Out On A Limb Regarding Linebackers

[satz]

The big hole is at inside linebacker. I suggested Thomas; most said that didn't make sense.
Without Thomas, these are our ILB's.

Mayo - stud and future all pro
Bruschi - he's starting, but how much can we expect this year
Guyton - pass down specialist and hopefully future stater
Alexander - our ILB special teamer, who should have no reps at linebacker

And with our 34th pick, we picked a safety.

Let me put this way

2 ILB postion

1 - Mayo

2 - Bru [run downs] , chung/tank [TE/Slot/4 WR package] , Guyton [3rd down coverage LB playing over a TE]

what am i missing you think we need another ILB to play the other LB then Mayo.

I can even see chung/tank and guyton inside for receving te packages.

34th PICK - Don`t tell me you did not see team run free in the middle .TE`s cost us games and we draft a pick to give us the range to cover TE and tackle them and you think its bad ? You want a TE faster than all our LB and Bigger than any CB/safety to run free ?

 

[AzPatsFan]

not panicked at all.......just seeing the situation for what it is worth.........at least they could play colvin and mcginest on the outside and vrabel inside, and bruschi returned for the 2nd half of the season

the current LB group doesn't even come close to this........you have 2 spots filled with starter qualityl........I do think that guyton could be the answer for the other inside spot, but it is pointless if the pats have to depend on crable,woods, redd, or TBC from the outset this season

I thoroughly disagree. My criticism is that the depth is questionable, not that we don't have four good starters. Even with Taylor signed, Woods starts and plays the strongside OLB position. He might be replaced on obvious passing downs but that is not clear, at all. Taylor and Thomas rotate at weak OLB, and it would help to keep these older guys fresh. But I am not sure that is appreciably better than Thomas and spelled by TBC.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I thoroughly disagree. My criticism is that the depth is questionable, not that we don't have four good starters. Even with Taylor signed, Woods starts and plays the strongside OLB position. He might be replaced on obvious passing downs but that is not clear, at all. Taylor and Thomas rotate at weak OLB, and it would help to keep these older guys fresh. But I am not sure that is appreciably better than Thomas and spelled by TBC.

we don't have 4 good starters......woods has only proven to be depth and was relatively ineffective as a starter........maybe he will improve......maybe crable will improve.....maybe redd will improve, but at the end of last year, none of them had proven to be any kind of starting quality

 

[mgteich]

Ok, you agree that we needed an inside linebacker at #34 and you think we got him with Chung. You appear to believe that the best use of a linebacker roster spot is a safety. That's fine. I disagree. Four safeties is enough. We have Meriweather, Sanders, Chung and Tank Williams, with McGowan as camp compeitition (perhaps to replace Tank Williams).

Also, Chung might have lasted until the 40's or we could have drafted Will Moore. We also have McGowan competing for Tank's roster spot. As you point out, Tank has that role. Why did we need to use our 34th pick for someone to compete with Tank for this limited role?

Who do you think will start the game at ILB if Mayo is out for a game or two?
Who do you think will start the game at ILB when Bruschi is out?
================================

Let me put this way

2 ILB postion

1 - Mayo

2 - Bru [run downs] , chung/tank [TE/Slot/4 WR package] , Guyton [3rd down coverage LB playing over a TE]

what am i missing you think we need another ILB to play the other LB then Mayo.

I can even see chung/tank and guyton inside for receving te packages.

34th PICK - Don`t tell me you did not see team run free in the middle .TE`s cost us games and we draft a pick to give us the range to cover TE and tackle them and you think its bad ? You want a TE faster than all our LB and Bigger than any CB/safety to run free ?

 

[Deus Irae]

we don't have 4 good starters......woods has only proven to be depth and was relatively ineffective as a starter........maybe he will improve......maybe crable will improve.....maybe redd will improve, but at the end of last year, none of them had proven to be any kind of starting quality

You've made that claim repeatedly. Others have disagreed repeatedly. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

 

[Rob0729]

The big hole is at inside linebacker. I suggested Thomas; most said that didn't make sense.
Without Thomas, these are our ILB's.

Mayo - stud and future all pro
Bruschi - he's starting, but how much can we expect this year
Guyton - pass down specialist and hopefully future stater
Alexander - our ILB special teamer, who should have no reps at linebacker

And with our 34th pick, we picked a safety.

With Thomas inside, the Pats starting OLBs would be Woods and TBC. Considering the lack of a pass rush was a big issue last season, how does this make the team better?

Woods only has 3 starts to his career and one career sack.

TBC had one decent year with the Pats and has been disapointing ever since. His career high for sacks is 5.5 in a season.

Crable hasn't played a down of football.

Seriously, how is it better to have two of these guys starting outside, move AD inside where he will be less effective, leave the CBs on an island again? Eventhough a Bruschi/Guyton rotation isn't optimum, it is far better than a Woods and TBC starting OLB tandem.

 

[mayoclinic]

With Thomas inside, the Pats starting OLBs would be Woods and TBC. Considering the lack of a pass rush was a big issue last season, how does this make the team better?

Woods only has 3 starts to his career and one career sack.

TBC had one decent year with the Pats and has been disapointing ever since. His career high for sacks is 5.5 in a season.

Crable hasn't played a down of football.

Seriously, how is it better to have two of these guys starting outside, move AD inside where he will be less effective, leave the CBs on an island again? Eventhough a Bruschi/Guyton rotation isn't optimum, it is far better than a Woods and TBC starting OLB tandem.

Right now we have 2 pro-bowl caliber starters in Mayo and Thomas. The question is whether to use them both at ILB (which would be the best 3-4 ILB combo in the NFL), or use Thomas at OLB. I personally think that Thomas may eventually move inside to SILB, but right now we lack quality starters at OLB if we do that. Options that I see:

1. At least one of Crable, Wood or Redd emerges as a quality starter at OLB.
2. Jason Taylor is signed and starts at OLB.
3. Guyton emerges as a quality starter at SILB.
4. A veteran SILB is signed (Napoleon Harris being the most logical choice right now) or traded for. Karlos Dansby would be the best, but would be costly and it would take a miracle to get him from Arizona.

Any one of these 4 would probably result in an adequate LB corps. Two would essentially fix the problem for 2009. None would leave us thin and in danger.

 

[patsfan-1982]

The big hole is at inside linebacker. I suggested Thomas; most said that didn't make sense.
Without Thomas, these are our ILB's.

Mayo - stud and future all pro
Bruschi - he's starting, but how much can we expect this year
Guyton - pass down specialist and hopefully future stater
Alexander - our ILB special teamer, who should have no reps at linebacker

And with our 34th pick, we picked a safety.

was there any one better then guyton at the 34th pick all the ILB that we could of had are the same size as guyton and slower then him he was one of the fastest LB in the draft last yer and he hes a yer under his belt with the pats the number 2 ILB dose not need to be a 200 tackles guy mayo is that guy guyton will get 70-80 tackles and he plays the pass realy good and thats what you realy need from the #2 ILB

 

[AzPatsFan]

we don't have 4 good starters......woods has only proven to be depth and was relatively ineffective as a starter........maybe he will improve......maybe Crabel will improve.....maybe Redd will improve, but at the end of last year, none of them had proven to be any kind of starting quality

"... we don't have four good starters..." sez YOU.

But that is NOT what the Coaches say; and more significantly, NOT the way BB drafted, and what his draft actions imply

You treat Guyton as is he was a 225 pound Safety playing out of position as a LB. Sort of like the LB/S (Dom Dixon?) that we picked up from the Rams a few years ago. In fact, Gary is bigger and faster than Mayo at 6-3 245 pounds. There is no reason that he can't be a three down ILB. He has the speed and coverage ability already, even you concede. He has the size to be a running down ILB too. The way BB drafted, even more than his words, certainly indicates that he thinks Guyton is more than a S/LB, specialist.

As for OLBs, I beg to differ with you. I reviewed the tapes of Wood's starting games. He is a good starter at Strong OLB, and fully earned his position. Even allowing/forcing Vrabel to move to the weak side OLB, and eventually off the Team. He sets the edge very fine. If they import a fading star OLB, (JT), he will compete with AD for playing time at Weak side OLB; while Woods continues to play Strong side OLB. I am disappointed as many others with McKenzie's IR, but he was drafted to take Tedy's position when Tedy hung them up. I thought it was very possible that Tedy would be forced into retirement this season, if McKenzie came on strong. Instead Tedy will probably play out his last year.

Everyone wanted the big thumper SILB. I didn't. apparently neither did Belichick, except as an afterthought. Well you now have one. Antonio Appleby is a better two-down thumper than Jasper Brinkley, trained as such by Al Groh, and we have him now. With your concerns, we could mini-rotate Guyton and Appleby for running/passing downs, next to Mayo, and still have Tedy in reserve.

In short y'all remind me of the catcalls against Matt Cassel , when the Coaches said he was ready, I agreed, but most fans said: "It can't be, Cassel, (Woods & Guyton) stinks"!

Wrong then. Wrong Now.

 

[mgteich]

If all that matters is size and speed, then Guyton and Redd should probably have been 1st or 2nd rounders.

If your asking whether there was anyone who could compete with Guyton for his starting spot and for reps in 2009 and 2010, I would say yes. Guyton played well, last year. However, it is a bit early to name him a starter and in no need of competition. Besides, what if one of the ILB's is injured. As has been pointed out, we have Chung and Tank Williams. Who kidding who? My position is not that the man who picked at 34 would ahve been an instant starter and Guyton would then be a scrub backup. Rather, I thought that we could use competition for ILB rosters spots, and injury protection as well.

I would have preferred Laurinitis as our #4 linebacker to Tank Williams. I was overruled!

was there any one better then guyton at the 34th pick all the ILB that we could of had are the same size as guyton and slower then him he was one of the fastest LB in the draft last yer and he hes a yer under his belt with the pats the number 2 ILB dose not need to be a 200 tackles guy mayo is that guy guyton will get 70-80 tackles and he plays the pass realy good and thats what you realy need from the #2 ILB

 

[AzPatsFan]

Right now we have 2 pro-bowl caliber starters in Mayo and Thomas. The question is whether to use them both at ILB (which would be the best 3-4 ILB combo in the NFL), or use Thomas at OLB. I personally think that Thomas may eventually move inside to SILB, but right now we lack quality starters at OLB if we do that. Options that I see:

1. At least one of Crable, Wood or Redd emerges as a quality starter at OLB.
2. Jason Taylor is signed and starts at OLB.
3. Guyton emerges as a quality starter at SILB.
4. A veteran SILB is signed (Napoleon Harris being the most logical choice right now) or traded for. Karlos Dansby would be the best, but would be costly and it would take a miracle to get him from Arizona.

Any one of these 4 would probably result in an adequate LB corps. Two would essentially fix the problem for 2009. None would leave us thin and in danger.

Unlike you, I believe that option #1 has already happened. And might be happening for the second time too. It was just cut short by a freak injury after three good starts. Other wise that issue and answer would be clear cut. Pierre Woods has claimed the Strong-side OLB position, and he won't be ceding that to anyone. The aging veteran that he claimed it from was deemed expendable and traded.

AD is the clearcut starter at weak-side OLB, and a pro-bowl player in his prime. He has an adequate proven backup to give him an occasional rest in TBC. AD also has a high draft pick grooming behind him, to push him, and perhaps free him occasionally to line up as an ILB in pass rushing situations to provide an interior blitz.

Mayo has nailed down the WILB starting position backed up by an aging vet, who used to have that position, and can still do it in spurts. He is on his way to greatness.

Gary Guyton came out of nowhere, to claim the SILB position from a former starter Ron Hobson, and take plays from Tedy. He is big, faster than any other LB, is good in pass coverage, and he has all the atrributes to be good against the run. He is backed up by a two down run stuffer, rookie Antonio Appleby, and aging former pro-bowler Tedy B. McKenzie is waiting in the wings in 2010, ready to inherit Tedy's roster position. Option #3 is covered.

An additional opportunity, pure gravy and probably un-neccessary, is JasonTaylor. That issue is still open.

Like Belichick, I hardly think this LB cupboard is bare. This LB corps, building on last year's raw rookie but still Top Ten Defensive crew, is young, big, fast, mean, and now somewhat experienced. Many a team would be delighted to have this LB non "problem".

 

[Dragda]

We already have linebackers.
AD
DROY-Mayo!
Gary Guyton
TBC
Bruschi

Shawn Crable runs a 4.6. He can get in the backfield quickly. In college, Shawn played for Michigan and was 2nd in the nation for tackles for losses. He is also a reknowned hard hitter. We didn't get to see enough last year because of his injury.

Pierre Woods can switch from right to left OLB easily and has time in the system. He could cover some of Vrables position.


Vince Redd was drafted in the 2008 class as the tallest and fastest at his position. In college he had the highest broken up pass statistic. People need to remember this athlete will be ready to compete. He's big and athletic.

I'm anxious to see what we have.

I very much liked what I saw from Redd and Crable in my visits to Patriots Training Camp last year. I didn't notice Guyton at all, but he hung around and contributed.

We all want a disruptive player. I think we'll have to settle for solid.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

I very much liked what I saw from Redd and Crable in my visits to Patriots Training Camp last year. I didn't notice Guyton at all, but he hung around and contributed.

We all want a disruptive player. I think we'll have to settle for solid.

Redd and Crable are disruptive. Crable is was the fastest LB in college getting into the backfield. Check out their bios from college. I think we got value with these dudes.

I haven't seen as much Guyton in college but in the NFL he has shown great potential. He's pretty fast.

 

[AzPatsFan]

If all that matters is size and speed, then Guyton and Redd should probably have been 1st or 2nd rounders.

If your asking whether there was anyone who could compete with Guyton for his starting spot and for reps in 2009 and 2010, I would say yes. Guyton played well, last year. However, it is a bit early to name him a starter and in no need of competition. Besides, what if one of the ILB's is injured. As has been pointed out, we have Chung and Tank Williams. Who kidding who? My position is not that the man who picked at 34 would ahve been an instant starter and Guyton would then be a scrub backup. Rather, I thought that we could use competition for ILB rosters spots, and injury protection as well.

I would have preferred Laurinitis as our #4 linebacker to Tank Williams. I was overruled!

I too wanted Lauranitis, but not because Guyton was not competent. I thought Lauranitis would be another star along side Mayo, and give the Patriots a league leading ILB corps. BB chose to build a fine Safety corps instead. Judging from his drafting, he is confident he has a more than adequate LB corps, and BB chose to keep the merely upper level ILB corps he had constructed.

My dream top five were Lauranitis, Chung, Butler, Brace and Beatty. I was reconciled after they chose Vollmer, that he has a greater upside than Beatty. I expect him to start in 2010 at ROT, sending Kaczur to G, and eventually move to LOT when Light hangs them up.

 

[mayoclinic]

Unlike you, I believe that option #1 has already happened. And might be happening for the second time too. It was just cut short by a freak injury after three good starts. Other wise that issue and answer would be clear cut. Pierre Woods has claimed the Strong-side OLB position, and he won't be ceding that to anyone. The aging veteran that he claimed it from was deemed expendable and traded.

AD is the clearcut starter at weak-side OLB, and a pro-bowl player in his prime. He has an adequate proven backup to give him an occasional rest in TBC. AD also has a high draft pick grooming behind him, to push him, and perhaps free him occasionally to line up as an ILB in pass rushing situations to provide an interior blitz.

Mayo has nailed down the WILB starting position backed up by an aging vet, who used to have that position, and can still do it in spurts. He is on his way to greatness.

Gary Guyton came out of nowhere, to claim the SILB position from a former starter Ron Hobson, and take plays from Tedy. He is big, faster than any other LB, is good in pass coverage, and he has all the atrributes to be good against the run. He is backed up by a two down run stuffer, rookie Antonio Appleby, and aging former pro-bowler Tedy B. McKenzie is waiting in the wings in 2010, ready to inherit Tedy's roster position. Option #3 is covered.

An additional opportunity, pure gravy and probably un-neccessary, is JasonTaylor. That issue is still open.

Like Belichick, I hardly think this LB cupboard is bare. This LB corps, building on last year's raw rookie but still Top Ten Defensive crew, is young, big, fast, mean, and now somewhat experienced. Many a team would be delighted to have this LB non "problem".

I don't think we disagree, or if so, at least not by very much. I said that IF neither Guyton nor one of Crable/Woods/Redd stepps up, or we add someone, that we will be thin. I personally think that Guyton will probably be the starting SILB opposite Mayo. I think that we are thin for depth at ILB with Bruschi and Alexander, though Thomas could move inside in a pinch. I think that unless we sign Jason Taylor (and possibly even if we do) Pierre Woods will be the starting OLB opposite Thomas, and I expect him to produce at least on a similar level to what we got from Vrabel last year. I have always liked Crable and Redd's upside, and hope that both will get significant playing time this year.

I think there is plenty of room to add some depth to the LB corps, but as I said earlier in this thread, I don't think we're in a desperate position by any means.

 

[RayClay]

I think there is plenty of room to add some depth to the LB corps, but as I said earlier in this thread, I don't think we're in a desperate position by any means.

Depth we have. The problem is we're penciling in our depth as starters at inside and outside LB.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, wouldn't the roster look so much better.

OLB starters: Thomas, new starter
OLB backups: Woods, Crable
ILB starters: Mayo, new starter
ILB backups: Guyton, Bruschi
LB/Ster: Banta-Cain or Redd

Even at this late date, this roster would greatly improve if we added an ILB and an OLB, say Napolean Harris and Jason Taylor. I guess adding a linebacker is almost realistic at this point with McKenzie's injury opening up a roster spot.

Depth we have. The problem is we're penciling in our depth as starters at inside and outside LB.

 

[RayClay]

My serious thought, since i know I've beetched endlessly about linebackers for a few years, is we need a top talent at OLB and can work in all our depth players to see if we have permanent replacements.

We need a pass rush and we just don't have a McGinest, Rosie/Vrabel and Bruschi in his prime to fool other teams. We need an OLB that can beat his man one on one once in a while.

Let Crable and Woods fight for OLB minutes, they'll be better for it. Though I argued on a technical point, I agree we can get by with a jag next to Mayo if he's stout and disciplined, so let's work guys in.

I'd rather have problems using too many players in rotation, than starting players by default, like we did with TBC, or waiting for somebody to die before we award playing time.

 

[AzPatsFan]

We have become spoiled by the Belichick approach of getting three players, a couple of draftees and a veteran FA, as potential substitutes for any opening and then just letting competition sort itself out.
People have forgotten how we used to do it, and most teams still try to fill an opening. They have an opening and and a developing player. They plug in the developing player and see what happens, and assume the problem is solved.

OLB is a unique situation on the Patriots Team. Possibly only duplicated at QB. It is a position that needs training and is not something that can be acquired by the typical college player turning pro, no matter how good. It is a multi-year process. That is why, BB has bought experienced players at that position.

By comparison ILB is a much easier transition. As the Patriots ILBs do pretty much what any other college ILBs do. The Patriots wish for bigger, faster ILBs, usually means that strong-side college OLBs are tabbed to move inside. By comparison to the DE to OLB transition, that is a relative piece of cake.

Many here think that the Patriots do not have four good starters at LB. I disagree. AD, 6-2 265# 4.55,a pro-bowler, Mayo, 6-1 2453 4.57, a future pro-bowler, Bruschi, a former pro-bowler, and recently installed starter Pierre Woods, graduated to starter last season are the four starters. Three pro-bowl starters out of four, is hardly an untalented crew.

There are tea leaves to be read here. The former starter, Mike Vrabel was sent to the weakside last year; and traded in the off-season. The Coaches spoke glowingly of Woods performances. Woods was a RFA, but tendered with a very high, second round reserve. While Belichick never degrdes a player in public, the other actions mean more. Both actions are hardly typical for a situation that the Coaches were not sure of what they had at strong-side OLB.

Furthermore, an established backup to AD exists. Belichick brought back TBC who is a confirmed Patriots OLB and proven, fairly good, pass rusher.

A fifth player Gary Guyton 6-3 245# 4.47, challenged Bruschi last season, as a rookie. He may take his job this year or next; and next season Tyrone McKenzie 6-2,245# 4.75, will also challenge at that spot, too. I suspect that ILB is rebuilt, or almost so. We know that a good reserve exists in Guyton, and perhaps a starter as well.

But developing a player at OLB is a multi-year process. The team cannot afford to pay big dollars for several years to train a player and not get any production while doing so. So if the development approach is taken, you must start with several talented candidates, second rounders through UDFAs, and pay them low while they go through the multi-year learning process. You expect to have some fail and hope others make it.

BB has chosen to do so. He loaded up with talented but unready athletic players starting with Pierre Woods and added several over time with the physical and mental qualities he wanted. He has an entire pipeline of such candidates 6-5 250# 4.7 Pierre Woods, 6-5 245# 4.6 Shawn Crabel, 6-6 255# 4.6 Vincent Redd, and 6.5 245# 4.? Anthony Craig. School is full and all have ALREADY undergone 1 to 4 years learning to become Patriot OLBs. Belichick even brought back an earlier graduate 6-2 250# 4.65 TBC.

As far as I can see, he has two graduates ready to play. Pierre Woods who has claimed the striong-side OLB position. And TBC who inherits the prime substitute position at weak-side OLB, behind AD. Developing Vince Redd appears to be aimed at reserve strong-side OLB with his size. Shawn Crabel is the developing weak-side OLB aimed at inheriting AD's starting position eventually. He is the high draft pick talent pass rusher.

The school is trying to develop Redd, Crabel and Craig, hoping to get a reserve and a starter. Next year if anyone fails, I expect BB will add another few candidates as replacements.

In many ways this OLB school reminds me of Dante Scarnecchia's Graduate School for Offensive Linemen, which is also starting up once again, to groom the next generation of Patriots offensive linemen.

 

[RayClay]

Gary Guyton came out of nowhere, to claim the SILB position from a former starter Ron Hobson, and take plays from Tedy.

Is Ron Hobson available? Like most of our wishful thinking list, he wasn't drafted, but at least he has experience.

*Humbly submitted for the real old timers*