Ninkovich and Crable as our OLB's

[captain stone]

Re: Ninovich and Crable As Our OLB's

Every player you mentioned is not starting quality, except for TBC.

I don't think that TBC is starting-quality, either; at least, not for a legit SB contender. He'd be a good #3, though.

 

[pats1]

Re: Ninovich and Crable As Our OLB's

I don't think that TBC is starting-quality, either; at least, not for a legit SB contender. He'd be a good #3, though.

Completely agree.

 

[patsfan55]

But, we certainly trust Belichick to find OLB's.

Why is that?
The only ones that had prolonged success were my boy Willie and Vrabel. Willie was here long before BB ever came to town.

 

[TheComeback]

You didn't read my post. Trading Wilfork would be parterned with moving to a 4-3. Obviously you wouldn't trade Wilfork if you intended on staying in a 3-4. However, I think it will be tough for the Patriots to keep Wilfork around here beyond 2010. What do you do then at nose tackle? That's what I was advocating 4-3, because that allows Brace and Pryor (and Guyton) to play their natural positions.

I did read your post. Brace and Pryor haven't shown any ability to stop the run on their own. If they switch to a 4-3, they're still much better off having Wilfork and Ty Warren 2-gapping on the inside. I do think a 4-3 would help Mayo and Guyton a lot, but only if the Pats have the power on the d-line to eat up blockers. Neither Pryor or Brace has shown they can be that type of player, especially Brace. The Patriots played some 4 man fronts with both of those players. It's not a question of position or scheme, it's whether they can physically play against NFL lineman, and neither has shown they can do so consistently.

Not to mention that betraying Wilfork with the franchise tag and sending him off somewhere for a pick would hurt the locker room even more. Look at what the Seymour trade did. Even though it was good for the team in the long run, hopefully, it led to a number of players questioning Belichick's judgment. Wilfork is also one of the few veteran leaders left on the team.

Giving Wilfork a good deal not only makes him happy, but sends a message to the players that they do value guys who contribute to the team and are willing to reward them... rather than use them as bargaining chips. Lock up Wilfork, and I think he'll help bring some of the younger guys who questioned the Seymour trade back into Belichick's system.

They better find someone. He won't lower his standards, but he'll find someone better than Burgess. Much better.

Will he? I hope so, but I'm not so sure about it. If Burgess can be had on the cheap, he might be worth it just to plug a gap on defense for a while. Otherwise, they should look to the draft. Linebacker, especially OLB, has been a liability for a few seasons now and we haven't drafted anyone at those positions who could seriously contend for a starting job, except Mayo. Guyton doesn't look like he has the tools to break through the line and play the run. They can't go for value picks like Crable anymore.

Well, let's not go that far. But regardless of Banta-Cain's pass rush prowess, he was mediocre against the run this season. The Pats will need to do better to prevent another debacle against Baltimore. That's what this is all about.

Just want to clarify that I don't think Banta-Cain is the second coming of James Harrison. But he still brings the Patriots something they need, and if they address other areas of the defense in the offseason, his weakness against the run would be less of a liability, especially if he's able to work on it like he obviously worked on his pass rushing.

 

[captain stone]

Pats1: I didn't see Mack Herron's similarly-worded rebuttal to your post re: TBC before I posted my own; so I didn't mean it to sound like I was piling-on.

This was an excellent post by Comeback, because I am also not comfortable entrusting the DT positions of a new 4-3 to Wright, Brace, Pryor, Richard & Adrian Grady. I would rather re-sign Wilfork and extend Warren, if he can stay healthy next season. They could be starting DTs in a 4-3, or starting NT & DE in a 3-4. I'd rather have a signed, happy & motivated Wilfork (& Warren) leading the rest of a young defense into 2010 & beyond.

We've lost too much talent & leadership since the end of 2005; Bill should keep the remaining talent we still have while they remain young & productive. And, as Comeback put it, keeping Wilfork for the long-term would send a strong message to the locker room that the FO - incl. the Krafts - will not try to squeeze every last snap of a rookie contract from a player who has been productive, dependable, and a credit to the franchise.

 

[captain stone]

Why is that?
The only ones that had prolonged success were my boy Willie and Vrabel. Willie was here long before BB ever came to town.

I wonder if MGT wasn't being a wee facetious there.

 

[satz]

4-3 will be a even bigger bust then a 3-4 due to the money needed to run it. instead of giving vince a 30-40 million garanteed money as NT we get rid of him. Then run 4-3 where we need 2 DE.
The most expensive position in front 7 in NFL. Even avg 4-3 end are expensive a reason pepper franchise number was 16 million as elite ends and even avg ends will be more expensive then vince .

Personnal - TBC,Burgess,Crabel ,Ninvowich all are 250 making them no usuable as DE as they are too small.

If so much personal suited for 3-4 i have no idea why we go 4-3 and make 2-3 yr transition.

 

[pats1]

4-3 will be a even bigger bust then a 3-4 due to the money needed to run it. instead of giving vince a 30-40 million garanteed money as NT we get rid of him. Then run 4-3 where we need 2 DE.
The most expensive position in front 7 in NFL. Even avg 4-3 end are expensive a reason pepper franchise number was 16 million as elite ends and even avg ends will be more expensive then vince .

Personnal - TBC,Burgess,Crabel ,Ninvowich all are 250 making them no usuable as DE as they are too small.

If so much personal suited for 3-4 i have no idea why we go 4-3 and make 2-3 yr transition.

You're forgetting that you also have to pay for a 3-4 OLB if you want a 3-4 to be effective.

There is not "so much personnel suited for a 3-4." Only two of the players you mentioned are even under contract for 2010: Ninkovich and Crable. Ninkovich was a 4-3 for three years with the Saints. Crable was a 4-3 OLB with Michigan. In either case, they're nothing more than special teamers in my plan. Otherwise, your other personnel is suited for a 4-3: Brace, Guyton, Mayo, Pryor...

 

[pats1]

Pats1: I didn't see Mack Herron's similarly-worded rebuttal to your post re: TBC before I posted my own; so I didn't mean it to sound like I was piling-on.

This was an excellent post by Comeback, because I am also not comfortable entrusting the DT positions of a new 4-3 to Wright, Brace, Pryor, Richard & Adrian Grady. I would rather re-sign Wilfork and extend Warren, if he can stay healthy next season. They could be starting DTs in a 4-3, or starting NT & DE in a 3-4. I'd rather have a signed, happy & motivated Wilfork (& Warren) leading the rest of a young defense into 2010 & beyond.

We've lost too much talent & leadership since the end of 2005; Bill should keep the remaining talent we still have while they remain young & productive. And, as Comeback put it, keeping Wilfork for the long-term would send a strong message to the locker room that the FO - incl. the Krafts - will not try to squeeze every last snap of a rookie contract from a player who has been productive, dependable, and a credit to the franchise.

Keeping Warren and Wilfork at DT will give you considerably less resources to go out and get 2-3 good DEs for a 4-3. Without them the plan fails; you will have zero pass rush. Keeping Wilfork and Warren also basically renders your draft choice of Brace (and Pryor) useless.

I'm literally talking about going out and using Wilfork and Warren to sign some like Peppers AND draft two DEs in the first two rounds. That's the only way you're going to have a 4-3 plan work, because all of your pass rush comes from the DEs.

 

[pats1]

I did read your post. Brace and Pryor haven't shown any ability to stop the run on their own. If they switch to a 4-3, they're still much better off having Wilfork and Ty Warren 2-gapping on the inside. I do think a 4-3 would help Mayo and Guyton a lot, but only if the Pats have the power on the d-line to eat up blockers. Neither Pryor or Brace has shown they can be that type of player, especially Brace. The Patriots played some 4 man fronts with both of those players. It's not a question of position or scheme, it's whether they can physically play against NFL lineman, and neither has shown they can do so consistently.

Not to mention that betraying Wilfork with the franchise tag and sending him off somewhere for a pick would hurt the locker room even more. Look at what the Seymour trade did. Even though it was good for the team in the long run, hopefully, it led to a number of players questioning Belichick's judgment. Wilfork is also one of the few veteran leaders left on the team.

Giving Wilfork a good deal not only makes him happy, but sends a message to the players that they do value guys who contribute to the team and are willing to reward them... rather than use them as bargaining chips. Lock up Wilfork, and I think he'll help bring some of the younger guys who questioned the Seymour trade back into Belichick's system.

Pryor and Brace would be bigger than most 4-3 DTs in the league. Hell, they almost would both play the same position the 4-3 DT, that being a Pat Williams-type NT. THAT's the guy that needs to "eat-up blockers," but that's only ONE position on the DL. Theoretically you'd still need a lighter Kevin Williams-type UT to play the 3-technique. His job is not to "eat up blockers," it's to shoot the gap. Pryor would be that guy until a future draft.

See, I think some of us need to adjust our way of thinking when discussing a 4-3 defense. This isn't a 3-4 defense, where you're looking for big guys to "eat up blockers." You're looking for smaller, faster guys who shoot gaps on the DL and LBs who can run around and make plays. If you can't find those players, then you can't run that system.

Who would it hurt in the locker room? My plan would leave basically all FA, rookie, 1st, or 2nd-year players on defense.

Locking up Wilfork would be something good to do, I agree. But there's a lot of people out there who think that the Pats will franchise him this year and let him walk in 2011. There's not that many people who think the Pats will actually spend the money to re-sign him to a long-term deal after this year, as much as you may want that to happen. That's why I'm thinking ahead and getting a pick for him before you lose him, while also adjusting your scheme so that you can absorb his loss, instead of being stuck in a 3-4 without a NT in 2011.

 

[PowerRunRevival]

Belichick has run the 3-4 defense as his base defense his entire extremely successful career. People can comment all they want that it might be a good idea to change to a 4-3 but Bill has had success in the 3-4 and it is very unlikely he changes schemes.

 

[pats1]

Belichick has run the 3-4 defense as his base defense his entire extremely successful career. People can comment all they want that it might be a good idea to change to a 4-3 but Bill has had success in the 3-4 and it is very unlikely he changes schemes.

He's used a 4-3 in 2000, 2001, 2002, and early 2009. Out of necessity? Yes. But one could argue that the same is the case now. He has a 2nd round DT who has struggled at NT (Brace). He has an LB who has struggled against the run at ILB (Guyton). He has a stud NT who has a better chance of being somewhere else in 2011 (Wilfork). He has a hole at 3-4 DE after trading Seymour. And he has absolutely zero pass rush, or even pass rush personnel on the team.

Now, I'm just presenting this 4-3 plan as another avenue. I'm not saying that maintaining a 3-4 is the worse option. But in either scenario, you will NEED to acquire at least two plus pass rushers to play 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DE. I think by playing a 4-3, that allows you to trade Wilfork and Warren, who would both be heavily coveted by rebuilding 3-4 teams (KC, DEN), and therefore gives you the resources to find those pass rushers. Staying in a 3-4 doesn't; it means you have to tie up money with one more year of Wilfork and then likely let him walk next year, and you'd still have a hole at DE and ILB because Guyton and Brace don't naturally fit there.

 

[TheComeback]

Pryor and Brace would be bigger than most 4-3 DTs in the league. Hell, they almost would both play the same position the 4-3 DT, that being a Pat Williams-type NT. THAT's the guy that needs to "eat-up blockers," but that's only ONE position on the DL. Theoretically you'd still need a lighter Kevin Williams-type UT to play the 3-technique. His job is not to "eat up blockers," it's to shoot the gap. Pryor would be that guy until a future draft.

See, I think some of us need to adjust our way of thinking when discussing a 4-3 defense. This isn't a 3-4 defense, where you're looking for big guys to "eat up blockers." You're looking for smaller, faster guys who shoot gaps on the DL and LBs who can run around and make plays. If you can't find those players, then you can't run that system.

Who would it hurt in the locker room? My plan would leave basically all FA, rookie, 1st, or 2nd-year players on defense.

Locking up Wilfork would be something good to do, I agree. But there's a lot of people out there who think that the Pats will franchise him this year and let him walk in 2011. There's not that many people who think the Pats will actually spend the money to re-sign him to a long-term deal after this year, as much as you may want that to happen. That's why I'm thinking ahead and getting a pick for him before you lose him, while also adjusting your scheme so that you can absorb his loss, instead of being stuck in a 3-4 without a NT in 2011.

I agree. I'm not so sure the Patriots actually will give Wilfork a deal, but they should. Anything less just says to the players that once your rookie deal is completed, you aren't going to get the money from the Patriots that many NFL players feel they deserve, whether it's justified or not.

Seymour got a lucrative contract, but he's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. He's also a borderline HoF player. Brady is the most underpaid QB in the league. They need to stop being cheap if they want a good team in the future.

As for the rest of the comments, not so sure about how much size matters when it comes to any position. You're right that neither Wilfork or Warren is much of a pass-rushing DT, though Warren has shown flashes of being one when healthy. However, I disagree on the point of whether their job should be to eat up blockers. That's the job of every defensive tackle. That's exactly what they should be doing on running downs. On passing downs, each of these guys getting double-teamed leaves one man on your defensive ends.

These guys aren't too big... Wilfork is certainly massive, but Warren is about the same size as Kevin Williams. Wilfork is also very athletic for someone his size, and playing in a 4-3 might allow both of them to go after the quarterback more than they currently do. On passing downs you could bring in Mike Wright instead of Wilfork if you want to shoot the gaps.

As for the DEs, you're right, we wouldn't be able to sign anyone on the free agent market after extending all the players we need to extend (Wilfork, Bodden, TBC, Brady, etc). I would address it through the draft, since there are some great 4-3 DEs coming out this year. We might not be able to get 2 of them right away, but even having Wilfork, Warren, a good rookie DE, and a JAG would result in a better a defense than we have right now. And with our draft picks next year we could easily pick up another DE or two in the future.

I think TBC is big enough at 260+ lbs to play a pass-rushing role as a defensive end. Ninkovich could play a reserve role. They could also kick Wright or someone else out there to stop the run for one season.

Either way the defense needs a lot of work.

 

[pats1]

I agree. I'm not so sure the Patriots actually will give Wilfork a deal, but they should. Anything less just says to the players that once your rookie deal is completed, you aren't going to get the money from the Patriots that many NFL players feel they deserve, whether it's justified or not.

Seymour got a lucrative contract, but he's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. He's also a borderline HoF player. Brady is the most underpaid QB in the league. They need to stop being cheap if they want a good team in the future.

As for the rest of the comments, not so sure about how much size matters when it comes to any position. You're right that neither Wilfork or Warren is much of a pass-rushing DT, though Warren has shown flashes of being one when healthy. However, I disagree on the point of whether their job should be to eat up blockers. That's the job of every defensive tackle. That's exactly what they should be doing on running downs. On passing downs, each of these guys getting double-teamed leaves one man on your defensive ends.

Typically that's not the case on passing downs. Most DTs come off the field on those downs and are replaced by a DE, i.e. Tuck on the Giants, Darren Howard on the Eagles, etc.

These guys aren't too big... Wilfork is certainly massive, but Warren is about the same size as Kevin Williams. Wilfork is also very athletic for someone his size, and playing in a 4-3 might allow both of them to go after the quarterback more than they currently do. On passing downs you could bring in Mike Wright instead of Wilfork if you want to shoot the gaps.

They are big guys, and I'm talking about Brace (330) and Pryor (310). Most 4-3 DTs (especially the 3-technique ones) are in the 285-300 range.

As for the DEs, you're right, we wouldn't be able to sign anyone on the free agent market after extending all the players we need to extend (Wilfork, Bodden, TBC, Brady, etc). I would address it through the draft, since there are some great 4-3 DEs coming out this year. We might not be able to get 2 of them right away, but even having Wilfork, Warren, a good rookie DE, and a JAG would result in a better a defense than we have right now. And with our draft picks next year we could easily pick up another DE or two in the future.

I'm a little confused; what type of DE are you talking about here? A 3-4 DE to replace Green (thus keeping Wilfork and Warren), or a 4-3 DE (or two) to play outside if you trade Wilfork and Warren?

I think TBC is big enough at 260+ lbs to play a pass-rushing role as a defensive end. Ninkovich could play a reserve role. They could also kick Wright or someone else out there to stop the run for one season.

I agree, but you're still going to need two starting DEs in a 4-3 or two starting OLBs in a 3-4. Again, I just think the former may be easier to get because of the resources you'd gain by trading Warren and Wilfork by going to a 4-3. If you stay in the 3-4, thus necessitating franchising Wilfork (and not guaranteeing his future after 2010), then you're hindering your ability to go out and sign, say, a Peppers at OLB.

Either way the defense needs a lot of work.

Indeed. My 4-3 suggestion is just one of the possible avenues. Basically, I approached this subject thinking that the 4-3/3-4 decision is one that needs to be made early. I first made a plan of attack based on 3-4, then I made a plan of attack based on 4-3, which I believe would to a surplus of tradeable assets at DT. I'm not necessarily saying one or the other is better, but I'm showing the pros and cons here.

 

[Blackmon55]

What we need is a thumper ILB (like Ted Johnson), This will free up Mayo to make plays all over the place.

But non of the LB issues matter if they don't sign Wilfork!!!

 

[mgteich]

We can hope for an ILB for another year. Belichick passed on Laurinitis. Why do we we expect to do anything else but to expect Mckenzie to compete with a low-level free agent and Guyton for reps?

What we need is a thumper ILB (like Ted Johnson), This will free up Mayo to make plays all over the place.

But non of the LB issues matter if they don't sign Wilfork!!!