and wasn't going to stay otherwise.

What you say is true, but it's after the fact.

But what did concern Parcells was that he would be part of a management team, which he never was with the Giants, where Young ultimately makes the key personnel decisions. With the Patriots, Parcells reports only to the owner.

Parcells will share the decision-making on the draft and player selection with Patrick Forte , a former player agent and now the executive vice president for football operations.

Orthwein promised Parcells that he would be able to tell Forte what he wants and that Hausmann would then attempt to sign the players.

Parcells, saying that he was now part of a management team but stressing that "this wasn't about power," nevertheless made a telling point when asked about picking players:

"I think I have the most experience at this table in picking talent."

Orthwein said: "As far as who's going to pick whom, we haven't gone to the expense of picking Bill Parcells not to use his expertise."

PRO FOOTBALL; If Some Ignore Parcells, The Patriots Surely Don't - New York Times

 

[Willie55]

I appreciate that, but I think you need to read what I wrote. Parcells was in charge before and when Kraft came in. Kraft gradually undermined him (which is his right, he's the owner). Parcells was already looking to get out before the time you mentioned. The Glenn trade incident was just the straw that broke the Camel's back.

Grier just happened to be the guy, it could have been someone else. Kraft didn't want Parcells in control, Parcells demanded it (he turned down an offer to return to the Giants with a great GM because he wanted control).

Basically, Parcells knew he was gone the first week he talked to Kraft, I bet. He had authority to buy the groceries and wasn't going to stay otherwise.

What you say is true, but it's after the fact.

I remember reading (although I can't remember where) Will McDonough of the Boston Globe, who was friends with Tuna, had a nutty at Bob Kraft because he had chosen to take Glenn instead of Brackens.

 

[jmt57]

Just as an FYI, Grier ran the 1996 draft, because Parcells stormed out and didn't return after Kraft went with the Glenn pick over Brackens.

You have to put the 1996 draft on Grier's side of the ledger.

You're right, good catch. I was thinking of when he was promoted; Terry Glenn's name should have been a big hint for me.

 

[RayClay]

I remember reading (although I can't remember where) Will McDonough of the Boston Globe, who was friends with Tuna, had a nutty at Bob Kraft because he had chosen to take Glenn instead of Brackens.

Well, McDonough and Parcells were buddies. I seriously think the going nuts part might have been more from Parcells getting overruled authority wise, which is much more imortant than any individual pick.

We know they picked Glen. Nobody knows they would have picked Brackens (maybe they got it from McDonough, I don't think any good coach signals their intentions before the draft).

I posted earlier, but wiki even has a page now calling that the richest WR draft. In other words, he could have traded down and picked some defensive player and chosen one of these WRs as a bonus

Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Bobby Engram, Terrell Owens, Muhsin Muhammad, Amani Toomer, and Joe Horn.

It's really all besides the point. Parcells was an A-hole who left the giants on bad terms. He got power to "buy the groceries" and brought the Pats to a Super Bowl. He didn't get along with Kraft, who took his power away. Kraft is the owner-end of story.

It's like a bad marriage. The Jets part, and end of Parcells contract, is the messy divorce, but the marriage had been doomed for a while.

 

[RayClay]

I remember reading (although I can't remember where) Will McDonough of the Boston Globe, who was friends with Tuna, had a nutty at Bob Kraft because he had chosen to take Glenn instead of Brackens.

Funny, I've been reading this for years like its gospel that Parcells wanted to pick Brackens instead of Glenn.

I just looked and Brackens wasn't chosen until the second round? Does anyone seriously think Parcells would have spent the 7th pick in the draft on a second rounder?

More likely he trades it for a low #1 and a 2 and takes a shot at Marvin Harrison or Eric Moulds.

I hadn't followed his career, but I assumed from the tone that Brackens stunk. Hmmm Marvin Harrison and a guy with 55 sacks, or D-I-Diddly.

 

[upstater1]

I appreciate that, but I think you need to read what I wrote. Parcells was in charge before and when Kraft came in. Kraft gradually undermined him (which is his right, he's the owner). Parcells was already looking to get out before the time you mentioned. The Glenn trade incident was just the straw that broke the Camel's back.

Grier just happened to be the guy, it could have been someone else. Kraft didn't want Parcells in control, Parcells demanded it (he turned down an offer to return to the Giants with a great GM because he wanted control).

Basically, Parcells knew he was gone the first week he talked to Kraft, I bet. He had authority to buy the groceries and wasn't going to stay otherwise.

What you say is true, but it's after the fact.








PRO FOOTBALL; If Some Ignore Parcells, The Patriots Surely Don't - New York Times

I see what you're saying. You're saying their relationship was funky from the get-go.

I was putting emphasis on the fact that Parcells had personnel control until the Glenn incident, and obviously that's why he went ballistic.

I also remember a curious incident in which Parcells selected Jon Burch in the second round and gave him a nice bonus. When Burch was cut, Parcells told the media that he went to Kraft and apologized. I just thought that was weird.

Anyway, you're saying Kraft slowly undermined Parcells. I was saying that Kraft did the right thing in pulling personnel decisions from Parcells during the 1996 draft because Parcells was already conniving his way out of New England. These two points do not seem to conflict.

 

[upstater1]

Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Bobby Engram, Terrell Owens, Muhsin Muhammad, Amani Toomer, and Joe Horn.

Obviously, the best WR draft ever. Having watched Glenn play a lot in college, I thought he was a great pick. Until I saw Calvin Johnson play a couple years ago, Glenn was the best WR I'd ever seen in college, and he was ticketed to a fantastic career in the pros. If that team had stayed together with Parcells at the helm, I bet you we'd be thinking of Glenn in the same way we think of some of the other great names on your list. Coming out of college, marvin Harrison was the only other player on that list that really impressed me. Not Toomer who I saw a lot of, not Kennison who I watched a bit of, and I'm a big PSU fan and saw a lot of Bobby Engram, but he wasn't in Glenn's league. I had never seen Owens, Moulds or Horn play though. So, coming into that draft, Glenn was the #1 with Marvin Harrison a
close #2.

 

[MetalBleachers]

Soft, players coach after a hard-nosed, disciplined coach. Doesn't tend to work. I like Pete Carroll a great deal - if I had a son who could play college football, I would want him to play for a Carroll more than any other coach. As a Patriots fan, though, NO THANKS.

:agree: Exactly.

 

[upstater1]

Funny, I've been reading this for years like its gospel that Parcells wanted to pick Brackens instead of Glenn.

I just looked and Brackens wasn't chosen until the second round? Does anyone seriously think Parcells would have spent the 7th pick in the draft on a second rounder?

More likely he trades it for a low #1 and a 2 and takes a shot at Marvin Harrison or Eric Moulds.

I hadn't followed his career, but I assumed from the tone that Brackens stunk. Hmmm Marvin Harrison and a guy with 55 sacks, or D-I-Diddly.

Well, there's a variety of ways to think about this. The rumors were also there that Parcells wanted either Cedric Jones or Clemons. They both went in the first 15 picks. But by the time McD came out with his story a year and a half later, Cedric Jones was already a bust and Clemons wasn't doing much. Brackens on the other hand was the best DE of the 3, and he went on to a few fine seasons. In hindsight, Brackens was the best DE of the bunch, so maybe that was the spin. Plus Brackens fell in the draft. I also heard that Parcells was looking to move down and draft Kennison AND one of the DEs. Here's the most damaging part of the story for Parcells, and I think NO ONE can deny this. Kraft gave into Parcells and said the Patriots would take Parcells' guy, Cedric Jones, over Grier's guy, Terry Glenn, but when the Giants selected Jones ahead of the Patriots, that's when Kraft made his famous decision to go with Grier's Glenn.

In many ways, we are lucky Parcells did not have a hand in the draft that brought us Bruschi, Glenn, Lawyer Milloy, etc.

 

[MetalBleachers]

Lest we forget Carroll's lack of ability as a game prep coach. In 1999, the Jets lost Testaverde vs. the Pats early in the season. Halfway through, Jets were 2-6, Pats 6-2 (always fast-starters due to talent, despite some tepid-at-best drafts). When the Jets played the Pats a second time, they started Ray Lucas at QB. Against Ernie Zampese's timing offense, Jets' defensive coordinator Bill Belichick had his DBs slam the receivers on the LOS and his LBs blitz Drew "Glacier Feet" Bledsoe up the middle. Bledsoe throws picks, Lucas manages the game, Jets win.

Jets finish season on 6-2 run. Copycat NFL follows that game plan vs. Pats, who go 2-6. Pats finish in 4th place in AFC East, behind the Jets. That's why I figured it was time for PC to leave.

Great college coach. I hope he stays at USC for 25 years. He deserves to be happy, and college players deserve a considerate, hands-on coach.

That's all I got. I think, crappy drafts or no, Pete Carroll could have done a heck of a lot more with that team.

 

[RayClay]

I see what you're saying. You're saying their relationship was funky from the get-go.

I was putting emphasis on the fact that Parcells had personnel control until the Glenn incident, and obviously that's why he went ballistic.

I also remember a curious incident in which Parcells selected Jon Burch in the second round and gave him a nice bonus. When Burch was cut, Parcells told the media that he went to Kraft and apologized. I just thought that was weird.

Anyway, you're saying Kraft slowly undermined Parcells. I was saying that Kraft did the right thing in pulling personnel decisions from Parcells during the 1996 draft because Parcells was already conniving his way out of New England. These two points do not seem to conflict.

No, there's no conflict, just a situation hat was never going to be resolved given their personalities, what Parcells demanded and the fact Kraft didn't like him probably.

It's to Kraft's credit, he did a 180 and gave Belichick total control. Right idea, but Parcells wasn't the right guy for Kraft.

I see what you're saying. You're saying their relationship was funky from the get-go.

Doomed, whatever.

 

[Wotan_the_Wanderer]

As others have detailed, the Bobby Grier era was really unfortunate for the Pats organization and I think even the Krafts to their credit learned a great deal from this fiasco. In all fairness though, Grier in addition to having made some poor personnel decisions, also suffered from terrible luck with Robert Edwards' injury leading the way.

That's not to place the onus of the blame on Grier alone. Pete as well as ownership has to take their share of the blame in all this. Let's not forget, Pete inherited a stout defense with a handful of elite players entering their prime years. In his first year, the defense flourished under his new attacking schemes, but the problem as the painful Pitt loss would eventually prove was that you never got the sense that Pete totally had control over the team nor did you feel the players all bought into the system. It's a bit odd because all the players were basically reguritating Petey-speak and using the same phrases and lingo, but following the loss to Pitt in the playoffs, the defense basically threw the offense under the bus via the press. It's really something you'd never see from a Parcells or a BB coached team under any circumstances.

Lastly, the franchise at the time, Drew Bledsoe, needs to also be mentioned here. While it's true that the decision to force Drew to play Zampese ball was essentially bone-headed, I think Drew's game had already begun to decline when Pete was first hired and most certainly had declined by the time Pete was fired. Opposing DCs aren't all idiots and even if they are, BB pretty much gave them the blueprint on how to defense Drew when BB as HC of the Browns beat the Parcells coached Patriots. Halberstam actually makes note of the fact that when BB was hired to replace Pete, he thought that the game had passed Drew by and it was time for a change.

 

[RDS11]

IMO those who blame the Carroll years on Bobby Grier don’t know anything about coaching in the NFL.

Well then how do you explain how the Pats went from 8-8 in Carroll's last year to 5-11 in Belichick's first ? Carroll is a better coach than Belichick ?

Carroll and no power over personnel, and the Pats roster went from Super Bowl caliber in 1996 to below average in 1999. You can look at the players position by position, the 1999 team was older than the 96 team, with no young talent to build around. All the major stars where the same as 1996. Some average players got cap-heavy contracts that Belichick had to clear up in his first year. It's certainly not Carroll's fault if Grier awarded Rucci and Lane those contracts and then couldn't match the Jets offer to Martin...

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

the 2000 pats were in a lot of games, and could have been 9-7... And that was a not talented team...

tampa, miami games, cleveland, nyj, chicago, were all close games..

The 97-99 pats, were mostly outcoached in every game, Parcells had caroll for lunch...

 

[RDS11]

As Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are...
bottom line is : a 5-11 team is a 5-11 team.

Again, if Grier wasn't the problem, it's not like the talent pool was that dfferent from 1999 to 2000. Carrol went 8-8, Belichick 5-11.

Also, when Carroll took over, he went 10-6 with a team that was 11-5 with Parcells the year before.

I'm not saying Carroll is a great caoch, a coach as good as Parcells or Belichick, but given the same core of players he didn't do much worse. Therefore, he isn't the main reason the team got so bad in 2000.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

I wouldn't count Carroll out of the NFL forever - some people learn from their mistakes, not many but a few really do.

Limited by never having met SoCal Pete, my vibe is that not only did/does he want to be friendly with his players, he also seeks some of the spotlight himself. Remember his kooky "I'm feeling dangerous" remarks? Of course, every single NFL coach wants to be in the spotlight to some degree. Like becoming President, you need to have a pretty big ego to be certain you can run an NFL team. So smiling Pete was hardly unusual in his hubris. What strikes me about him is that he is so natural, so easy about being out front. Carroll just has a gene, apparently free of nearly all pretense, that says, "you're the man." Like Brady, he was born to hold the reins. Unlike Brady, PC lacked the native awareness to realize how his behavior - natural to Pete but a tad condescending to his players - both endeared and insulted the mega-egos residing in an NFL locker room.

Pete's NFL guys liked him but eventually didn't believe or respect, plain and simple. Not very different than the relationship between some kids and parents - and that often leads to trouble.

At USC, Pete can be the Easy Big Cheese and no players call him on it because most all of them are just happy to have been chosen by Pete to play at one of the all-time football factories and by a now very successful coach. Pete's chillin' with the dudes and they say 'so what' if he's getting all the mike time - he is the BEST college coach after all. And instead of being irritated by that (like NFL dudes would be) most of his players are eternally grateful they got close to him.

Most of us have known a guy like Pete: magnetic, intelligent, and fun to be with. If you can just ignore his ego - Pete does, why can't you?

 

[AzPatsFan]

On a coaching level, Pete's teams started fast and faded in the second halves of the season.

I think it was because there simply was not enough talent and they dreamed up a large number of blitzes. They based the Defense in it. And they worked the first or second time they were seen. But by the second half of the season, opposing coaches had film and they were ineffective and anticipated.

Belichick's teams get more complex on both O and D, as newcomers absorb the system, but stay fundamentally sound.

Grier handicapped him with poor drafting.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

Speaking of Carroll's assistants...

Ernie Zampesie was Switzer's OC here in Dallas(was pretty much forced on him by Jerry after Jimmy left). And having lived in New Orleans for many years, I was familiar with Steve Sidwell as Jim Mora Sr's DC.

What were your opinions on Zampesie? Here in Dallas-he ran the vertical passing game, which was quite different from Norv Turner's system. Eventually, even Aikman, Emmitt, and Michael got frustrated with it.(red zone O suffered tremendously)

What were your opinions on Sidwell? He ran a very stout D for the Saints(having the "Dome Patrol" of Pat Swilling/Vaugh Johnson/Sam Milles/Rickey Jackson helped alot too)-their D was overlooked b/c the national sports media et al always focused on their pathetic O that weighed this team down.

 

[upstater1]

Well then how do you explain how the Pats went from 8-8 in Carroll's last year to 5-11 in Belichick's first ? Carroll is a better coach than Belichick ?

Carroll and no power over personnel, and the Pats roster went from Super Bowl caliber in 1996 to below average in 1999. You can look at the players position by position, the 1999 team was older than the 96 team, with no young talent to build around. All the major stars where the same as 1996. Some average players got cap-heavy contracts that Belichick had to clear up in his first year. It's certainly not Carroll's fault if Grier awarded Rucci and Lane those contracts and then couldn't match the Jets offer to Martin...

What he's saying is that the Patriot still had a lot of talent (and they did) but they did not respect their coach. As for Grier, he did very well early on, crappy later. Grier's bad drafts were Belichick's problem, never Carroll's. Look at this list on this thread.

Grier gave Carroll:

3 years of WR Terry Glenn, S Lawyer Milloy, LB Tedy Bruschi, DT Brandon Mitchell

2 years of RB Robert Edwards (well, 1 year before injury), S Tebucky Jones, DE Greg Spires

1 year of C Damien Woody, LB Andy Katzenmoyer, RB Kevin Faulk

When you look at the Rucci and Max Lane contract, they were decently high contracts at the time, but when you look back on them now, those guys were paid $2 or 3 million on average. They didn't exactly break the bank.

As for Curtis Martin, you have to remember the poison pill in the contract. Losing him had absolutely nothing to do with Grier overspending on the cap. There was a poison pill in there that was made illegal after Parcells used it. No longer can you include a proviso that says, "And if the Patriots match this offer, Bob Kraft has to serve me breakfast in bed every morning."