NFL.com: O-Line Analysis (Pats #1)

[Keegs]

people are constantly trying to find excuses for why Brady is so great. First it's Weiss, than Belichick, then Adam V., and how it's the Oline. They can't just say he's great, it has to be due to something else.

in 2007, the Oline was it. They were overrated.

I'm not saying they weren't good... They were good. But definitely not the best.

I wasn't impressed with our online against Philly, Baltimore, the Giants, San Diego and the AFC Championship game, and they were horrible in the Superbowl.

I refuse to believe that the Greatest Oline in the league plays like crap against Good defenses down the stretch and falls apart in the Superbowl.

They were disgustingly, puke-tastingly, craptastically, overrated.

How's that for a hyperbolation?

 

[jays52]

Please explain why you think they were overrated? Keegs hasn't returned to explain maybe you can.

Some kind of evidence to support why you think they were overated.

The line as a whole was overrated last season, that's not an outlandish statement. They have a top five center, the best second best guard in the league, a serviceable right guard, a right tackle playing out of position on the left side and no NFL calibur right tackles.

Mankins is an incredible player and is on his way to being a 5+ time pro-bowler. Koppen does his job well, has good rapport with Brady and can make the right signals. He pulls well and can play well in space. A very solid starting center. Neal is a very good athlete, pulls well, kicks out well, posts with good technique and matches up against athletes. Matt Light has good technique, gets to the second level well and does a good job of maximizing his skills. However, he is not athletic enough to play left tackle. That is a fact and cannot be argued. He gets beat consistently and doesn't recover well at all. The depth of his push off and bucket steps are a good indicator of this. With the first-step quickness of the premier pass rushers these days, this technique is not good enough to compensate for the athletic disparity. He would be much, much better suited to playing the right side. He does play well in space and has decent agility, so I'm not saying he's a bad tackle, he's just a good right tackle playing on the wrong side. Kaczur is not an NFL calibur starter and would be better off backing up the backups. No secret there.

Andyjohnson said that the skill players do not make an offense, and I wholeheartedly agree, but the line is also a function of the quarterback. Everyone on this board knows that Brady is the best (maybe best ever) at sliding in the pocket and maximizing his time. He works through progressions while sliding through a collapsing pocket. If your quarterback has to slide when he hits his hitch step on a 3-step drop something is very wrong.

I'm not saying the line is a bad one, far from it. But to compare it with truely high-level lines historically (KC a few years ago for example) is rediculous.

 

[signbabybrady]

The line as a whole was overrated last season, that's not an outlandish statement. They have a top five center, the best second best guard in the league, a serviceable right guard, a right tackle playing out of position on the left side and no NFL calibur right tackles.

Mankins is an incredible player and is on his way to being a 5+ time pro-bowler. Koppen does his job well, has good rapport with Brady and can make the right signals. He pulls well and can play well in space. A very solid starting center. Neal is a very good athlete, pulls well, kicks out well, posts with good technique and matches up against athletes. Matt Light has good technique, gets to the second level well and does a good job of maximizing his skills. However, he is not athletic enough to play left tackle. That is a fact and cannot be argued. He gets beat consistently and doesn't recover well at all. The depth of his push off and bucket steps are a good indicator of this. With the first-step quickness of the premier pass rushers these days, this technique is not good enough to compensate for the athletic disparity. He would be much, much better suited to playing the right side. He does play well in space and has decent agility, so I'm not saying he's a bad tackle, he's just a good right tackle playing on the wrong side. Kaczur is not an NFL calibur starter and would be better off backing up the backups. No secret there.

Andyjohnson said that the skill players do not make an offense, and I wholeheartedly agree, but the line is also a function of the quarterback. Everyone on this board knows that Brady is the best (maybe best ever) at sliding in the pocket and maximizing his time. He works through progressions while sliding through a collapsing pocket. If your quarterback has to slide when he hits his hitch step on a 3-step drop something is very wrong.

I'm not saying the line is a bad one, far from it. But to compare it with truely high-level lines historically (KC a few years ago for example) is rediculous.

The last line you wrote here bailed you out as I can see you think the line is good and I stated that I don't think you can compare them to the best lines of all time but they were the best last year.

Now to some of your points.

However, he is not athletic enough to play left tackle. That is a fact and cannot be argued

I think Belichick might argue this point with you as he has been the guy pretty much the whole time BB has been here.

Also what makes you think that Light would be so good on the right side? Not everyone can play both sides of the line. He would have to retrain his body to react in the opposite direction.

With the first-step quickness of the premier pass rushers these days

The Idea that he struggles against the premeire pass rushers I find to be a incorrect statement. I think earlyier in his career he struggled against a guy like Taylor but of late he was actually doing much better vs. him but people still continued to say he struggled.

 

[jays52]

The last line you wrote here bailed you out as I can see you think the line is good and I stated that I don't think you can compare them to the best lines of all time but they were the best last year.

Now to some of your points.



I think Belichick might argue this point with you as he has been the guy pretty much the whole time BB has been here.

Also what makes you think that Light would be so good on the right side? Not everyone can play both sides of the line.



The Idea that he struggles against the premeire pass rushers I find to be a incorrect statement. I think earlyier in his career he struggled against a guy like Taylor but of late he was actually doing much better vs. him but people still continued to say he struggled.

Back at ya with counter-points.

1) Yeah, he has been the starting left tackle since he was drafted. OK, so he has started. Tell me, when has the team had a viable, starting right tackle? How many has the team tried to draft? Just because someone starts doesn't mean they're studs. I don't know what Belichick thinks, but I enough to have an educated opinion.

2) I think Light would be better suited to right tackle for a number of reasons. The first of which is his feet. A left tackle needs to have athletic footwork superior to that of Light. I'm not knocking him, he's just not athletic enough for the position. He would be a great right tackle because it would affort more outside stuff to the right side, enable better (or rather less predictable) bubble screens and traditional screens. I'm not saying we should switch him to the right side with the roster as-is, but I would like to see a better athlete on the right side.

3) Did you really watch the lineplay this season? Honest question. To say that Light isn't CONSTANTLY defeated by speed is crazy, simply crazy. When he has handled speed rushers, it is because he is getting chips delayed releases to knock the defender into position for him. Remember all those strip-sacks this season? Ever wonder what they were a function of?

I'm really not trying to get into a pissing match with you, just have a civil debate. I just feel that you honestly don't know how to evaluate linemen.

 

[BradyManny]

people are constantly trying to find excuses for why Brady is so great. First it's Weiss, than Belichick, then Adam V., and how it's the Oline. They can't just say he's great, it has to be due to something else.

in 2007, the Oline was it. They were overrated.

I'm not saying they weren't good... They were good. But definitely not the best.

I wasn't impressed with our online against Philly, Baltimore, the Giants, San Diego and the AFC Championship game, and they were horrible in the Superbowl.

I refuse to believe that the Greatest Oline in the league plays like crap against Good defenses down the stretch and falls apart in the Superbowl.

They were disgustingly, puke-tastingly, craptastically, overrated.

How's that for a hyperbolation?

Let's put it this way:

Where would the O-Line be ranked on that list if it weren't protecting Brady and Brady wasn't throwing it to Moss?

Honestly, I'd say just above middle of the pack. If anyone thinks the OL carried Brady & Moss to the numbers they have been putting up, they're on crack. Moss has been one of the best receivers in the league since the instant he entered the NFL, and Brady has been one of the best QBs in the league since Mo Lewis knocked out Bledsoe. They make the O-Line look better than it is - especially Brady, who hangs in there and takes a lot of hits after releasing the ball (see Football Outsider's [via ESPN] breakdown of O-Line play from last year for proof).

That's not to say this isn't a good O-Line. They are good. But they are great b/c of who is playing QB. It's the Scottie Pippen factor. When Scottie Pippen played with Jordan, he was one of the best all around players of his generation. When Jordan wasn't there, he was a pretty good player.

 

[patsox23]

Thanks for once again making any conversation about the possibility of them being overrated impossible by association.

 

[signbabybrady]

Back at ya with counter-points.

1) Yeah, he has been the starting left tackle since he was drafted. OK, so he has started. Tell me, when has the team had a viable, starting right tackle? How many has the team tried to draft? Just because someone starts doesn't mean they're studs. I don't know what Belichick thinks, but I enough to have an educated opinion.

2) I think Light would be better suited to right tackle for a number of reasons. The first of which is his feet. A left tackle needs to have athletic footwork superior to that of Light. I'm not knocking him, he's just not athletic enough for the position. He would be a great right tackle because it would affort more outside stuff to the right side, enable better (or rather less predictable) bubble screens and traditional screens. I'm not saying we should switch him to the right side with the roster as-is, but I would like to see a better athlete on the right side.

3) Did you really watch the lineplay this season? Honest question. To say that Light isn't CONSTANTLY defeated by speed is crazy, simply crazy. When he has handled speed rushers, it is because he is getting chips delayed releases to knock the defender into position for him. Remember all those strip-sacks this season? Ever wonder what they were a function of?

I'm really not trying to get into a pissing match with you, just have a civil debate. I just feel that you honestly don't know how to evaluate linemen.

You might be better at analyizing olines than me but memory could use some work. The Pats led the league in sacks allowed and I would imagine very few of those were strip sacks. Also I believe they were in the top ten for QB hits per pass play.


you seem to know what you are talking about with the oline but it also seems like you have something against Light because he is a very good LT who has been to multiple pro bowls and more importantly helped to keep Brady safe.

 

[DefenseRules]

You might be better at analyizing olines than me but memory could use some work. The Pats led the league in sacks allowed and I would imagine very few of those were strip sacks. Also I believe they were in the top ten for QB hits per pass play.


you seem to know what you are talking about with the oline but it also seems like you have something against Light because he is a very good LT who has been to multiple pro bowls and more importantly helped to keep Brady safe.

Yeah he did an OUTSTANDING JOB of protecting Brady in the Super Bowl.

Bah, now I'm pissed all over again. In all fairness to Matt Light, that ENTIRE OFFENSIVE LINE WAS OFFENSIVE TO WATCH IN THAT SUPER BOWL. I felt like cutting every last one of those guys after that game was over.
Seriously, we've won Championships with Matt Light, Dan Koppen and Stephen Neal on that line. So they can't be that bad.
They had a bad game. I pray that they never look that bad in a game again.

 

[Keegs]

Thanks for once again making any conversation about the possibility of them being overrated impossible by association.

not a problem.:singing:

 

[jeffbiologist]

Many times the most talented players dont make for the most talented line. What makes this line good is their OL coach(Dante!)and the fact that they have played together for so long.
With every "bad"OL in the league its always because they have guys coming in and out and shifting positions. Our OL covers well for their mistakes but got exposed in the SB. One of the truest tests of a OLman is for him to go to another team and being as good or better....it rarely happens. Woody to Detroit? Mawae to his places. Turley? Thinking about other good OL....but I am sure you guys know more examples. This is why I am NOT worried about the JETS new OL....