Not so "idle thoughts"...

[BradyManny]

Good post, plus, if Moss sticks around, Brady's career #s are going to look Manning-esque, he's already catching up in plenty of categories.

 

[patfanken]

Sorry, this is the one stinker in an otherwise great post. You either did not see or do not remember the "Marks" Brothers. They were every bid the equivalent of Moss/Welker/Stallworth. And as far as the number of catches they had, didn't that occur in the era of the 14 (12?) game schedule?

This post is wrong on SOOOO many levels. First Marino played a 16 game schedule, and SECONDLY, to compare Duper and Clayton to Moss and Welker is ridiculous. A better analogy would be comparing the 'Marks brothers' to Branch and Givens. Both were good WRs, but their were close to being a HOFer like Moss.

The LB put his hands on the Moss outside the 5-yrad area..ergo PI. That's supposedly what Hobbs did wrong last year. Say what you want but at the the Refs were consistent.

I didn't it COULDN'T be called PI, I just opined that it SHOULDN'T be called.

 

[patpatriot]

This post is wrong on SOOOO many levels. First Marino played a 16 game schedule, and SECONDLY, to compare Duper and Clayton to Moss and Welker is ridiculous. A better analogy would be comparing the 'Marks brothers' to Branch and Givens. Both were good WRs, but their were close to being a HOFer like Moss.

and Welker is a HOFmer? Anyway, Fine.. I have a job and don't have the time to collect the statistics to refute your argument.

I didn't it COULDN'T be called PI, I just opined that it SHOULDN'T be called.

Why not? Them's the rules! The got rid of "facemasking" but they had to have some other response don't you think?

 

[Fencer]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

Well, far be it for me to give Josh McDaniel tips, but since you asked....

Since I was a DC before I was a HC, I really appreciate how the potential of the play action pass (PAP) and the problems it causes defenses. I would have more plays with Brady under the center and Moroney behind him in a single back or 2 back set.

From this set, he the defense HAS to respect both the run and pass options. As for actual run plays, I'd like to see more sweeps tried, to take advantage of Moroney's speed, and cut back ability. On the inside, I like the quicker hitting plays at defined holes. This would take advantage of teams that are trying to use gap penetration, or teams playing the 3-4. What I'm looking for here is the 3-6 yd hard run at the bubble. This is what sets up the PAP. As far as getting the most of Moroney's skill, off tackle power plays or sweeps gives him the best chance for breaking off the big plays we all hope Moroney can give us with more consistency.

In the same vein, the power play, can set up a great PAP action, and the sweep sets up the bootleg action. And while Brady isn't much of a run threat, bootleg action is a b!tch for defenses. It slows down the backside DE's rush, and can really reek havoc on a a secondary's coverage.

BTW- I think the switch to the "zone blocking" scheme, in the short run, has hurt the effectiveness of the running game. Perhaps it will prove to be a great thing next year when the OL has had a chance to get used to this new scheme. but for this year, it hasn't been a success as far as the running game goes.

What you've just said is that you'd favor switching out of a shotgun, so as to improve the running game and improve play-action passing.

Given how happy and productive Brady is in the shotgun, do you really think the benefits of such a switch would outweigh the costs?

 

[AzPatsFan]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

Ken, you've got to be one of the few guys here who could talk about hitting an NFL running back in the mouth and not be laughed at.

As for Maroney's running plays -- he seems to do most of his running these days from the SHOTGUN. Are there any play calls (past whatever quota of draws can be expected to work) that you think would work any better than the straightforward handoffs and delays?

IMO, Maraoney runs best with a lead FB. I offer not only the fifty one yard ands fity nine yard runs in which Heath Evans lead him into the hole both times, but several others as well,as well as his successful goaline running.

Russ Hochstein as a reserve RG is probably slightly better than Steven Neal at the point of attack on in-line blocking, but he is nowhere as good as a pulling Guard.

For that matter, I firmly believe that Neal is the THE BEST pulling RG in the League, or when he is leading a screen pass downfield. He just excels at getting outside and get an open field pancake block on even quick, elusive defenders. Not having him I think prevents using Maroney on wide plays while Steven is out with injury.

.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

What you've just said is that you'd favor switching out of a shotgun, so as to improve the running game and improve play-action passing.

Given how happy and productive Brady is in the shotgun, do you really think the benefits of such a switch would outweigh the costs?

With an undermanned Oline and a QB whose forte is reading defenses, not to mention all the disguises and blitzing we've faced as opponents try to formulate some nebulous bluprint, I doubt it. It's a biatch to read from your ass.

If you're just looking to run yours against your best guess at theirs...but that's not the way they operate this offense. It's all about reads and matchups, pre and post snap. Shotgun gives Brady and the line time to react and adjust calls and alter assignments and protections or routes to the coverage.

 

[ClevTrev]

This post is wrong on SOOOO many levels. First Marino played a 16 game schedule, and SECONDLY, to compare Duper and Clayton to Moss and Welker is ridiculous. A better analogy would be comparing the 'Marks brothers' to Branch and Givens. Both were good WRs, but their were close to being a HOFer like Moss.

OK, this is where I respectfully disagree. Back in the day, 1984 to be exact, when Fantasy Football was literally in its infancy, Duper and Clayton were the best one-two punch in the league with the QB with the best arm throwing to them. They had speed and ran precise routes. They set records for team passing yards (8,869-Duper) and team catches (550-Clayton). It was hard for any opposing team to stop them when they played together.

Now, I agree that Moss is in his own category; however, any team would be thrilled today to have the equivalent of a Duper/ Clayton combination with a strong-armed QB. That combination was a winner and was tough to beat. Just to note: Their combined statistics surpass those of Hall of Famers John Stallworth and Lynn Swann by 220 catches, 3,568 yards, and 29 touchdowns. This can't be ignored when recounting their careers, as they have every reason to be put into the great WR category, and while I've always been a rabid Pats fan, this is a point that I won't hesitate to argue. They were fun to watch just for their sheer skill and speed.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

Well, far be it for me to give Josh McDaniel tips, but since you asked....

Since I was a DC before I was a HC, I really appreciate how the potential of the play action pass (PAP) and the problems it causes defenses. I would have more plays with Brady under the center and Moroney behind him in a single back or 2 back set.

From this set, he the defense HAS to respect both the run and pass options. As for actual run plays, I'd like to see more sweeps tried, to take advantage of Moroney's speed, and cut back ability. On the inside, I like the quicker hitting plays at defined holes. This would take advantage of teams that are trying to use gap penetration, or teams playing the 3-4. What I'm looking for here is the 3-6 yd hard run at the bubble. This is what sets up the PAP. As far as getting the most of Moroney's skill, off tackle power plays or sweeps gives him the best chance for breaking off the big plays we all hope Moroney can give us with more consistency.

In the same vein, the power play, can set up a great PAP action, and the sweep sets up the bootleg action. And while Brady isn't much of a run threat, bootleg action is a b!tch for defenses. It slows down the backside DE's rush, and can really reek havoc on a a secondary's coverage.

BTW- I think the switch to the "zone blocking" scheme, in the short run, has hurt the effectiveness of the running game. Perhaps it will prove to be a great thing next year when the OL has had a chance to get used to this new scheme. but for this year, it hasn't been a success as far as the running game goes.

PatfanKen,

I too would like to see more sweeps, but I also recognize that there are some issues there. IMHO, Steven Neal is the best pulling RG in Football. There are others who are better as in-line blockers though, and Russ Hochstein his relief these last half season, is usually such a guy, but who is not anywhere as nimble in a pulling role. When the guy can't do it, why try?

Bill has always said:

"Don't tell me what he can't do. Tell me what he can do!" His idea is to use situational substitution, or play selection, to bring out the best that a player can do, and not ask him to do the impossible for him. All that leads to, is poor execution, and failure.

So while Russ plays in place of Steve, there will be few(er) sweeps, and classical screens.

Power runs between the tackles is something I also just as you would like to see called more. But as above, there are some issues. The TE position is intrinsic to power football. Brady has been dinged for several games; and when he wasn't Watson was/is. There has been little continuity at TE to promote a power running scheme.

BB is no fool; when you can't Force it... than Finesse it. With the limitations on the the use of screens to slow down the pass rush, (above), then you have to have the Draw to act as a slow down play. The shotgun draw is such a response, too.

 

[FrontSeven]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

I don't think its a load of new bandwagoners changing their tune. Pats Fans have known all along who the best QB in the league is. Their argument in support of Brady was that he didn't have the stats, but watch him play. He wins and is clutch. If you watch him play, he can make every throw, he just doesn't have the help. Now that Brady has put up the stats its sort of vindication. It's like saying "EFF YOU! We told you so!"

Also, Pats fans realize what we have in Brady is special and we want nothing but the best for Brady. If it was up to Pats fans Brady would hold the records for Wins, SB Wins, Passing Yards, Touchdowns, QB Rating, MVPs, SB MVPs, Winning percentage, etc.

Its not that we just started suddenly caring about the stats. We first and foremost care about the wins, but at the same time, we want everyone to know who the best qb in the league is and we want there to be no doubt that when Brady retires he is the greatest of all time (like Michael Jordan).

I'm sure that is true and valid as well.

Anybody watching the way Brady has played would have to have rocks in his head to not see that he has never had the receiver support that Manning has had. That has been the only difference to me.

 

[the taildragger]

2 words re: Marino,

COVER-TWO.

...Marino didn't play against it in his most productive years.

The rest of your post is true (Marx Bros are a tad overrated I think), but you have to blance that against the Pre-Cover-Two Era. I love the guy and there's no way Peyton is in #13's class.

To Marino's credit, he single handedly changed the game....didn't so much change the way the position is played (he was unique), but he did as much as the west coast offense did to push the evolution of defense to new levels.

But let's also not dismiss the fact that Tom only played "a few" severe weather games, if not for those games he probably gets 60td (somehow got 3 in that Redskins blowout even though it was played in a hurricane).

 

[upstater1]

Bruschi was extremely polite and did not come close to shoving anything in Faulk's face.

Faulk asked what it was like having an offensive football team after all those years of being a defensive football team. Bruschi made a very respectable reply and said that just trying to squeak out a field goal to win a game like in the Rams superbowl game was what the team was used to, and that they where not really used to the blowout games at all.

Uh, he did shove it in his face. He had a smirk when he said it, reminding him of that Super Bowl win, and you could see Faulk's face when he clearly reacted to the memory of it. Bruschi looked him right in the eye, and said, just like that Super Bowl against you guys.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Uh, he did shove it in his face. He had a smirk when he said it, reminding him of that Super Bowl win, and you could see Faulk's face when he clearly reacted to the memory of it. Bruschi looked him right in the eye, and said, just like that Super Bowl against you guys.

I love it!
The 2007 Patriots GFY tour continues, thanks to Bruschi on Faulk.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

Yeah Mo, I noticed that too - and I'm glad you pointed it out. To, me it's just one more indication of how far the knowledgeable football discussion on this board has sunk. If every offensive series isn't in the endzone in 5 plays the OC sucks, and if every defensive series isn't a 3 and out - player X sucks (because eveyone thinks they can be a OC - and noone has a clue what DC's do). In most cases its a poster who's more interested in proving how "smart" they are - with usually the opposite result.


R

I have to disagree with the assessment that Ellis had even a pretty good "system" year. He had a horrible year. Why throw at Assante when you can throw at Ellis? His technique is bad, he gives too much cushion to any reciever lined up in front of him and doesn't have the speed needed to make up that cushion. All one has to do is look at the Baltimore and Philly games to see prime examples of what I mention. He was constantly abused by both quarterbacks. He is constantly getting burnt on short routes, turns the wrong way when he is in support and can't cover long. Other than that he had a great year:singing: .

The fact that Blue Gay couldn't take his position points at the unbelievable job that the coaching staff did this year. It is a shame that there aren't any franchise type cornerbacks in this years draft because Ellis can't take Assante's place and I am not sure if the Pats will pay Assante.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

I have to disagree with the assessment that Ellis had even a pretty good "system" year. He had a horrible year. Why throw at Assante when you can throw at Ellis? His technique is bad, he gives too much cushion to any reciever lined up in front of him and doesn't have the speed needed to make up that cushion. All one has to do is look at the Baltimore and Philly games to see prime examples of what I mention. He was constantly abused by both quarterbacks. He is constantly getting burnt on short routes, turns the wrong way when he is in support and can't cover long. Other than that he had a great year:singing: .

The fact that Blue Gay couldn't take his position points at the unbelievable job that the coaching staff did this year. It is a shame that there aren't any franchise type cornerbacks in this years draft because Ellis can't take Assante's place and I am not sure if the Pats will pay Assante.

You must have watched a different Ellis Hobbs than everyone else. While Hobbs was not great, he wasn't terrible either. To say that he doesn't have the speed to make up the cushion he is coached to give, is just ludicrous. Also, the Pats defense is designed for the CBs to give up the short routes because the goal is to have the linemen in the way of the QB so he can't throw them.

What Hobbs doesn't have is SIZE. But he does make up for that in his leaping ability. And he did have significantly more passes defensed this year than last year.

Do I think Hobbs is a #1 corner? Not in a million years. But hes a pretty good #2, though probably better suited to #3. Do the Pats NEED to keep Asante? Nope. Just like they didn't NEED to keep Law. There are free agent options (Asamougha) who could come in and be very effective. Its a matter of what the Pats want to pay and who they draft.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

Well, that kinda's leads me to the next question {which might deserve it's own thread}. I'll admit my lack of knowledge here and am looking for reasoned and knowledgeable answers.

When it comes to the GOAT QB, What are the most influential qualities that would go into designating who would/should be considered?

I guess it depends on who you ask, but the most popular I hear tossed around are Montana, Marino and the occasional Elway (least in the SB era). Some people put Farve and Manning in there, but lets be honest, outside us, Brady is rarely mentioned, or at least only grudgingly so.

Is it stats, wins, TD's, rings, winning %, passing yds, etc? Since Montana is probably top of most experts lists, I have to assume it's the wins, clutch, coolness, rings that obviously weigh him heavier than pure statistical measures of a Marino.

Perhaps I'm a homer, but if Tom were to retire in March (lets assume after his 4th ring for argument sake ), Would there be ANY question that it would be Brady?, Seriously, look at it.

• Just Win Baby - Career wise, through 110 regular season starts, Brady has 86 wins (78%), which is 4.5 % more than the next guy, Roger Staubach and close to 7 points better than Montana (71.3 % - 3rd on the all-time list) - Brady's post season wins stats are even better (12-2)
• Clutch - Brady already has 28 comeback wins when trailing in the 4th. Thats only 3 short of Montana (193 games) and only 19 short Elway's record of 47 (Elway did it in 234 games (to Brady's 124).
• Rings - He (using my argument ) would have his 4th by March. Hell, even at three, he's still among the top of all time.
• Stats - I think it's safe to say that statistically, this is one of the greatest season of any QB, any time, and his stats, while not as gaudy as a Marino of Manning perhaps, are certainly on par with the other greats. Plus the Season TD record is quite a feather in the cap.

What other measurables am I missing? Like I said, not saying his IS the GOAT at this point, buy why (in a serious way), does he not even allowed to be in the conversation already (seems to me anyway) at this stage of his career.

Thanks, the homer in me wants to know.

Apologies to Otto, Starr and all those old timer. It's just unfair to compare them with SB era players (which is hard enough)

This topic deserves a whole thread.

Essentially, any way you slice it, Brady leads the pack except in his limited sample size.

He can either get better or worse from here statistically. I am thinking better.

Favre will never seriously be in the consideration unless GOAT means 'most manly man' or some equally silly criteria.

Elway is a close second to HOWEVER is the GOAT, mainly due to the fact that his ace card was talent and the comeback, but not overall statistical greatness so much.

Marino is out, with not even a superbowl victory. Manning is out in my opinion because he is all about stats and not much else. He stinks in the playoffs overall. Totally stinks.

That leaves Montana, and his splitting image in Brady. I think Brady needs another superbowl to be compared rightly to Montana. Two superbowls and Brady is on his own as GOATMAN.

Personally, I think Sammy Baugh and Otto Graham where possibly as good as these guys. Out of the two, I would say that Otto Graham is the closest to Brady in terms of unreal win percentages.

I have a soft spot for Graham. But I would still take Brady over anybody else in history. He is our guy!

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Uh, he did shove it in his face. He had a smirk when he said it, reminding him of that Super Bowl win, and you could see Faulk's face when he clearly reacted to the memory of it. Bruschi looked him right in the eye, and said, just like that Super Bowl against you guys.

Get real. I saw the interview and Bruschi was the model of politeness. He answered Faulk's question by saying the pats where used to those close games, and winning by a field goal.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

I'm sure that is true and valid as well.

Anybody watching the way Brady has played would have to have rocks in his head to not see that he has never had the receiver support that Manning has had. That has been the only difference to me.

The only difference? This is a pet peeve of mine, but I see the difference as being big. Always have.

Brady is better in every conceivable way. His stats are better indoors and outdoors. He does more with less, more with more.

Unless Manning wins the superbowl this year with his top 3 ranked defense, the whole bullsh1t argument that Manning would do the same as Brady if only he had a top defense also goes right out the window in one more giant chokeball.

 

[aluminum seats]

Get real. I saw the interview and Bruschi was the model of politeness. He answered Faulk's question by saying the pats where used to those close games, and winning by a field goal.

That's exactly right. If anything, he was referencing it in the sense that it was something that he and Faulk shared--playing games on the big stage. He was in no way "rubbing it in his face." If he had been doing that, Bruschi would have been acting like a jerk, which he is not.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

That's exactly right. If anything, he was referencing it in the sense that it was something that he and Faulk shared--playing games on the big stage. He was in no way "rubbing it in his face." If he had been doing that, Bruschi would have been acting like a jerk, which he is not.

Furthermore, it was a show of humility. He acknowledged that not much at all seperated the Pats from the Rams but a field goal.

Then he went on to say that the miserable SOB '72 Dolphins where completely correct in saying that the exhibition season was over, and when asked about their snide comments, he simply said that they deserve respect.

The interview is on the right side of this page under the video viewer window:

http://www.patriots.com/homepage/

 

[patfanken]

Re: Not so "idle thoughts".....

What you've just said is that you'd favor switching out of a shotgun, so as to improve the running game and improve play-action passing.

Given how happy and productive Brady is in the shotgun, do you really think the benefits of such a switch would outweigh the costs?

Actually, Fencer, that is not what I said. I"m not adverse to having that Pats in a shot gun formation. There are obvious advantages in running the shot gun, the most important being that Brady gets to see the rush and coverage right away. When you run PAP, the QB's back is turned until after he makes the fake.

I'm not asking the Pats go give up the shot gun, or even give up passing on obvious running downs. All I'd like to see is to have the Pats run more plays with the QB under C and a RB behind him on those obvious running downs. Despite their current effectiveness of running 4 WR and empty backfield sets on 3rd and 2 situations, I can't help but think that it would be so much easier, if they just presented the run option to the defense in those situations

By doing so you can controll the defenses personell packages, and what they can do on defense. If they know you are going to pass, then all you will get is dime personal pacages and a lot of zone or overload blitzes with tight man coverages underneath.