Pats "TOP" priorty

[Jimke]

:idontgetit:

2008 Draft:

2nd round (Day One): Wheatley
4th round (Day Two): Wilhite

:confused2:

This was a very good start but it would have been even better

if Bowman from Nebraska had dropped to them in the fifth round

as they were hoping. Until the Patriots know for sure that Wheatley

and Wilhite can play, they have to surround them with competition.

The Bryants, O'Neals, and Websters aren't going to provide any

competition and better veteran cornerbacks are out of the Patriot's

salary range.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

This was a very good start but it would have been even better

if Bowman from Nebraska had dropped to them in the fifth round

as they were hoping. Until the Patriots know for sure that Wheatley

and Wilhite can play, they have to surround them with competition.

The Bryants, O'Neals, and Websters aren't going to provide any

competition and better veteran cornerbacks are out of the Patriot's

salary range.

Three long time NFL starters don't do much for the kids? Age and guile can push youth and energy quite well, and teach them a few tricks they wouldn't learn from competing against their mirror images.

With all the hollering for Ty Law this season I don't even begin to understand how people can complain about throw away veterans like those three - BB was just looking for someone to hold down the fort until he could get Wheatley ready, he had to switch to plan B after Wheatley got hurt - Wilhite did quite well against the end of season schlubs and probably would have done just fine in the playoffs. Sucks to be NE fans with their 11-5 team riding the rollercoaster of youth development.

 

[Synovia]

They need a STUD DB, Wheatly and Wilhite might be very good players players, or they might be servicable DB who are out of the league in a few years, but they really didn't leave a lasting impression on the field, although Wilhite played well at the end of the season. The problem is neither one of them looked like #1's.

And Asante barely cracked nickle his rookie year. CB is a tough transition from college to the NFL, and very few of them look good the rookie year, except for those who drop on to teams with great pass rushes

 

[E Belichick Unum]

And Asante barely cracked nickle his rookie year. CB is a tough transition from college to the NFL, and very few of them look good the rookie year, except for those who drop on to teams with great pass rushes

Assante played in all 16 games his rookie year. He had 34 total tackles, one less than he had this year for Phily and had 2 ints. He only started 1 game in his rookie year. He was actually an average DB until 2006, when he had a breakout year with 10 ints and 64 tackles. By contrast, Wheatly played in 6 games, 1 start with 6 tackles and no ints. Wilhite played in all 16 games starting in 4, he had 28 tackles and one interception, pretty comparable to Assante's rookie year, but it took Assante 2 and half years to bloom. If I remember correctly, Assante had a miserable first half of 2006.

 

[DaBruinz]

When I grow up, I want to be just like DaBruinz. If you forgive my ignorance I will forgive your arrogance.

There was no arrogance there. It was a simple statement of fact. You want to be stupid and think otherwise. So be it. You'll end up proving to people that you are ignorant and shouldn't be bothered with. If you want to be intelligent and keep an open mind when other people who have been following the Pats and such and making it a point to try and learn the game talk, well, then you'll probably learn a lot more than you would otherwise.

 

[DaBruinz]

seriously.. How do you get your head thru the doorway

My God.. Any person with a brain can read a book and repeat the message on a forum.. hell I can get my 10 year old nephew to do it.. And atleast he wouldn't be rude about it..

Seriously half you the stuff you write is your point of view and sometimes I disagee with it and sometimes I agree with it.. & when you write it out, its interesting.. UNTIL YOU BASH someone else for a different point of view.. SIR you have no class when you do that.. Just stick with your position and back it up.. No need to belittle someone else for their point of view. Only makes you look smaller..

Class has nothing to do with a damn thing. The people who get "bashed" are the ignorant who spew stupidity and refuse to acknowledge when they miss glaring truths.

There is no ego is speaking the truth. If you can't handle it, that is your problem and not mine.

If you aren't intelligent enough to read books and used them to LEARN and extrapolate from, then the education system clearly failed you and you probably aren't doing much with your life. Seriously. How do you think Belichick learned what he did? He spent STUDY time reading the books and notes his father kept. And Steven Belichick learned by studying. If you are going to damn people for that, then you only prove your own ignorance.

Also, this isn't the Pro-Bowl. Its not a popularity contest. Fragile egos like yourself sit and complain about what other people say because you can't handle the truth. I've been wrong plenty of times and I have the humility to admit it. It took me a while to do it, but I do. The problem here isn't with my ego. It with the egos of people who insist on being ignorant and wearing that ignorance like a badge of honor.

 

[DaBruinz]

The patriots won a superbowl with Earthwind Moreland and Randal Gay IIRC, after Asante got hurt.

Earthwind Moreland didn't play in a SB 38 for the Patriots.

DaBruinz is completely correct here. The CBs aren't the problem, the absolute lack of pressure is. Take a look at Denver... their CBs are both phenominal, and their pass defense sucks. We could have both Asante and Nmandii right now, and we still wouldn't be able to defend the pass, because we can't pressure the QB.

I am not saying that entirely. Every position can be upgraded. Its a matter of whether or not the price to upgrade the position is worth it. You are correct in that the Pressure on the QB needs to be improved. But the answer isn't as simple as others have said. Its not as simple as "Just adding a sack specialist at OLB." The Patriots pressure has to come from all 4 LBer positions. And for that to happen, Bruschi needs to be replaced. He just doesn't have what it takes anymore to fight though and get to the QB. And with Mayo continuing to solidify the WILB position, filling the SILB position with someone who, in a year, can be effective needs to be a priority. Improvements at the OLB positions could be used, though I think the Patriots are happy with the way the younger players are developing.

 

[DaBruinz]

If this team had a defensive backfield and the rest of the team were exactly the same with the same injuries, we would have made the playoffs. I am not sure the same can be said if the DB stayed the same and the OLB's had 5 more sacks, one for each loss. Had Ellis Hobbles not been burnt as often as he was we probably would have won anextra game, and made the playoffs. Had Deltha O'Neil been replaced with Assante or Nmandii we would have made the playoffs.

Yes, it would be nice to have a better pass rush, but it is essential that the defensive backfield get better. If we go into next year with Ellis as our #1, we will not make the playoffs next year either. Ellis is a nice player, but he shouldn't be on the field for every defensive snap. He is a nickle at best.

Sorry, but unless you can see the future, this is false and it shows a clear lack of understanding for the successful defenses that the Patriots have used.

 

[DaBruinz]

I watched every game and I have to say that the D did apply pressure most of the time but it didn't translate into sacks. But the thing is they made the QB move his feet and leave the pocket alot of the time. The DB's mostly got burnt on go patterns down the sideline and the safetys got burnt in the middle of the field. I have to admit that the D got much better when Colvin and Seau came back to the team. Also, I am not sure that they blitzed as much as they did last year.

Just because you watched every game doesn't meant that you understood where the defensive breakdowns were occurring. Belichick has stated that QB Sacks are one of the most over-rated and misunderstood stats in the NFL. The reason being that they don't necessarily kill a drive.. They may look pretty, but they aren't all that effective. What is effective is consistent pressuring of the QB from all 4 LBing positions. The Patriots did not, consistently, apply pressure to the QB. To consistently apply pressure, you have to get to the QB in under 5 seconds... If you can't then the QB will pick you apart. Whether its Chad Pennington, Ryan Fitzpatrick or Tom Brady.

I admit that I don't like Ellis as a #1, but the defense on the whole had problems. There were times early when they couldn't stop the run, and they couldn't stop the TE down the middle the whole year, but when a DB get beat it usually cost us a TD, and Ellis got toasted this year. Deltha was a scrub who was waived by a bad team, and the two rookies played like rookies.

O'neal was waived for salary cap purposes. No, he wasn't the answer, but lets not play it to be more than it was. I think that you'll find you are also incorrect about how often Ellis Hobbs was burned this year.

The season is over and fingers are being pointed all over the board. Mine is being pointed directly at the DB's, others are being pointed at the LB's and DL. 11-5 is a pretty good record, I just hope it isn't the beginning of the end of the run. Mayo is a beast but he is the only really bright spot out of the last draft. We should have at least a 1, 2 twos and 2 threes in this draft. We need to hit on half of those picks to restock, 3/4 to be really lucky. If we only hit on our first and a UFA again this year we are going top be in trouble.

Your talent evaluation leaves a lot to be desired. You also clearly have ignored Bill Belichick when it comes to evaluating how successful a draft was. If you think that Mayo was the only bright spot, well, so be it. But reality is that Wheatley was doing well prior to his injury. Wilhite stepped up and getting spot starting duty at the end of the season. Slater had his rookie mistakes, but shows promise. Then you have the 3 unknowns in Crable, Ruud, and O'Connell. However, I think that the Patriots not signing a veteran back up later in the season was a clear vote for O'Connell.

 

[DaBruinz]

I'm not. I'm saying that having great pass rushing OLBs is absolutely necessary to having a good pass defense in the 3-4. The fact that Harrison and Woodley aren't premium picks is irrelevant. The Ravens and Steelers could afford to use lower picks because they had premium players (A.Thomas, Porter, etc) already, and could afford to give them time to develop. The Patriots can't.

Synovia - This is where we differ. In fact, you are kind of proving one of my points for me. The point that the better OLBs in the 3-4 take a year or more to develop.

Woodley - Didn't take over until his 2nd season.
Adalius Thomas - a 6th round pick, didn't start on a consistent basis until his 3rd season.
Bruschi - Didn't become a full time starter until he'd been in the league a few years.
Vrabel - Took until his 4th season to become a full time starter.. For the Patriots.

The fact is that the team NEEDS to give them time to develop or get a veteran who can step in immediately. Belichick has gone that route with very good success and a few blemishes (Beisel/Brown).

The Patriots are taking a different route with Mayo. They felt that they could start him now and live with the results becaue of the defense around him. If people think that Mayo was perfect and didn't make mistakes, they are blowing smoke. Mayo made plenty of common rookie mistakes. Particularly over-running plays.. Hopefully, he'll get that under control for next season. Because it will be even more important then.

 

[mcsully]

Meriweather wasn't ready with Harrison as coach back there. And BTW, James Sanders is the signal caller back there, not Meriweather.

Actually he said "Merriweather will be the Coach back there anyway".. Meaning in the future.. The kids is dedicated, case in point working on his stone hands during last off-season.

We definitely need to upgrade the Safety Position. Sanders is a solid backup.. If Wilson career didn't go down the toilet, he'd still be here..

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Synovia - This is where we differ. In fact, you are kind of proving one of my points for me. The point that the better OLBs in the 3-4 take a year or more to develop.

Woodley - Didn't take over until his 2nd season.
Adalius Thomas - a 6th round pick, didn't start on a consistent basis until his 3rd season.
Bruschi - Didn't become a full time starter until he'd been in the league a few years.
Vrabel - Took until his 4th season to become a full time starter.. For the Patriots.

The fact is that the team NEEDS to give them time to develop or get a veteran who can step in immediately. Belichick has gone that route with very good success and a few blemishes (Beisel/Brown).

The Patriots are taking a different route with Mayo. They felt that they could start him now and live with the results becaue of the defense around him. If people think that Mayo was perfect and didn't make mistakes, they are blowing smoke. Mayo made plenty of common rookie mistakes. Particularly over-running plays.. Hopefully, he'll get that under control for next season. Because it will be even more important then.

alot of this is situational.........vrabel didn't see the light of day for the steelers because they, as usual, had a logjam of probowl OLB's on the team....he was instantly effective when he came to the pats...I believe that even from college, players can come in and be immediately effective at OLB......the ratio of plays where they rush the passer or go into coverage may be skewed towards the former as a rookie, but like any other position, rookies are not precluded from immediately contributing..........mayo wasn't the only one......guyton was effective, also.......I just think the pats have never drafted someone who is effective at OLB whether it be as a rookie or a 5 year vet (under the BB regime, anyway) given that crable is the highest pick they have ever used for that spot

mayo may have overrun some plays, but he got to them better than anyone at ILB for the pats.......I will gladly accept the mistakes mayo made since the price the pats paid for his mistakes were minimal, but even still........at least he can run with a TE

 

[mcsully]

There was no arrogance there. It was a simple statement of fact. You want to be stupid and think otherwise. QUOTE]

MY GOD.. Your basic reply has arrogance written all over it..

 

[DaBruinz]

There was no arrogance there. It was a simple statement of fact. You want to be stupid and think otherwise.

MY GOD.. Your basic reply has arrogance written all over it..

The ignorant or jealous often mistake confidence for arrogance. I make no claim as to which you are.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

The ignorant or jealous often mistake confidence for arrogance. I make no claim as to which you are.

DB.........time to medicate.......or anesthetize

 

[DaBruinz]

DB.........time to medicate.......or anesthetize

Why would I want to do that to McSully? He's not a dog or anything.. Just misguided.

 

[mcsully]

Why would I want to do that to McSully? He's not a dog or anything.. Just misguided.

Huh.. He said DB.. Not MCS..

But anyway, Pats should bring in Sean Jones and draft heavy on defense with some emphasis on OL

 

[E Belichick Unum]

DaBruinz
Is Sizzlin Burger Time Champion! Gandys Quest Champion!

Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: Pats "TOP" priorty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by E Belichick Unum
I watched every game and I have to say that the D did apply pressure most of the time but it didn't translate into sacks. But the thing is they made the QB move his feet and leave the pocket alot of the time. The DB's mostly got burnt on go patterns down the sideline and the safetys got burnt in the middle of the field. I have to admit that the D got much better when Colvin and Seau came back to the team. Also, I am not sure that they blitzed as much as they did last year.

Just because you watched every game doesn't meant that you understood where the defensive breakdowns were occurring. Belichick has stated that QB Sacks are one of the most over-rated and misunderstood stats in the NFL. The reason being that they don't necessarily kill a drive.. They may look pretty, but they aren't all that effective. What is effective is consistent pressuring of the QB from all 4 LBing positions. The Patriots did not, consistently, apply pressure to the QB. To consistently apply pressure, you have to get to the QB in under 5 seconds... If you can't then the QB will pick you apart. Whether its Chad Pennington, Ryan Fitzpatrick or Tom Brady.

The Patriots didn't apply as much pressure as they did last season, there some games where they were clearly challenged in that area, but the lack of QB pressure wasn't the reason they couldn't stop the TE down the seam, or the reason Ellis couldn't cover anybody. The LB's and safeties just didn't cover the TE well, and it cost us the Jets game. Ellis is just not a starting CB in the NFL. It isn't his fault, he just can't play the position at a high enough level to compete on a regular basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E Belichick Unum
I admit that I don't like Ellis as a #1, but the defense on the whole had problems. There were times early when they couldn't stop the run, and they couldn't stop the TE down the middle the whole year, but when a DB get beat it usually cost us a TD, and Ellis got toasted this year. Deltha was a scrub who was waived by a bad team, and the two rookies played like rookies.

O'neal was waived for salary cap purposes. No, he wasn't the answer, but lets not play it to be more than it was. I think that you'll find you are also incorrect about how often Ellis Hobbs was burned this year.

Unfortunately, I cannot locate DB rankings. On NFL.com he isn't listed in the top 50 fabntacy DB's, but I am not a fantacy guy so those rankings mean nothing to me. All I know is what I see, and I see Ellis get burnt often. He got thrown at as often as the CB on the other side got thrown at, and that is not a good sign.



Quote:
Originally Posted by E Belichick Unum
The season is over and fingers are being pointed all over the board. Mine is being pointed directly at the DB's, others are being pointed at the LB's and DL. 11-5 is a pretty good record, I just hope it isn't the beginning of the end of the run. Mayo is a beast but he is the only really bright spot out of the last draft. We should have at least a 1, 2 twos and 2 threes in this draft. We need to hit on half of those picks to restock, 3/4 to be really lucky. If we only hit on our first and a UFA again this year we are going top be in trouble.

Your talent evaluation leaves a lot to be desired. You also clearly have ignored Bill Belichick when it comes to evaluating how successful a draft was. If you think that Mayo was the only bright spot, well, so be it. But reality is that Wheatley was doing well prior to his injury. Wilhite stepped up and getting spot starting duty at the end of the season. Slater had his rookie mistakes, but shows promise. Then you have the 3 unknowns in Crable, Ruud, and O'Connell. However, I think that the Patriots not signing a veteran back up later in the season was a clear vote for O'Connell.

I never said I was a talent evaluator, however, Wilhite and Wheatly didn't do what Belichick had hoped they would do. Slater was a turnover waiting to happen all season and considering his speed he didn't make a whole lot of positive plays on ST. Gyton had a very good year, but he was an UFA. He is testiment to the scouting department. I thought Crable was going to be the steal of the draft, but he ended up living up to his rep coming out of Michigan, lots of talent, but unmotivated. Rudd, O'Connell who knows what they will do. I repeat what I stated; this is a very good team, except for the defensive backs. Put a decent DB in the starting lineup and move Ellis to the weak side and we are probably in the playoffs. Put two decent CB's in the backfield and use Ellis as a nickle and we are still playing football.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

I think the Pats should trade for a long snapper. It's on if their top needs.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/198929-pats-top-priorty.html

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

alot of this is situational.........vrabel didn't see the light of day for the steelers because they, as usual, had a logjam of probowl OLB's on the team....he was instantly effective when he came to the pats...I believe that even from college, players can come in and be immediately effective at OLB......the ratio of plays where they rush the passer or go into coverage may be skewed towards the former as a rookie, but like any other position, rookies are not precluded from immediately contributing..........mayo wasn't the only one......guyton was effective, also.......I just think the pats have never drafted someone who is effective at OLB whether it be as a rookie or a 5 year vet (under the BB regime, anyway) given that crable is the highest pick they have ever used for that spot

mayo may have overrun some plays, but he got to them better than anyone at ILB for the pats.......I will gladly accept the mistakes mayo made since the price the pats paid for his mistakes were minimal, but even still........at least he can run with a TE

You use the examples of Mayo and Guyton as two rookie LBs who did well - what position(s) did they play in college? In case you don't recall, Mayo was a WLB who was moved to MLB. Guyton was a SLB who was moved to WLB. MLB/WLB are pretty similar positions to NE's ILBs, not a significant transition.

This is the problem with drafting a college player to play 3-4 OLB for NE, it's a projection, usually from DE. In this draft Virginia's Clint Sintim is projected to the late 1st/early 2nd round and played 3-4 OLB for Al Groh. Sounds like a lock, right? I don't know how many times he dropped in coverage? How well he set the edge against the run? I do know he averaged .92 sacks/game, which puts him in the Top 10 for FBS schools. I'd take a chance on him, but he's still a projection if not as great a stretch as a 4-3 DE or a 4-3 OLB.