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Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by DaBruinz, Dec 22, 2008.

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  1. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Ok.. We all know that Belichick and Pioli draft based on perceived value to the Patriots organization. And that perceived value takes into consideration that person's tangible skills, intangibles (like leadership and instinct), and the need to the team. With that being said, here is I see the Pats top priorities based on need only.

    1) Defensive End
    2) Offensive Guard
    3) Nose Tackle
    4) Long Snapper
    5) Safety - SS to Tweener
    6) Pass-Rushing OLB
    7) ILB
    8) Cornerback
    9) Offensive Tackle
    10) Tight End
    11) Center
    12) Running back
    12) Wide Receiver

    Now, I KNOW people are going to go into their tirades because I have pass-rushing OLB as the 6th need on the team. That's how I see it based on the personnel they have going forward and based on how BB likes to bring in players 1 year before they will need them.

    After 2009, the following players are UFA (based on the CBA being redone):
    Seymour, Wilfork, Green, Vrabel, Faulk, Neal, Bruschi, Hobbs, Mankins, Kaczur, Washington, Yates, D. Thomas, Watson, Gostkowski,, LK Smith.

    I expect that Mankins, Gostkowski, and Hobbs to be retained. The others are question marks either because of age/injuries (Neal, Bruschi, Vrabel, Faulk, Seymour), because they are so good that the Pats may not be able to afford them (Wilfork) or because they may not fit into the Pats plans going forward (Washington, Kaczur, Yates, Watson, LK Smith)

    So, I looked at this draft and saw where the strengths were. ILB and OLB have good strengths. NT has potential. DE, not so much. Safety has good mid-round depth, but doesn't have a lot at the top end (unless several juniors declare). OT, OG, and Center are pretty good. WR is weak. RB is strong. TE isn't great.

    So, I can see the Pats adding to most of the positions that I see as "need" positions and addressing them with value players.
  2. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    I pretty much disagree.

    Sure if you address those needs you maintain the status quo as of right now. and the status quo as of right now isn't good enough

    sure we got guys coming back.

    but the two major areas are rushers and cb's(maybe a safety)

    I think it should be time for vrabel or ad to move inside and we need a stud rusher. you can never have enough rushers.
  3. TheKraftyOne

    TheKraftyOne Rookie

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    I assume you're NOT saying the Pats will be drafting those positions in the order you have them listed. If so, what aren't they looking for might be an easier question to answer.
  4. Taxed in Maine

    Taxed in Maine Rookie

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    Just a few thoughts,

    - I would put SS as #1 on the list. They have Brandon and Tank are the only two safeties signed for next year. Sanders is a serviceable player, and may not be returning. I like what I have seen from L. Sanders as a backup FS. I think we need two more safeties this off-season.

    - OG would be #2. A young kid to groom to be Neal's replacement will be available in the 2nd or 3rd round. This is where the extra picks in the first 3 rds are looking real nice. Unger, Luigs, Canfield, or Woods maybe?

    - I don't even know why Long-snapper is even on the list. Paxton is arguably the best LS in the league.

    - OLB just can't be at the top of the list. The LTI is too long, and they already have 5 or 6 signed to the roster for next year. Even if the guy is a 'stud' it is still going to take one if not two seasons before he make a real difference in this defense. If Woods leaves I could maybe see another 3rd or 4th rounder to groom.

    - CB is basically the same. Having just drafted 2, I doubt they go there again this year. Although I would rather see another kid over another failed FA dud like O'neal or Starks.

    - DE is near the top also. As much as I would like to see another true NT to back up Wilfork, this defense seems to survive as long as it is getting good play from the DE position. If Seymour is looking for huge money next year I could see him playing somewhere else.
  5. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    I mention nothing about the draft. As I said, that list is what I see the Pats needs as being.
  6. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Of course you disagree. You refuse to understand how Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli have runs things over the last 8 years. You prove time and again that you don't understand how their defense is run. So, I am not surprised that you disagree in the least bit.

    Unlike YOU, I understand that even the great players sometimes take a bit to develop. Whether its Adalius Thomas, Willie McGinest in the 3-4 or others like Vrabel.

    You want players that just don't fit the Patriots defense. You want a sack specialist. That is something this defense has NEVER had. Sorry. Yet, you believe that is the one of the keys to solving their defensive woes.

    You think that they need more Corners. Good for you. But I don't discount Wilhite and Wheatley. Wilhite has been improving quite a bit over the past couple of weeks and Wheatley, before his injury, was doing well.

    But neither are a priorty over building the lines. You ask Belichick and he'll tell you that games are won and lost on the lines. If they lose Wilfork without having a NT to replace him, they are screwed. Could Wilfork stay? Sure. And that would change the needs.

    So, Biggs, you keep living in the la la land that you inhabit. I continue to live in reality and focus on understanding how the Patriots run their defense and build their teams.
  7. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Taxed - thanks for the feedback. Bear in mind that these are the needs as I see them today. How they address them is another story. Some will be the draft. Others will be via FA. And some could be via trade.

    1) Even though the Patriots only have Meriweather signed beyond this season, I don't feel that SS is a bigger need than the Lines. Yes, it is a need, but the Patriots have always built from the lines up. And, with Wilfork, Seymour, Green and LK Smith all UFA next season along with Mike Wright this season, the Pats need to focus on the D-line some. Otherwise, all the talent in the world behind that line won't matter. As was proven in 2002.

    2) OG - We both agree here

    3) Unless something has changes, Paxton is a UFA at the end of the season. Like you, I agree that Paxton is one of the best. But long-snapper is a need until they either re-sign him or bring in someone else.

    4 & 5 - I believe we are on the same wavelength here.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2008
  8. Taxed in Maine

    Taxed in Maine Rookie

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    I was looking at your list taking in FA and the Draft.

    I agree with the concept of building a team from the inside out, until you get to the point where you inside depth is reasonable and outside is non-existent.

    Then there is the fact that the prototype DE or NT is for this D is very hard to find.
    I see only 4 or 5 DE types in the draft- T. Jackson, Moala, Oghobaase, maybe Hood, and late D. Boldin. The only one in FA that really stands out is Chris Canty.
    Basically the same with NT- Raji, Taylor, Brace and Sammy Hill.

    Throw in the fact that if a 1st rd DL were taken it would be a huge statement towards who would be re-signed between Wilfork and Seymour??

    At SS, Unless the position has already been addressed with a high end FA,
    if Will Moore is on the board I run to the podium. That would be one heck of a young S tandem.
  9. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Interesting list. Mine is very different, but that is b/c I am going to work on the assumption that we can extend some of the important FAs-to be (mainly Wilfork, Mankins and maybe Seymour). That's what makes evaluating DE/DT so tricky, its either a huge need, or not much of a need at all. Which is why I would hope the FA has locked up Wilfork by draft time.

    I disagree that Wilfork has played too well to be retained. He has more value to the 3-4 teams, and surprisingly, many of the 3-4 teams are set with their own NTs comparable to Wilfork. Wilfork loves it here, and he doesn't seem like a guy who is going to try to get every last dollar at the expense of uprooting what he has built here.

    Assuming that, NT drops down the list. DE then is dependent on what happens w Seymour, I doubt we lock him up, even with his great play this season, in this instance, it makes sense for both sides to let it play out.

    On my list, I would move ILB up. Guyton is promising, but if we can get a 3rd guy to go into that mix with him and Mayo, that would be ideal. I would prefer it be a big SILB who can be a run stuffer, likely a college OLB. Or I would just take Spikes who seems like an all around great player, a 3-down guy along with Mayo who could go in every package.

    Personally, I have wide receiver up higher as well, b/c Gaffney can be upgraded, and also long term it is a bit of need now that Chad Jackson failed to develop and there isn't much in the pipeline there. Of course, I'd take back Deion Branch if he's a cap casualty and I'd look at other cheap FA vets as stopgaps. So its not a pressing need in that sense.
  10. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Moala's write-up in NFL Draft Scout doesn't encourage me for 3-4 DE, maybe NT if he puts on some additional ballest.

    I agree with Jackson, Oghobaase (if he comes out), and Hood. Boldin seems worth a late round flyer, hopefully he's just a late bloomer. Clemson's Scott Dorell has prototypical size and will be worth monitoring. I like San Jose State's Jarron Gilbert - I caught portions of a couple of their games and his name kept coming up (think Jarvis Green). Georgia Tech's Darryl Richard is a Draddy Award Finalist, a three year starter, and sounds like a BB kind of kid. Michigan's Will Johnson is another later round consideration.

    Looking deep into the UDFA prospects: Florida Atlantic's Jervonte Jackson has the size and had a string of 40 consecutive starts (his brother is an Iggle). Temple's Terrance Knighton is another to consider. Ra'shon Harris (Oregon) and Nader Abdallah (Ohio State) both have the size and football factory background. Northern Iowa's Everette Pedescleaux will probably be in someone's camp for a look with his size and lower division performance.

    If BB likes where some of the OLB prospects are going, he might also throw us a curve and let Woicik bulk up Vince Redd.

    BradyManny re: Seymour

    I expect Seymour to be extended, especially as 2010 is a non-cap season (if the two sides allow it to get to that). To paraphrase BB, 'good big men are as rare as hen's teeth, collect them whenever possible.' I don't see any Seymour-equivalent talents in the next couple draft classes.
  11. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    I would love it if Seymour & Wilfork get locked up this offseason, pre-draft. It would do a lot to clarify the Pats needs going into draft and put them in a real position of strength. From Seymour's perspective, he might want to hit free agency again, but at his age and with a couple injuries in the past few years, he also may see some value in getting some guaranteed money a year early.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2008
  12. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    I could not agree more. The single most important position in a 3-4 defense is the NT. It took Wilfork a goos year and about 40 pounds before he got off his skates and started sinking his hips properly against those double teams. We currently have no one on the roster that could with stand the punishment at NT for a 16 game season if Wilfork goes down in TC next season.

    Unfortunately the best NT I have seen the colleges produce since Ted Washington came out, Mount Cody of Alabama, is staying in school for his senior year. After his poor performances after he hurt his knee, that is probably a wise move on his part.

    I can't wait to see Cody against Va Tech (I think) in the first game next season.
  13. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Just as an addedum regarding the list of needs. Its how I think the Patriots will weight that part of the equation when they are doing their draft board. And it will change based on free agency and on who they are able to sign to an extension.

    Ochmed, thanks for the info on Cody. There will definitely be some disappointed Pats fans since several of them eyed Cody as a replacement/back-up to Wilfork.
  14. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Now if Cody stays for his senior year, the Pats may be able to parlay a trade to land themselves in the Top 10 again for the 2010 draft...
  15. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    I think I'm being realistic. Sure I'd love to get a demarcus ware or shawn merriman(when he was good) but where they will that just isn't going to happen. so i'm all for developing players but if it means more pierre woods, more tbc, then I'm not for it. they are solid but we need a difference maker.

    now i am willing to admit if they shore up the secondary then maybe the rushers might actually get to the qb, but they had their 2ndary in the superbowl and we didn't get to the qb.

    so if it's in la la la land to want a legit pass rusher then i'm staying here. let's face it, vrabel would be better served to be in the middle.

    but if you're talking about developing players then how did mayo suddenly jump in? ok so you might say he's a top 10 pick. then what about guyton? the guy wasn't drafted. he's underweight. why couldn't they find someone like him 2-3 years ago?

    why didn't they call seau months ago instead of just tossing guyton in? it pretty much goes against what they did the previous 3-4 years.

    so i think the development thing is a but of hogwash.

    why can't they find a pass rusher who could also be used on special teams?
  16. Warren94

    Warren94 Rookie

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    Why are you attacking someone based on his opinion. He can't disagree with you. Grow up.
    • Like Like x 1
  17. billdog3484

    billdog3484 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    DaBruinz...i really think you believe you are apart of a 3 headed monster involving you pioli and bellicheck
  18. billdog3484

    billdog3484 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    so if a DeMarcus Ware type player was available in the draft you dont think we would get him because we havent had a pass rushing stud in the past? are you crazy? we actually picked up adalius and colvin hoping they would be that type of player...so what are you talking aabout?
  19. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This a draft board, so I guess those here think they can find a DeMarcus Ware type player and plug him in as DFY pass-rusher. It is NOT crazy to believe that this is not essential to the patriots SB run.

    The draft is a crapshoot.

    Going into the OFFSEASON (before re-signings, free agency and the draft), my list isn't much different than the others here.
    ==============================

    NUMBER ONE - DEFENSIVE LINE
    How can this not be NUMBER ONE with Seymour, Wilfork, Green, Wright and Smith all completing their current contracts by 2009 at the latest? It is time to offer Wright starter pay as we did to Green.

    NUMBER TWO - OFFENSIVE GUARD
    Is it not a big deal that Mankins, Neal and Hochstein all finish their contracts by year-end 2009? The first order of business is to re-sign Hochstein (our backup LG, RG, C, FB and TE).

    NUMBER THREE - SAFETY
    We usually carry 4-6 safeties. Meriweather is the only safety signed for 2009.

    NUMBER FOUR - DEEP SNAPPER
    Lonnie is a free agent.

    NUMBER FIVE - CORNER
    We start with Hobbs, Wilhite, and Wheatley. We will add our usual three free agent corners before the draft. I would like to re-sign Lew Sanders.

    To me, these are NEEDS. Belichick's philosophy is to have all of these tentatively solved BEFORE the draft (if possible), to allow greater freedom in using picks. He will still go after first year starters in the first round.
    =================================

    Once needs are addressed, one can look to the luxuries, the upgrades.

    NUMBER SIX - WIDE RECEIVER
    We do need a #3 wide receiver, since Gaffney is not signed passed 2008. I see a re-sign of Gaffney or a free agent signing (therefore not a draft need).

    It really shouldn't be terrible to get our production from
    Moss, Welker, Watson, Thomas, Faulk and the other running backs.
    Washington, Aiken, or Price could step up.

    NUMBER SEVEN - TIGHT END
    Belichick's want more production out of this position.

    NUMBER EIGHT - INSIDE LINEBACKER
    I'm fine with Mayo, Guyton and Bruschi.
    We could use one more. He will need to play ST's.

    NUMBER NINE - OUTSIDE LINEBACKER
    I'm fine with Vrabel, Thomas, Crable and Woods (we will tender Woods with a high tender).

    NUMBER TEN - OFFENSIVE TACKLE
    We can always use an upgrade. Personally, I am fine with Light, Kaczur, and LeVoir. We also have O'Callahan and could tender Britt high enough to keep him, if we want.

    ==================================

    LITTLE NEED

    QUARTERBACK - We've drafted our 3rd rounder and could add a veteran to replace Gut.

    RUNNING BACK - Maroney IS coming back.
    Morris, Faulk, Maroney, BJGE (a Jordan re-signing would also be great).
    If we find someone else to upgrade the #4 spot, then that's fine. It
    won't be a draftee.

    KICKER - We have the best in the game (or certainly close).

    PUNTER - The roster requires a punter; not a high focus.


















  20. billdog3484

    billdog3484 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    this message is to mgteich

    you totally misinterpreted what i said, in fact, you responded to my message in all likelihood without even taking 2 seconds to comprehend it.

    DaBruinz made a point that we dont target pass rushers...my point, and i am right (i usually am) is that if there is one available we will take one. especially if a top notch rush guy is available. I am right, you did not read my post. if you did you would understand that i am right....
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