Pete Carroll-what went wrong?

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

Just curious-after a hot start in the '97 season(and then repeating as AFCE Champs despite struggling a bit in the end), how did this team slowly fold over his 3 year tenure?

Did he have a "players coach" mentality style like Wade Phillips? Was his coaching staff subpar? Was there player personnel turnover where certain players that were intigral parts of this team were let go b/c Carroll insisted so, and the team suffered? Did Carroll have a soft approach?

The reason why I'm asking is b/c it seems like when Parcells leaves his teams, they get into shambles for a good few years. For example, after he bolted the Giants unexpectedly, it left them with Ray Handley as their only emergency option, and he lost the Giants locker room almost immediately(tons of in-fighting and finger pointing happened during his 2 years there).

When Parcells left the Jets(and acted like this was his swan song retirement), he left them salary cap-strapped, and then Al Grogh quit after a year when they went from SB contenders in Dec to not making the playoffs, and then Herman Edwards proved how much of a joke he was after a first couple of good seasons. They have yet to recover since.

Of course-you've seen the circus re-emerge at Valley Ranch since Parcells left Dallas unexpectedly.

 

[Lifer]

Just curious-after a hot start in the '97 season(and then repeating as AFCE Champs despite struggling a bit in the end), how did this team slowly fold over his 3 year tenure?

Did he have a "players coach" mentality style like Wade Phillips? Was his coaching staff subpar? Was there player personnel turnover where certain players that were intigral parts of this team were let go b/c Carroll insisted so, and the team suffered? Did Carroll have a soft approach?

The reason why I'm asking is b/c it seems like when Parcells leaves his teams, they get into shambles for a good few years. For example, after he bolted the Giants unexpectedly, it left them with Ray Handley as their only emergency option, and he lost the Giants locker room almost immediately(tons of in-fighting and finger pointing happened during his 2 years there).

When Parcells left the Jets(and acted like this was his swan song retirement), he left them salary cap-strapped, and then Al Grogh quit after a year when they went from SB contenders in Dec to not making the playoffs, and then Herman Edwards proved how much of a joke he was after a first couple of good seasons. They have yet to recover since.

Of course-you've seen the circus re-emerge at Valley Ranch since Parcells left Dallas unexpectedly.

ever take a look at the 3 year record of Bobby Griers drafts? hideous. Only Kevin Faulk and Damien Woody made a significant impact.

the revisionists who are suddenly bashing the drafting jobs done by Belichick and Pioli might want to remember this.

 

[RayClay]

Just curious-after a hot start in the '97 season(and then repeating as AFCE Champs despite struggling a bit in the end), how did this team slowly fold over his 3 year tenure?

Did he have a "players coach" mentality style like Wade Phillips? Was his coaching staff subpar? Was there player personnel turnover where certain players that were intigral parts of this team were let go b/c Carroll insisted so, and the team suffered? Did Carroll have a soft approach?

The reason why I'm asking is b/c it seems like when Parcells leaves his teams, they get into shambles for a good few years. For example, after he bolted the Giants unexpectedly, it left them with Ray Handley as their only emergency option, and he lost the Giants locker room almost immediately(tons of in-fighting and finger pointing happened during his 2 years there).

When Parcells left the Jets(and acted like this was his swan song retirement), he left them salary cap-strapped, and then Al Grogh quit after a year when they went from SB contenders in Dec to not making the playoffs, and then Herman Edwards proved how much of a joke he was after a first couple of good seasons. They have yet to recover since.

Of course-you've seen the circus re-emerge at Valley Ranch since Parcells left Dallas unexpectedly.

In my opinion, though Parcells was a jerk in the way he went about it, he was right to leave. Although Poodle Pete was kind of silly for the NFL, his biggest problem was the guy that drovr Parcells away, Bobby Grier.

He was a total incompetent as GM, and also undermined the coach, talking to the players behind his back. Pete had no authority (because Grier was Kraft's guy) and the worst bunch of draft picks I've ever seen, courtesy of Bobby G.

 

[patsox23]

Soft, players coach after a hard-nosed, disciplined coach. Doesn't tend to work. I like Pete Carroll a great deal - if I had a son who could play college football, I would want him to play for a Carroll more than any other coach. As a Patriots fan, though, NO THANKS.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

In my opinion, though Parcells was a jerk in the way he went about it, he was right to leave. Although Poodle Pete was kind of silly for the NFL, his biggest problem was the guy that drovr Parcells away, Bobby Grier.

He was a total incompetent as GM, and also undermined the coach, talking to the players behind his back. Pete had no authority (because Grier was Kraft's guy) and the worst bunch of draft picks I've ever seen, courtesy of Bobby G.

What a coincidence-here in Dallas, word was that Jerry was getting bored over Tuna's last 2 years here b/c with Parcells' system, it didn't allow him to gush himself into the media spotlight on a bi-daily basis. And not to mention too Parcells thrived with system guys, not star players.

Now that Parcells is gone, Jerry has done everything to undermine Wade...whether it's signing more thugs like Tank/Pacman, allowing the players to have access to HIM, and not the HC, and, of course, you prolly remember the report where it was JERRY who chewed out the team(and not Wade) after the humiliating Rams loss.

Parcells said something like, "Things won't be the same here" after he left.

 

[jmt57]

Grier was VP of Player Personnel from '97-'99; here's the first four rounds of those drafts:
'99: C Damien Woody, LB Andy Katzenmoyer, RB Kevin Faulk, S Tony George, CB J'Juan Cherry
Pats traded away their 1st, 3rd & 6th round draft pick to move up three slots to get Woody.
'98: RB Robert Edwards, S Tebucky Jonrs, WR Tony Simmons, TE Rob Rutledge, FB Chris Floyd, DE Greg Spires, DE Leonta Rheams
Edwards and Floyd were compensation for Curtis Martin; Simmons was compensation for Parcells.
'97: CB Chris Canty, DT Brandon Mitchell, RB Sedrick Shaw, S Chris Carter, G Damon Denson, T Ed Ellis
Shaw and Ellis were compensation for Parcells.

By comparison, here's the first four rounds of the previous three drafts:
'96: WR Terry Glenn, S Lawyer Milloy, LB Tedy Bruschi, OL Heath Irwin, DL Chris Sullivan, FB Kantroy Barber
Pats also traded away a draft pick for T Pat Harlow
'95: CB Ty Law, LB Ted Johnson, RB Curtis Martin, CB Jimmy Hitchcoock; C Dave Wohlabaugh
'94: LB Willie McGinest, WR Kevin Lee, DT Ernie Collier, C Joe Burch, TE John Burke

 

[Willie55]

One of the problems was the players had a back staircase to Grier's office. If Carroll told the players something and didn't like it, they would go to Grier where he would overrule Carroll.

 

[Deus Irae]

Carroll had more than one NFL head coaching opportunity. He's not, or at least he wasn't, really made to be an NFL head coach. His persona is better suited to the college game.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Grier was VP of Player Personnel from '97-'99; here's the first four rounds of those drafts:
'99: C Damien Woody, LB Andy Katzenmoyer, RB Kevin Faulk, S Tony George, CB J'Juan Cherry
'98: RB Robert Edwards, S Tebucky Jonrs, WR Tony Simmons, TE Rob Rutledge, FB Chris Floyd, DE Greg Spires, DE Leonta Rheams
Edwards and Floyd were compensation for Curtis Martin; Simmons was compensation for Parcells.
'97: CB Chris Canty, DT Brandon Mitchell, RB Sedrick Shaw, S Chris Carter, G Damon Denson, T Ed Ellis
Shaw and Ellis were compensation for Parcells.

By comparison, here's the first four rounds of the previous three drafts:
'96: WR Terry Glenn, S Lawyer Milloy, LB Tedy Bruschi, OL Heath Irwin, DL Chris Sullivan, FB Kantroy Barber
'95: CB Ty Law, LB Ted Johnson, RB Curtis Martin, CB Jimmy Hitchcoock; C Dave Wohlabaugh
'94: LB Willie McGinest, WR Kevin Lee, DT Ernie Collier, C Joe Burch, TE John Burke

Wow. Res ipsa loquitur.

 

[Willie55]

Ah Chris Canty - makes one tackle and forces a fumble, but low and behold, he didn't realize there was a fumble because he was busy dancy, ala Ellis Hobbs.

 

[Frezo]

What's the deal with Romo? Are there any disgruntled Romo fans?

 

[Wretch]

Grier was VP of Player Personnel from '97-'99; here's the first four rounds of those drafts:
'99: C Damien Woody, LB Andy Katzenmoyer, RB Kevin Faulk, S Tony George, CB J'Juan Cherry
'98: RB Robert Edwards, S Tebucky Jonrs, WR Tony Simmons, TE Rob Rutledge, FB Chris Floyd, DE Greg Spires, DE Leonta Rheams
Edwards and Floyd were compensation for Curtis Martin; Simmons was compensation for Parcells.
'97: CB Chris Canty, DT Brandon Mitchell, RB Sedrick Shaw, S Chris Carter, G Damon Denson, T Ed Ellis
Shaw and Ellis were compensation for Parcells.

By comparison, here's the first four rounds of the previous three drafts:
'96: WR Terry Glenn, S Lawyer Milloy, LB Tedy Bruschi, OL Heath Irwin, DL Chris Sullivan, FB Kantroy Barber
'95: CB Ty Law, LB Ted Johnson, RB Curtis Martin, CB Jimmy Hitchcoock; C Dave Wohlabaugh
'94: LB Willie McGinest, WR Kevin Lee, DT Ernie Collier, C Joe Burch, TE John Burke

Grier was horrible, and had Kraft's ear. Thankfully Kraft learned his lessons after Parcells and Carroll and allowed his coaches to be coaches.

I always thought Carroll was a victim of poor personnel decisions and never got a fair shot. He's a good, not great, pro coach and won when he had talent, but as the talent eroded he struggled.

Obviously the Pats are better off with BB than Carroll and USC is better off also. So in the end things ended well for all parties.

I still root for Carroll at USC.

 

[Gwedd]

Man, I often think of what might have been for Robert Edwards. That kid was a tremendous back, what we needed to help us forget Curtis martin, sort of how Ghost took over when Vinny left for Indy. He had a great heart and drive, and really tried for a comeback, but to no avail.

I also think of Tony Simmons as the 1998 version of Bethel Johnson.

 

[LiveShot]

Pete Carroll is a great recruiter and maybe an average coach. At USC he's 3 deep in every position. The Pats have Matt Cassell who couldn't start one game for USC because of the talent ahead of him. Look at USC's lineup and they could hold their own against Detroit. Pete is a buddie to his players not a leader like Belichek.

 

[wdkantro2]

Soft, players coach after a hard-nosed, disciplined coach. Doesn't tend to work. I like Pete Carroll a great deal - if I had a son who could play college football, I would want him to play for a Carroll more than any other coach. As a Patriots fan, though, NO THANKS.

Disagree. Although they couldn't win the big games, the Cowboys are what, 22-10 under Philips after Parcells left?
Pete Carrol failed in the NFL because he wasn't able to convince kids to come play in NE the way he can convince kids to play in California. Not to mention that at USC, he has so much more talent and such great assistants, all he has to do is be a cheerleader...which he does quite well.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

Grier was VP of Player Personnel from '97-'99; here's the first four rounds of those drafts:
'99: C Damien Woody, LB Andy Katzenmoyer, RB Kevin Faulk, S Tony George, CB J'Juan Cherry
Pats traded away their 1st, 3rd & 6th round draft pick to move up three slots to get Woody.
'98: RB Robert Edwards, S Tebucky Jonrs, WR Tony Simmons, TE Rob Rutledge, FB Chris Floyd, DE Greg Spires, DE Leonta Rheams
Edwards and Floyd were compensation for Curtis Martin; Simmons was compensation for Parcells.
'97: CB Chris Canty, DT Brandon Mitchell, RB Sedrick Shaw, S Chris Carter, G Damon Denson, T Ed Ellis
Shaw and Ellis were compensation for Parcells.

By comparison, here's the first four rounds of the previous three drafts:
'96: WR Terry Glenn, S Lawyer Milloy, LB Tedy Bruschi, OL Heath Irwin, DL Chris Sullivan, FB Kantroy Barber
Pats also traded away a draft pick for T Pat Harlow
'95: CB Ty Law, LB Ted Johnson, RB Curtis Martin, CB Jimmy Hitchcoock; C Dave Wohlabaugh
'94: LB Willie McGinest, WR Kevin Lee, DT Ernie Collier, C Joe Burch, TE John Burke

i thought in '91 we traded the #1 to dallas (russ maryland) for #11 (harlow) and #14 (lenny russell) or something like that. then in '95 or '96 harlow went to the raiders. my memory is a little foggy from those years.

 

[Jimke]

Bobby Grier inherited a pretty good team that needed some backup

players. Unfortunately, the players he drafted were simply not of

starting calibre. When the starters started began to leave due to

free agency or retirement, the backups could not do the job.

Grier and the coaching staff did not go on the road and actively scout

players. This was left to the area scouts who forwarded the information

to Grier.

 

[Willie55]

There were also those insane contracts they gave to Max Lane, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, etc....

 

[Joker]

at the time, two of the most preposterous and DAMAGING contracts in Patriot history...the two GUARANTEED nearly 3 million dollar a year contracts to 4 and 6 (old time NEP message board denizens will get the reference), Rucci and Lane...lobbied for by Drewpy post Super Bowl amidst all the glow.

Then Parcells jumps ship midstream and we get "Pete the Cleaner" who had this unbelievably annoying habit of saying "we just gotta clean things up...we're cleaning things up...just gotta clean a few things up"...by mid season of the 2nd year of his contract I was done with him...by the 11th game of that year, against Cleveland, I believe, at home, the Patriots STARTED the 2nd half with THREE consecutive 12 men on the field penalties. THAT is a stat that, IMO, will NEVER be broken.

In 3 seasons, Pete managed to "clean things up" so well, that the Pats went from 10-6 to 5-11. Good riddance...and stay gone. He belongs at USC with its 11 pros backing up 11 pros program.

 

[RayClay]

There were also those insane contracts they gave to Max Lane, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, etc....

People hate to hear it because he's a great owner, but Kraft didn't cover himself in glory back in those days. Favored dumbasses like Grier over football people, played personnel guy (remember the Tebucky stopwatch?) and gave out some exorbitant contracts.

Fortunately, he pursued Belichick. He learned his lessons well, to his credit. I think he just didn't like Parcells, which led to his favoring Grier and most of his bad decisions.

Carroll wasn't a bad choice, but he's a California surfer boy and just looked ridiculous on the east coast. In Boston, pumped and jacked was something Whitey Bulger would do to you.