Not so "idle thoughts"...

[BradyManny]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

3. I thought Maroney had a pretty good game, even though his raw stats sucked (2.4ypc).

I haven't read further than this b/c I had to respond. It's funny, I hadn't seen Maroney's stats yet (thanks to NFL Network never showing stats during the game, another sign of their weak production...) so I had no idea what his numbers were. I thought he had an AWESOME game. I really did. I now realize he was 19 for 46, but I don't care, I saw what he did with my own two eyes. He had three extremely clutch runs to get into the end zone (one for 2 pt conversion) and anytime there was a hole at all, he hit it hard and turned it into yardage. A handful of rushing players were over before they began.

Again, I think a lot of Maroney rushes that end up in minus or no yardage, it's really hard to fault him for them. When there's a guy in the backfield as soon as you touch the ball, it's not the RB's fault. He did a great job, I really think that was one of the best and biggest games of his young career.

 

[bobmal99]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

Played all his games outside in the elements.
You mean like the 8 games in Miami at 80 degrees.

Also played In San Diego, Dallas, Houston, Indy.

Oh yes they must had had some really terrible weather in those games..

Check out who they played that year.

They played the Jets twice in November and the Eagles
also in November.

So Marino really did not play in any bad weather that year
which would have affected his passing.

Marino did have an amazing year, but if TB played in a dome
he probably would have had 60 TD passes this year.

Check out this site..

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/1984_games.htm

...
Unfortunately it seems that

Think about it. Back then receivers didn't have the technological advantage of tacky gloves. DB's could legally hit them all over the field before the ball thrown. Marino didn't have the receiver corp that the Pats had this year. All his guys were more the Welker/Branch type. No one is going to nominate Duper OR Clayton to the HOF. Marino ALSO played all or all but one game outside in the elements. Its also impressive when you look at Mario's stats. None of his receivers had more than 73 catches. His #3 receiver was Tony Nathan (3rd down back) his TE was the immortal Dan Johnson with 34 catches. The top rusher had 645 yds So, all in all this WASN'T an impressive Dolphin team, so it makes what he accomplished pretty impressive

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

We also lost a half a dozen Moss TD's to OPI calls, at least half of which were of the phantom variety.

Marino has always had a little chip on his shoulder when it comes to historical ranking of QB's and the stats vs. wins argument, but I think he's struggled with it less lately - must be the Nutri System Diet mellowed him out.

Woodson is an old schooler and doess love his Steelers, but he's not irrational about it like Marshall - who borders on Tom Jackson syndrome when it comes to holding a grudge.

I love how nobody is commenting on the Hobbs playing the system assessment. Analyzing player performance when you have no real understanding of what that player was or is being asked to do is just kneejerk. Does Asante have better ball hawking skills? Yeah, now he does. He was always around it but couldn't catch a cold his first 3 seasons. Hobbs is better in man coverage in his first three seasons than Asante ever was. But we tend to play a lot more zone because it allows us to compete with something other than elite shutdown corners. Asante isn't one of those either, despite his picks. He's very good at what he does though, although he didn't have a good night Saturday against the kind of erratic QB he usually feasts on and gave up 2 TD's, including one when he was burned trying to jump a route and guessed wrong, as well as some chunks of yardage. Ellis gave up some chunks of yardage too, but no TD's and he made a crucial pick that was a momentum changer. And while we may have thought Hobbs was a mismatch for Plex, the Giants ended up running him to the left as the night wore on and then he did score.

I'm not anti Asante, either. Just don't think we need a top 5 contract CB playing in this system. That money is better spent on the front 7 on defense to stop the run and pressure QB's, the Oline to upgrade run and pass blocking and keep Brady on pace and upright, a couple of elite WR who can beat coverage, unfortunately maybe yet another TE, and quality depth in the secondary or potentially a veteran SS to replace Rodney after next season if Meriweather or Sanders never quite develop to his level.

 

[dusky]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

I remember the "old" days like 2003 or 2004 when Patriots fans swore that they didn't care about Tom's stats because he "just won". As soon as he started generating stats the tune changed. Perhaps it was a load of new bandwagoners that changed the tune. I know that I have enjoyed the records to some degree, but could have easily lived without them.

I think first and foremost the important thing is that Tom Brady is a winner. That being said it has been very satisfying to watch him put up the numbers this season knowing that it was killing all the Peyton Manning supporters who pointed to Manning's stats in the argument over who was better.

 

[ShrewBeer]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

excellent thread, good insight.


1. marshall is definitely a douche and deserves a punch.

2. brady vs marino. i feel like there is more of an argument there than there is brady vs peyton. no doubt brady is better, but marino, like brady, did a lot with nothing.

3. those 49 yards by maroney were the hardest 49 yards he has ever gotten. agreed completely.

4. kyle is definitely missed out there, and it is not helping that ben is dropping balls this year. it will be nice to get kyle and the o-line back.

5. agreed completely on the corners.

4. i cannot comment on PI, as it just infuriates me. PI has caused too much stress for me, and i will attempt to ignore it until they change it

5.the officiating wasnt bad at all. there will always be bad calls, but as long as both teams get shafted, im fine with that. its not like playing the colts and only one team is getting shafted.

6. yes, hats off to the giants. the pats have been playing the playoffs for the last half of the season. these "crappy" teams have really been bringing it all.

7. as for picking seventh, it would take two late round firsts to trade to seven, so it all kind of worked out. we lost one pick, but the other turned out to be a gift and will make up for it in value.

8.bottom line about the playoffs? they are going to be much harder than the super bowl.

 

[njpatsfan]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

I love how nobody is commenting on the Hobbs playing the system assessment. Analyzing player performance when you have no real understanding of what that player was or is being asked to do is just kneejerk.

Yeah Mo, I noticed that too - and I'm glad you pointed it out. To, me it's just one more indication of how far the knowledgeable football discussion on this board has sunk. If every offensive series isn't in the endzone in 5 plays the OC sucks, and if every defensive series isn't a 3 and out - player X sucks (because eveyone thinks they can be a OC - and noone has a clue what DC's do). In most cases its a poster who's more interested in proving how "smart" they are - with usually the opposite result.

I always enjoy Ken's posts. He spent a lot of time and effort putting them together, and never disappoints. If only others would spend 1/10 the time thinking before responding - or starting another lame thread.

R

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

I'm not anti Asante, either. Just don't think we need a top 5 contract CB playing in this system.

Another aspect of this is that with the Patriots keeping their CBs on a given side, teams are lining up their top receiver against Hobbs, meaning, Hobbs is typically getting some tough matchups. Asante may be our "#1 CB", but as was apparent the other nite, is not necessarily going to be matched up against the #1 wideout of the other team.

Another factor is that teams are in general avoiding Asante anyway, as he's a ball-hawking threat. I do think Hobbs' cushion has appeared to be too big at times, but we've discussed in other threads at length that it is somewhat a function of the zone schemes they employ. It's tough to judge, particularly on TV.

 

[oldskool138]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts"....

I'm not saying that what Brady accomplished wasn't impressive, because when you concider he also did this playing all but one of his games outdoors, and had only 8 picks, which is even more impressive when you concider how often he dropped back to pass this year; it dwarfs what Manning did, but IMHO did doesn't exceed what Marino did in 84. Don't hate me its JMHO.

Isn't Texas Stadium a dome?

 

[FSUPatsFan]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

I remember the "old" days like 2003 or 2004 when Patriots fans swore that they didn't care about Tom's stats because he "just won". As soon as he started generating stats the tune changed. Perhaps it was a load of new bandwagoners that changed the tune. I know that I have enjoyed the records to some degree, but could have easily lived without them.

I don't think its a load of new bandwagoners changing their tune. Pats Fans have known all along who the best QB in the league is. Their argument in support of Brady was that he didn't have the stats, but watch him play. He wins and is clutch. If you watch him play, he can make every throw, he just doesn't have the help. Now that Brady has put up the stats its sort of vindication. It's like saying "EFF YOU! We told you so!"

Also, Pats fans realize what we have in Brady is special and we want nothing but the best for Brady. If it was up to Pats fans Brady would hold the records for Wins, SB Wins, Passing Yards, Touchdowns, QB Rating, MVPs, SB MVPs, Winning percentage, etc.

Its not that we just started suddenly caring about the stats. We first and foremost care about the wins, but at the same time, we want everyone to know who the best qb in the league is and we want there to be no doubt that when Brady retires he is the greatest of all time (like Michael Jordan).

 

[upstater1]

2. I'm a big Marino fan, and I think he was a fantastic all-time great at QB. I've never seen anyone play the position better, and that includes Brady. I do disagree though that he didn't have receiver talent. He did. His receivers were excellent. Like Brady, Marino was incredible in the pocket, very difficult to sack, and he had a laser arm and very very quick release. He could lead a 4th quarter comeback instantly. Easily the most feared QB I've ever watched.

The problem with Marino is that he was not a good leader. Like Manning in the earlier years, he chewed out his teammates, moaned, cried and cussed. You just knew things were going to go wrong when his face turned red. I'd still take him over Manning though, but I think Brady only beats Marino in two categories: leadership and short, swing passes.

As for the record, this is Marino's schedule end of the season in 1984:

Week 11 PHI 23 at MIA 24 Box
Week 12 MIA 28 at SDG 34 OT Box
Week 13 NYJ 17 at MIA 28 Box
Week 14 LAD 45 at MIA 34 Box
Week 15 MIA 35 at IND 17 Box
Week 16 DAL 21 at MIA 28 Box

Not a cold weather game the whole entire season.

1. Tedy Bruschi shoved it in Marshall Faulk's face after the game by referencing the Super Bowl against the Rams.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

1. Tedy Bruschi shoved it in Marshall Faulk's face after the game by referencing the Super Bowl against the Rams.

what did he say?

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

I could see this argument as a general evaluation of the aerial game being favored more according to current rules and emphasis of enforcement. That said, however, I think you need to weigh this with how often officials allowed opposing teams to mug Patriots receivers versus other teams. The Colts receivers have certainly been given much, much more room for fear of getting called for PI. The same has been pretty clearly not true for the Patriots.

All things being equal and removing league bias in attempting to slap the Patriots down to level the playing field, I would argue that Brady would have had 55+ TD passes this year. The nail that sticks out gets hammered.

Just my 2 cents.

EXACTLY.

I am sorry to say that we will never be able to compare what Marino did to what Brady did, because Brady was jobbed constantly. The Dolts game provided the 'blueprint' which the Eagles, Ravens, and other teams followed. Simply cheat and hold the WRs or pass interfere on EVERY SINGLE PLAY.

This had a huge affect on Brady's stats, as well as making several games closer than they should have been.

And we aren't even talking about the bad weather yet...

I think Marino was maybe the best pure passer, certainly much better than Manning, who benefits from every advantage possible, and throws nothing but picks in the playoffs.

I think Brady is simply the best football player.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

what did he say?

Bruschi was extremely polite and did not come close to shoving anything in Faulk's face.

Faulk asked what it was like having an offensive football team after all those years of being a defensive football team. Bruschi made a very respectable reply and said that just trying to squeak out a field goal to win a game like in the Rams superbowl game was what the team was used to, and that they where not really used to the blowout games at all.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

The defense we play is still a bend and don't break.

Not only Hobbs, but Rodney, Merriweather, and the other DBs have been involved in plays where they were standing behind the WR and allowed a reception.

Personally, this frustrates me, but I like aggressive defense. I can't stand the way we play teams like the Eagles, and just let them complete passes.

Ultimately it works, so I am not going to suggest that they change what they do. But it would be nice to see those DBs move forward enough to at least interfere with the clean pass in the middle of the field. You can still stay deeper than the WR but make a play and not just stand and watch the completion happen.

I think we can play this prevent defense like we have for years and years, but perhaps with a little more aggression in breaking up passes in the middle of the field. Right now we are simply waiting to make a tackle, which I find frustrating.

Not that my opinion matters anyway.

I don't hold it against Hobbs that he plays in a certain scheme or that he is on an island with a guy that has 8 inches height advantage. Look at Eugene Wilson trying to cover Plex. That was bad...

 

[patfanken]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

Ken, you've got to be one of the few guys here who could talk about hitting an NFL running back in the mouth and not be laughed at.

As for Maroney's running plays -- he seems to do most of his running these days from the SHOTGUN. Are there any play calls (past whatever quota of draws can be expected to work) that you think would work any better than the straightforward handoffs and delays?

Well, far be it for me to give Josh McDaniel tips, but since you asked....

Since I was a DC before I was a HC, I really appreciate how the potential of the play action pass (PAP) and the problems it causes defenses. I would have more plays with Brady under the center and Moroney behind him in a single back or 2 back set.

From this set, he the defense HAS to respect both the run and pass options. As for actual run plays, I'd like to see more sweeps tried, to take advantage of Moroney's speed, and cut back ability. On the inside, I like the quicker hitting plays at defined holes. This would take advantage of teams that are trying to use gap penetration, or teams playing the 3-4. What I'm looking for here is the 3-6 yd hard run at the bubble. This is what sets up the PAP. As far as getting the most of Moroney's skill, off tackle power plays or sweeps gives him the best chance for breaking off the big plays we all hope Moroney can give us with more consistency.

In the same vein, the power play, can set up a great PAP action, and the sweep sets up the bootleg action. And while Brady isn't much of a run threat, bootleg action is a b!tch for defenses. It slows down the backside DE's rush, and can really reek havoc on a a secondary's coverage.

BTW- I think the switch to the "zone blocking" scheme, in the short run, has hurt the effectiveness of the running game. Perhaps it will prove to be a great thing next year when the OL has had a chance to get used to this new scheme. but for this year, it hasn't been a success as far as the running game goes.

 

[patfanken]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

In this same play, Brady appeared to have been struck in the head by a passing defensive linemen. Would you have called that?

Now you've hit upon one of my biggest pet peeves. I wouldn' have thrown a flag on that hit, since it was clearly incidental and wasn't that hard. The NFL has woossified the game enough. WTF, you can't hit him low, you can't hit his helmet, its ridiculous. Most of these QBs weigh over 225, these aren't little men. They are thowing flags when players merely TOUCH the helmet, like they did last season vs the Colts.

The rule was designed to protect the QB from big hits to the face, not the helmet or helmet to helmet contact. I have no problem when that happens to throw the flag, but they do it for everything that touches the helmet, even glancing blows to he side of the helmet. Defensive rushers come at the QB with their arms up, and occassionally there will be contact to the head, often initiated by the QB. Don't get me started. on this one

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

Yes, I blame the play calling as well for a lot of Maroney's failed run attempts. This is just my observation but the Pats should not calls traps, counters or outside runs for him. He's best when he hits the hole straight and hard. That's what she said (sorry, couldn't resist ).

Actually, Maroney is best running to the left side behind Mankins and Light. He's very good on his outside runs. Though only 25 (13 to the left, 12 to the right) of his 185 attempts took him outside. Maroney had 127 yards on those 25 carries. Good for just over 5 yards per carry.

I don't like them running Maroney out of the shotgun, honestly. He is literally starting from a standstill when he gets the ball from Brady. Where as, if he starts behind Brady, he's got momentum going into the run and can hit the holes that much better.

 

[patfanken]

I thought I'd comment on the Marino comments.

To clarify, IMHO, Marino's accomplishment was more impressive than Brady's, give the rules changes that currently promote the passing game compared to what has in place in 1984. A lot has been made comparing "cold weather" games each might have played, but cold weather (unless its extreme) rarely affects the passing game. IT IS THE WIND, and we know that Brady was severely impacted in 2 games by the wind. I have no idea how many games Marino played in THAT year, where the wind was a factor. You'd have to guess a couple.

I also want to clarify that I do NOT think that Marino was a better QB than Brady. I am strictly talking about comparing that single year in 1984.

It is interesting to note how similar Brady and Marino are in their skill sets. Both had great arms, great vision, and had that inate ability to make the first rusher miss and create time WITHIN the pocket. However what makes Brady the better overall QB IMHO is his leadership ability and his ability to come up big in the biggest games.

Again, let me reiterate that the production Brady made THIS season dwarfs, what Manning did in his 48 TD season because of the fact that Brady played 15 game outside while Manning played 8 or 9 games in domes.

 

[patpatriot]

Marino didn't have the receiver corp that the Pats had this year.

Sorry, this is the one stinker in an otherwise great post. You either did not see or do not remember the "Marks" Brothers. They were every bid the equivalent of Moss/Welker/Stallworth. And as far as the number of catches they had, didn't that occur in the era of the 14 (12?) game schedule?

EDIT

Oy Vey! Here's another one!

"4. Though you could technically call the PI on the Giants against Moss in the end zone. I wouldn't have made the call. Yes there was some contact between the LB and Moss, however not enough to interfere with the catch if the ball had made it through. I have seen a half dozen PI calls made today where either the ball was totally uncatchable or the contact was incidental and DIDN'T interfere with the receiver."

The LB put his hands on the Moss outside the 5-yrad area..ergo PI. That's supposedly what Hobbs did wrong last year. Say what you want but at the the Refs were consistent.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

I don't think its a load of new bandwagoners changing their tune. Pats Fans have known all along who the best QB in the league is. Their argument in support of Brady was that he didn't have the stats, but watch him play. He wins and is clutch. If you watch him play, he can make every throw, he just doesn't have the help. Now that Brady has put up the stats its sort of vindication. It's like saying "EFF YOU! We told you so!"

Well, that kinda's leads me to the next question {which might deserve it's own thread}. I'll admit my lack of knowledge here and am looking for reasoned and knowledgeable answers.

When it comes to the GOAT QB, What are the most influential qualities that would go into designating who would/should be considered?

I guess it depends on who you ask, but the most popular I hear tossed around are Montana, Marino and the occasional Elway (least in the SB era). Some people put Farve and Manning in there, but lets be honest, outside us, Brady is rarely mentioned, or at least only grudgingly so.

Is it stats, wins, TD's, rings, winning %, passing yds, etc? Since Montana is probably top of most experts lists, I have to assume it's the wins, clutch, coolness, rings that obviously weigh him heavier than pure statistical measures of a Marino.

Perhaps I'm a homer, but if Tom were to retire in March (lets assume after his 4th ring for argument sake ), Would there be ANY question that it would be Brady?, Seriously, look at it.

• Just Win Baby - Career wise, through 110 regular season starts, Brady has 86 wins (78%), which is 4.5 % more than the next guy, Roger Staubach and close to 7 points better than Montana (71.3 % - 3rd on the all-time list) - Brady's post season wins stats are even better (12-2)
• Clutch - Brady already has 28 comeback wins when trailing in the 4th. Thats only 3 short of Montana (193 games) and only 19 short Elway's record of 47 (Elway did it in 234 games (to Brady's 124).
• Rings - He (using my argument ) would have his 4th by March. Hell, even at three, he's still among the top of all time.
• Stats - I think it's safe to say that statistically, this is one of the greatest season of any QB, any time, and his stats, while not as gaudy as a Marino of Manning perhaps, are certainly on par with the other greats. Plus the Season TD record is quite a feather in the cap.

What other measurables am I missing? Like I said, not saying his IS the GOAT at this point, buy why (in a serious way), does he not even allowed to be in the conversation already (seems to me anyway) at this stage of his career.

Thanks, the homer in me wants to know.

Apologies to Otto, Starr and all those old timer. It's just unfair to compare them with SB era players (which is hard enough)