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Not so "idle thoughts"...

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Dec 31, 2007.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    ...because the bad news about last night's game is that there is really nothing I'm really looking forward to watching today, and its going to be a long time between Patriot fixes. ;)

    1. If I ever entered a room where Marshall Faulk was in, I don't think I'd be able to leave without punching him in the mouth at least once. I'm sure there's been a thread on his comments in the pregame run up to the game, so I won't have to go into the details of what he said, but suffice it to say that those comments mark him is a classic whiner and crybaby. A hater of massive proportions, who lets his own PERSONAL biases interfere with his job.

    Unfortunately it seems that Marshall is going to spend the rest of his media career attempting to tarnish the previous Pats superbowls, especially the one in 2001. What really pisses me off is that even though Faulk was clearly a great player, he came up very SMALL in both the superbowls he played in, even the one the Rams won. Just like bullies in real life, when they get taken down, they cannot believe it. It must have been some kind of trick

    On the Bright Side, when he made those disparaging comments, Eisen came right out and called him a hater, and the rest of the panel just laughed AT him.

    2. This isn't going to be popular here, but I was thinking about Brady's 50 TDs and I think that given the state of the NFL, and the rules that seem to make it easier to pass these days. (the DE-emphisis on offensive holding calls, the EMPHASIS defensive holding calls, the 5 yd no contact rule, etc) I really think that Marino's 48 TDs back in the 80's was actually more impressive.

    Think about it. Back then receivers didn't have the technological advantage of tacky gloves. DB's could legally hit them all over the field before the ball thrown. Marino didn't have the receiver corp that the Pats had this year. All his guys were more the Welker/Branch type. No one is going to nominate Duper OR Clayton to the HOF. Marino ALSO played all or all but one game outside in the elements. Its also impressive when you look at Mario's stats. None of his receivers had more than 73 catches. His #3 receiver was Tony Nathan (3rd down back) his TE was the immortal Dan Johnson with 34 catches. The top rusher had 645 yds So, all in all this WASN'T an impressive Dolphin team, so it makes what he accomplished pretty impressive

    I'm not saying that what Brady accomplished wasn't impressive, because when you concider he also did this playing all but one of his games outdoors, and had only 8 picks, which is even more impressive when you concider how often he dropped back to pass this year; it dwarfs what Manning did, but IMHO did doesn't exceed what Marino did in 84. Don't hate me its JMHO.

    3. I thought Maroney had a pretty good game, even though his raw stats sucked (2.4ypc). Except for one carry, he hit the hole hard and when there was a crease, he got the maximum that was available. The Problem was. IMHO, several of the running plays the Pats offensive brain trust drew up were too slow in developing and not well designed or executed; leaving Moroney with no place to go. I'd wager that he had around 15 yds in losses because of this. At any ratethose 2 TD runs were impressive. Running it in from more than 3 yds out is very difficult in the NFL. For that reason, I go into the post season optimistic that we can put together a good enough running attack to win, even if the weather restricts the passing game.

    4. Also the running attack misses Kyle Brady very much, much more that the pass blocking side does. Hopefully with another 2 weeks to mend we can look forward to seeing Brady back in time for the Playoffs. Hopefully Neal and Kazcur as well. Having both of those guys on the field (especially Neal) will improve the efficiency and success of the running game.

    5. In this comment I come to praise Ellis Hobbs, not to burry him. I saw something on the NFLN Playbook that rang true to me and might explain the Pats tendency to allow certain passes to be completed. We have all complained about all the 12-17 yd out cuts that seem to always get caught IN FRONT of Hobbs, often for big first downs.

    This can partially be explained as part of the Pats scheme, which puts the Pats in a 3 deep secondary (the trendy term is "single high S"). In this defense one of the weaknesses is in that 12-17 yd area in front of the CB and behind the LB or nickel back. Often its not Hobbs' fault but the design of the defense. The key to the success of that scheme is being able to disguise it and to trap QBs into throwing deep in the middle/seams or to the outside, inother words INTO coverage. However IF the QB recognizes the single high S, that deep out will be open all the time.....BY DESIGN. So the next time you want to kill Hobbs for seemingly playing too loose on some deep out cut, you might want to remember this, and check to see what the defense call was (though unfortunately we rarely get to see an angle that will show this info to a mere TV fan)

    4. Though you could technically call the PI on the Giants against Moss in the end zone. I wouldn't have made the call. Yes there was some contact between the LB and Moss, however not enough to interfere with the catch if the ball had made it through. I have seen a half dozen PI calls made today where either the ball was totally uncatchable or the contact was incidental and DIDN'T interfere with the receiver.

    I really think the NFL had to take hard look at the PI rule and make some adjustments. Not necessarily to the rule itself, but to the emphasis. If a ball isn't catchable there should be NO FLAG. If the contact was incidental and wouldn't have effected the player's ability to catch the ball, THERE SHOULD BE NO FLAG. There is far too much yardage being awarded to the offense for basically badly executed plays

    5. So I guess my observation on the officiating in the Giants game was that while the Pats got hit with 2 clearly ridiculous calls (the celebration call and the Illegal formation call on the GL), one of which really hurt, and the other could also have been very damaging if the Pats hadn't gotten a TD, they got a couple in their favor as well.

    6. You have to take your hat off to the GIANTs, however if history is any indication, it doesn't look good for them in the playoffs. The Eagles, Ravens and Indy ALL lost their next game after giving our Pats a run for their money. So while playing such a great game against the Pats might be great for their confidence, it might no be so great for their physical condition and focus. I haven't looked it up but I would wager that the record of what teams did AFTER playing the Pats isn't too good.

    7. I think the SF pick worked out pretty well. Its unfortunate but picking in the top 3 is just economically not sound regardless of who you pick, and even if the player does fairly well, especially if its a QB. The bottom line is that unless the player becomes an almost immediate all pro/franchise type player, you NEVER get true value for the pick.

    I'm guessing the Pats will be picking #7 and that should get the Pats a premium prospect while having a much better chance of getting true value out of the rookie contract. Even if they miss, it would mean less of a an economic hit. Believe me, the way those top contracts run, it IS NOT going to be easy to trade down for those top 3 teams. I'd be willing to bet that the Pats would get better value trading down from the 7 slot than the Fins will get trading down from the first slot, just because of the economic implications

    This is supposedly a very deep draft, but not heavy at the top. Having multiple picks in the first 3 round will get you several good players. It will realy hurt losing that 32nd pick. Not only would have gotten a good AND economically reasonable player at that spot, it could have been used to trade down into the second round and get an extra first day pick next year.

    While the draft was kind of irrelevant for THIS team, it will be critical IMHO, for the Pats to hit on at least 4 picks in the upcoming draft including one starter.

    8. Here is the bottom line about the playoffs. I'm confident that the Pats can stop the running game or at least keep it under control, with ANY of the teams that may come throught (Colts, Steelers, SD, or JAX). I do think that the Pats CAN be passed on, at least to some degree. However I don't see ANY team coming into Foxboro and OUT passing the Pats, even INDY. Obviously we will discuss this in more depth as each challenge presents itself. It won't be easy, however there is no reason why it SHOULDN'T get done.

    A Happy and Healthy New Year to all, and I hope you don't go nuts next week waiting for a football game to root for.
  2. fnordcircle

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Don't be stupid, his job isn't to be right his job, like everyone who pens a column or smiles into the camera is to entice viewers to watch more. It's a more tame version of what Simmons does in his columns that antagonizes 90% of the country but keeps them reading.

    Every NFL talk show has some guy who is going to say something that bucks conventional wisdom just for the sake of doing so, the fact that people take it personally is silly.
  3. Patjew

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Ken, I wish I could analyze football 10% as well as you can. Great, insightful job as always.
  4. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    I disagree. Faulk is genuinely petty. It's not schtick.
  5. ClevTrev

    ClevTrev Rookie

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    PFK, good post and interesting thoughts. The Faulk comment is right on the mark. I'm constantly amazed every time this guy opens his mouth. While I wouldn't go so far as to wish physical harm against the guy, it's obvious he's still stung from Super Bowl XXXVI. I heard him prior to the game, and it's amazing that they let these ex-jocks go like this. He changed his tune after the game, since he would have confirmed his own idiocy had he kept to his pre-game theme; however, he's certainly never going to be mistaken for a Mensa candidate.

    In addition to his Patriots bigotry, his inability to break down a game and describe in-depth strategy is embarrassing. He's reduced to providing "feel good" human interest stories on NFLN. But unfortunately, he's not the only ex-jock with a monopoly on bad broadcasting.
  6. DaedalusX

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    I could see this argument as a general evaluation of the aerial game being favored more according to current rules and emphasis of enforcement. That said, however, I think you need to weigh this with how often officials allowed opposing teams to mug Patriots receivers versus other teams. The Colts receivers have certainly been given much, much more room for fear of getting called for PI. The same has been pretty clearly not true for the Patriots.

    All things being equal and removing league bias in attempting to slap the Patriots down to level the playing field, I would argue that Brady would have had 55+ TD passes this year. The nail that sticks out gets hammered.

    Just my 2 cents.
  7. Fencer

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Ken, you've got to be one of the few guys here who could talk about hitting an NFL running back in the mouth and not be laughed at.

    As for Maroney's running plays -- he seems to do most of his running these days from the SHOTGUN. Are there any play calls (past whatever quota of draws can be expected to work) that you think would work any better than the straightforward handoffs and delays?
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2007
  8. BadMoFo

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    In this same play, Brady appeared to have been struck in the head by a passing defensive linemen. Would you have called that?
  9. DarrylS

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Insightful post, but have to disagree with this about Marino and Brady. There are those who say that Otto Graham was the greatest qb of all time, but the difficult in comparison is the game has changed so much. If you were to compare Brady to Graham it would be impossible.

    To compare Brady's accomplishments to Marino is difficult also, the game was different 23 years ago.. a record does not say that Brady's achievement is greater than Marino's, it states that in 2007 he surpassed his number of TD's. There will be some who will argue who is better and whose record is better, but I would not go that way as I would not argue who is better the '72 Dolphins or '07 Pats. The game has changed and all of these comparisons are like comparing raisins and grapefruit.

    A better comparison is to do Manning vs. Brady as they face the same issues, outside of this the argument could go on ad infinitum.. take what Brady did as face value and savor it.
  10. Scouse Patriot

    Scouse Patriot Rookie

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    I've been laughing at Faulk for ages. I dont think it's to "make the show more interesting by being an objective idiot" most of the time either. Somethin deep down in that mans soul that kills him inside.
  11. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    You may be right here from a completely objective standpoint, but the guy is such a monumental douchebag, that the homer in me refuses to acknowlege that Marino's 48 > Brady's 50.

    Besides, I really don't care about that record for TB, because honestly, the only thing it does for me is to firmly implant in my mind just how good he is and showcases it to the world. He will, in time, come to be determined to be the GOAT QB. He is so high up there in almost all statistics, but the most important ones: WINS. The more important the game, the better his record.

    Regular season - 86/110 - 78%
    Playoffs - 12/14 - 85.7%
    Super Bowls - 3/3 100%

    Sure, you can make the argument that TB has had better overal talent around him over the years, but there is becoming so much evidence of just how good HE is, that it's only fitting that Tom have that record, over both Manning and Marino.

    That's my opinion.
  12. NEGoldenAge

    NEGoldenAge Banned

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Brady threw in some bad weather this year against some teams playing WAAAAY above themselves. To me, Brady has had the greates season as a QB of all time.
  13. FrontSeven

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    It's difficult, but not impossible, especially for "fun" sake.

    Ken's point about the way DBs were man-handled back then says it all. If there is one difference between now and then it's that. And that is decidedly in favor of Marino and his receivers.

    I think Marino raised the level of his receivers too, but Tom has had one of the best-ever at his disposal.

    In Tom's favor *probably* would be the late season weather in which one or two games were basically taken away from him by the weather (home games that would have been in Miami for Marino.)

    Actually, the above comparison is for fun only. I don't take this stuff very seriously. I do believe that at that level the differences between QBs is slim, if anything.

    The one curious parallel I see between the two QBs is that Tom utilizes the pocket in the same way that Dan did. Neither of them was mobile, but both used the pocket with great skill.
  14. FrontSeven

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Marino a douchebag? Hmm, I've never had a problem with the guy. He seems to have a good QB perspective on the games. He likes Tom, and Tom likes him. He played for the "enemy" but I always had a healthy respect for the guy's ability, and enjoyed watching him beat other teams that I didn't like.

    He is opinionated, but truthfully I don't think you make it in that business otherwise. Bring it, make it interesting, but don't sit there and try to please everybody or you're dead meat.


    I agree. He's one of the best to ever play the game, and 40 would have made the point.

    I remember the "old" days like 2003 or 2004 when Patriots fans swore that they didn't care about Tom's stats because he "just won". As soon as he started generating stats the tune changed. Perhaps it was a load of new bandwagoners that changed the tune. I know that I have enjoyed the records to some degree, but could have easily lived without them.
  15. NYPatsFan

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Yes, I blame the play calling as well for a lot of Maroney's failed run attempts. This is just my observation but the Pats should not calls traps, counters or outside runs for him. He's best when he hits the hole straight and hard. That's what she said (sorry, couldn't resist:p ).
  16. PatsWickedPissah

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Good insight on the Marino comparison including FS's point about their similar pocket sense and mobility. Never 'liked' Marino but I respect what he did and acknowlege that he did not have the girly mon contact rules and did his record with smurfs at WR. I have no problem theorising that Marino's stats were more impressive because pure stats don't mean much to me. That being said, Marino was an all-time QB.

    I noticed that several run plays were bad by design. Knowing the Giants would run blitz their fast LB, Josh still called some slow developing plays where both Maroney AND Faulk were caught from behind by the LB. In addition, a couple draws were so well sniffed out by the Jints or telegraphed by the Pats that Maroney had no chance whatsoever and lost yards. I think Josh will review and correct whatever tendency or blocking scheme went awry here.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2007
  17. JR4

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    I agree with your response. There are a lot of variables in the passing game. To look at just the WRs and QBs involved leaves a lot out.
    To say defenses had the edge back there still leaves out out factors.
    For instance, consider no CAP implications on player retention.
    Consider the quality of teams that marion faced in his record breaking year.
    There is so much ... you really can't do a fair comparison and to diminish
    Brady's accomplishment based on incomplete analysis is not fair. IMO
  18. njpatsfan

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Absolutely. If anything, the argument goes the other way. Salary cap era + playing in New England FAR outweigh the sometimes enforced PI rules. I don't think it is even close.

    R
  19. aluminum seats

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Re Marino vs. Brady, I also don't think you can just say that both played outside "in the elements." Outside in Southern Florida is not the same as outside in the Massachusetts winter. The weather clearly was a factor for at least a couple of ballgames for Brady.......you extrapolate his total up from that, it becomes even more impressive.
  20. Mainefan

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    It is very difficult to compared quarterbacks from various eras, not just because the players were physically quite different, but because the rules were significantly different.

    Otto Graham, for instance, was indeed the greatest quarterback of his time--and I say that as someone who saw him play. But his lifetime completion average was barely over 55%. His highest touchdown total (in the NFL) was 20, and he threw 24 interceptions that year (with a completion rate of 49%). His lifetime passer rating, if you credit that odd statistic, was 86.

    And yet, he was the greatest quarterback of his time and his superiority was acknowledged by all.

    How is it possible to compare him to Tom Brady, 50 years later? It's not, in my opinion.
  21. BradyManny

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    I haven't read further than this b/c I had to respond. It's funny, I hadn't seen Maroney's stats yet (thanks to NFL Network never showing stats during the game, another sign of their weak production...) so I had no idea what his numbers were. I thought he had an AWESOME game. I really did. I now realize he was 19 for 46, but I don't care, I saw what he did with my own two eyes. He had three extremely clutch runs to get into the end zone (one for 2 pt conversion) and anytime there was a hole at all, he hit it hard and turned it into yardage. A handful of rushing players were over before they began.

    Again, I think a lot of Maroney rushes that end up in minus or no yardage, it's really hard to fault him for them. When there's a guy in the backfield as soon as you touch the ball, it's not the RB's fault. He did a great job, I really think that was one of the best and biggest games of his young career.
  22. bobmal99

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Played all his games outside in the elements.
    You mean like the 8 games in Miami at 80 degrees.

    Also played In San Diego, Dallas, Houston, Indy.

    Oh yes they must had had some really terrible weather in those games..

    Check out who they played that year.

    They played the Jets twice in November and the Eagles
    also in November.

    So Marino really did not play in any bad weather that year
    which would have affected his passing.

    Marino did have an amazing year, but if TB played in a dome
    he probably would have had 60 TD passes this year.

    Check out this site..


    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/1984_games.htm

  23. MoLewisrocks

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    We also lost a half a dozen Moss TD's to OPI calls, at least half of which were of the phantom variety.

    Marino has always had a little chip on his shoulder when it comes to historical ranking of QB's and the stats vs. wins argument, but I think he's struggled with it less lately - must be the Nutri System Diet mellowed him out.

    Woodson is an old schooler and doess love his Steelers, but he's not irrational about it like Marshall - who borders on Tom Jackson syndrome when it comes to holding a grudge.

    I love how nobody is commenting on the Hobbs playing the system assessment. Analyzing player performance when you have no real understanding of what that player was or is being asked to do is just kneejerk. Does Asante have better ball hawking skills? Yeah, now he does. He was always around it but couldn't catch a cold his first 3 seasons. Hobbs is better in man coverage in his first three seasons than Asante ever was. But we tend to play a lot more zone because it allows us to compete with something other than elite shutdown corners. Asante isn't one of those either, despite his picks. He's very good at what he does though, although he didn't have a good night Saturday against the kind of erratic QB he usually feasts on and gave up 2 TD's, including one when he was burned trying to jump a route and guessed wrong, as well as some chunks of yardage. Ellis gave up some chunks of yardage too, but no TD's and he made a crucial pick that was a momentum changer. And while we may have thought Hobbs was a mismatch for Plex, the Giants ended up running him to the left as the night wore on and then he did score.

    I'm not anti Asante, either. Just don't think we need a top 5 contract CB playing in this system. That money is better spent on the front 7 on defense to stop the run and pressure QB's, the Oline to upgrade run and pass blocking and keep Brady on pace and upright, a couple of elite WR who can beat coverage, unfortunately maybe yet another TE, and quality depth in the secondary or potentially a veteran SS to replace Rodney after next season if Meriweather or Sanders never quite develop to his level.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2007
  24. dusky

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    I think first and foremost the important thing is that Tom Brady is a winner. That being said it has been very satisfying to watch him put up the numbers this season knowing that it was killing all the Peyton Manning supporters who pointed to Manning's stats in the argument over who was better.
  25. ShrewBeer

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    excellent thread, good insight.


    1. marshall is definitely a douche and deserves a punch.

    2. brady vs marino. i feel like there is more of an argument there than there is brady vs peyton. no doubt brady is better, but marino, like brady, did a lot with nothing.

    3. those 49 yards by maroney were the hardest 49 yards he has ever gotten. agreed completely.

    4. kyle is definitely missed out there, and it is not helping that ben is dropping balls this year. it will be nice to get kyle and the o-line back.

    5. agreed completely on the corners.

    4. i cannot comment on PI, as it just infuriates me. PI has caused too much stress for me, and i will attempt to ignore it until they change it

    5.the officiating wasnt bad at all. there will always be bad calls, but as long as both teams get shafted, im fine with that. its not like playing the colts and only one team is getting shafted.

    6. yes, hats off to the giants. the pats have been playing the playoffs for the last half of the season. these "crappy" teams have really been bringing it all.

    7. as for picking seventh, it would take two late round firsts to trade to seven, so it all kind of worked out. we lost one pick, but the other turned out to be a gift and will make up for it in value.

    8.bottom line about the playoffs? they are going to be much harder than the super bowl.
  26. njpatsfan

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Yeah Mo, I noticed that too - and I'm glad you pointed it out. To, me it's just one more indication of how far the knowledgeable football discussion on this board has sunk. If every offensive series isn't in the endzone in 5 plays the OC sucks, and if every defensive series isn't a 3 and out - player X sucks (because eveyone thinks they can be a OC - and noone has a clue what DC's do). In most cases its a poster who's more interested in proving how "smart" they are - with usually the opposite result.

    I always enjoy Ken's posts. He spent a lot of time and effort putting them together, and never disappoints. If only others would spend 1/10 the time thinking before responding - or starting another lame thread.

    R
  27. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    Another aspect of this is that with the Patriots keeping their CBs on a given side, teams are lining up their top receiver against Hobbs, meaning, Hobbs is typically getting some tough matchups. Asante may be our "#1 CB", but as was apparent the other nite, is not necessarily going to be matched up against the #1 wideout of the other team.

    Another factor is that teams are in general avoiding Asante anyway, as he's a ball-hawking threat. I do think Hobbs' cushion has appeared to be too big at times, but we've discussed in other threads at length that it is somewhat a function of the zone schemes they employ. It's tough to judge, particularly on TV.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2007
  28. oldskool138

    oldskool138 Rookie

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts"....

    Isn't Texas Stadium a dome? ;) :D
  29. FSUPatsFan

    FSUPatsFan Rookie

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    Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

    I don't think its a load of new bandwagoners changing their tune. Pats Fans have known all along who the best QB in the league is. Their argument in support of Brady was that he didn't have the stats, but watch him play. He wins and is clutch. If you watch him play, he can make every throw, he just doesn't have the help. Now that Brady has put up the stats its sort of vindication. It's like saying "EFF YOU! We told you so!"

    Also, Pats fans realize what we have in Brady is special and we want nothing but the best for Brady. If it was up to Pats fans Brady would hold the records for Wins, SB Wins, Passing Yards, Touchdowns, QB Rating, MVPs, SB MVPs, Winning percentage, etc.

    Its not that we just started suddenly caring about the stats. We first and foremost care about the wins, but at the same time, we want everyone to know who the best qb in the league is and we want there to be no doubt that when Brady retires he is the greatest of all time (like Michael Jordan).
  30. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    2. I'm a big Marino fan, and I think he was a fantastic all-time great at QB. I've never seen anyone play the position better, and that includes Brady. I do disagree though that he didn't have receiver talent. He did. His receivers were excellent. Like Brady, Marino was incredible in the pocket, very difficult to sack, and he had a laser arm and very very quick release. He could lead a 4th quarter comeback instantly. Easily the most feared QB I've ever watched.

    The problem with Marino is that he was not a good leader. Like Manning in the earlier years, he chewed out his teammates, moaned, cried and cussed. You just knew things were going to go wrong when his face turned red. I'd still take him over Manning though, but I think Brady only beats Marino in two categories: leadership and short, swing passes.

    As for the record, this is Marino's schedule end of the season in 1984:

    Week 11 PHI 23 at MIA 24 Box
    Week 12 MIA 28 at SDG 34 OT Box
    Week 13 NYJ 17 at MIA 28 Box
    Week 14 LAD 45 at MIA 34 Box
    Week 15 MIA 35 at IND 17 Box
    Week 16 DAL 21 at MIA 28 Box

    Not a cold weather game the whole entire season.

    1. Tedy Bruschi shoved it in Marshall Faulk's face after the game by referencing the Super Bowl against the Rams.
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