NFL attorney says NFLPA's move to vacate Brady's Deflategate suspension is 'baseless'

[patfanken]

If a Judge wants to go by the letter of the law, the NFLPA has no case as they agreed to everything in the CBA and the CBA lets Goodell do whatever he wants. Not trying to be a downer or anything, but we don't really know anything about this judge aside from he wants everything public and for both sides to stop talking in public about the case.

I definitely disagree. The NFLPA DID agree to let Goodell be the arbiter of his own punishment, so the fact that he was the arbiter is NOT in issue here. but AS the arbiter, there are some things that Goodell does needs to follow.

1. He needs to make a case that the process was a fair one....or at worst has the appearance of being fair. Goodell and the NFL can't even come close to reaching even THAT low bar.

2. He needs to follow the rules, procedures, policies and precedents of the NFL and the CBA signed in 2011. You cannot show me anywhere in the NFL rules, procedures, precedents and in the CBA, where Goodell is allowed to charge a man with a crime he can't reasonably prove occurred, then punish him with a sentence so draconian that it defies explanation. Tampering with balls - $9,000 fine Not cooperating with an investigation (which has been proven to be a flat out lie) $50K fine., No suspensions - No multi-million dollar fines - No team penalties EVER.

3, All the emails (and that's just the one's we know so far) showing the NFL's purposely misrepresenting and flat out lies in the run up to the hearing and the lies and misrepresentations in Goodell's explanation are simply a dessert that's available to Judge Berman if he chooses to use them. Remember it's not like he CAN'T use this info, its just that he doesn't have to.

As someone early opined, Its NOT just as simple as the NFL saying section 406 (or whatever paragraph allows the commissioner to be judge as well as arbiter) allows us to do anything we damned want.

 

[GrogansArmy]

every day I read the same thing "it could go their way...NFLPA signed the contract...ironclad!!! Oh no!!"..

what the hell is the matter with all you people??? THIS IS NOT THE SOVIET UNION. I do not care what this damnable corrupt league office says about anything. Eventually they hang, foisted on their own petard..


Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

I hope Brady sues this idiot Goodell and his criminal conspirators for a billion plus dollars. See how that moronic little narcissist likes seeing HIS life flashing before his eyes.

I get what you're saying, but it really depends on the Judge. If the Judge wants to follow the letter of the law then this case IS ironclad - The CBA agreement does allow Goodell to do what he wants regardless of whether its fair or not. We've seen many times where large corporations get away with screwing people because the contract allows them to and the contract was agreed by both parties.

Also this is not a criminal case.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I get what you're saying, but it really depends on the Judge. If the Judge wants to follow the letter of the law then this case IS ironclad - The CBA agreement does allow Goodell to do what he wants regardless of whether its fair or not. We've seen many times where large corporations get away with screwing people because the contract allows them to and the contract was agreed by both parties.

Also this is not a criminal case.

Judges make decisions every day that they wish they didn't have to make. If this case "IS ironclad," then that is how Judge Berman will find.

Personally, I think that Kessler has made reasonable arguments that the CBA was violated and that it is not ironclad.

The fact that the NFL does not feel it needs to offer to "settle," suggests either that it has a strong sense of how Judge Berman is going to find or that it has decided to go down with the ship.

Both sides have had a week to get a sense of where the Judge stands as a result of the conferences with the Magistrate. It looks like the NFL has decided that it's best strategy is to stonewall. I hope the League is either foolish or wrong.

 

[AllstonPatsFan]

every day I read the same thing "it could go their way...NFLPA signed the contract...ironclad!!! Oh no!!"..

what the hell is the matter with all you people??? THIS IS NOT THE SOVIET UNION. I do not care what this damnable corrupt league office says about anything. Eventually they hang, foisted on their own petard..


Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

I hope Brady sues this idiot Goodell and his criminal conspirators for a billion plus dollars. See how that moronic little narcissist likes seeing HIS life flashing before his eyes.

The Constitution only applies to governmental action. Brady's only hope come from the National Labor Relations Act and the case law from it.

 

[Hoodie]

There is a smugness to the NFL's comments that suggest they are confident as to how this will turn out. I hope that I am wrong in that interpretation.

If Berman has in any way signaled that he feels the (absurdly drawn) CBA gives Goodell an "out," no matter how unfair that might be, then this is how I would be acting if I were Goodell. We have to remember that Judge Berman is not being asked to take a view on whether what Goodell has done is "fair," but rather on whether it is permitted by the terms of the CBA. What he's being asked to determine is actually pretty narrowly defined.

The good news is that he's suggested that the sides should "settle," which implies that he thinks there is something to settle. The bad news is that he can bring the hammer down on one side or the other.

My personal view is that Kessler has mounted a strong argument that Goodell has stepped outside the bounds of the CBA, but the fact that the League doesn't feel it needs to offer to settle at this point is worrisome...or it is a bluff.

Goodell has either read Berman correctly or he has decided to go down with the ship.

I would expect the NFL to be smug. That's who they are. I don't think anything they say or the NFLPA says now is an indicator either way.

 

[GrogansArmy]

Judges make decisions every day that they wish they didn't have to make. If this case "IS ironclad," then that is how Judge Berman will find.

Personally, I think that Kessler has made reasonable arguments that the CBA was violated and that it is not ironclad.

The fact that the NFL does not feel it needs to offer to "settle," suggests either that it has a strong sense of how Judge Berman is going to find or that it has decided to go down with the ship.

Both sides have had a week to get a sense of where the Judge stands as a result of the conferences with the Magistrate. It looks like the NFL has decided that it's best strategy is to stonewall. I hope the League is either foolish or wrong.

Thats exactly my point. I think Kessler makes great arguments, however I'm a pats fan and biased. Ultimately it is up to the Judge and we've really no clue which way he's leaning. If he's all about fairness in the workplace, then he's leaning towards Brady. But if he's all about the letter of the law then Goodell is golden.

 

[Deflatemyballs]

Is it just me or is this board full of people with the most defeatist attitudes of any fan base out there? I don't want to single anyone out because I don't mean to personally insult; but at this point we are a very strong favorite and that is according to unbiased lawyers who have no skin in the game. Of course things can change and a judge is not a robot but come on with the attitude around here you would think they have us dead in the water by the sound of some people around here. Even Stephen a smith has changed his tune for crying out loud, people are trying to get in front of this because they know the nfl is absolute screwed. do you really expect an nfl attorney to come out and say "yeah we are really worried Kessler got us"? Be better, guys come on the season is a month away get your game right.

 

[Oswlek]

Goodell either has rocks in his head or he's doubling down because nothing short a complete vindication can repair his reputation.

 

[SVN]

I'm sorry it's too late for me to read all 3 pages of this thread (and I'm sure there will be some great posts that I will be missing, but raising my blood pressure 20 points isn't how I want to end my evening.

THIS is why I feel the judge will have NO option to vacate the suspension, and Brady will have no choice but to refuse any settlement.

The NFL's case rests on THEIR interpretation that Brady "more than likely" participated in a scheme with Patriot employees to deflate footballs and gain an unfair competitive advantage. That argument fails on so many levels that the only reason the Judge won't make a summary judgement will be because the drama of waiting is just to intoxicating to no wait til the 19th. (my birthday, btw )

1. They can't make a reasonable case that footballs were even deflated - Definitely not when main stream science is sued, and EVEN when their own flawed, bought and paid for science was used they couldn't prove that balls were deflated, BTW -they can't even make the case that any competitive advantage was even gained

2. They can't make a case that Brady wasn't anything but cooperative

3. They can't make a case that Jastremski or McNally did anything wrong in the 90 seconds they were alone with the balls.

4. But what CAN be proved is that the NFL embarked on a campaign of malicious deception, misinformation, and outright lies in an clear attempt to infect the public with this misinformation and poison the arena with a smear campaign

Now I know the blood pressure is rising, and I'm being melodramatic and touch hyperbolic with my 4 points. However that being said, I welcome any comment or criticism that can poke holes in the basic premise I am trying to make.

Even if the judge is judge is willing to construe this case very narrowly, and not take on the issue of, "whether anything happened" or "the science of deflation"; there is still documented evidence of the basic unfairness of the NFL's actions, their continued effort to "move the goalposts" as each of their claims are reputed, and finally there is the undeniable fact that NOTHING in the CBA, NFL rulebook, or procedural history comes even close to the draconian punishment that was handed down.

According to this nash guy, they no longer care if the wells report said "generally aware" . The Ahole is upholding the suspension because of his own judgement of brady's credibility. Thats what this guy is saying claimng that the Ahole can do that. That IMO is his main argument, that the arbitrator made a judgement call that on hearing brady that his credibility was questionable.

 

[RayClay]

I get what you're saying, but it really depends on the Judge. If the Judge wants to follow the letter of the law then this case IS ironclad - The CBA agreement does allow Goodell to do what he wants regardless of whether its fair or not. We've seen many times where large corporations get away with screwing people because the contract allows them to and the contract was agreed by both parties.

Also this is not a criminal case.

Not true, I don't know why you think that. Pretty much true for owners, but not for a functioning union.

 

[GrogansArmy]

Is it just me or is this board full of people with the most defeatist attitudes of any fan base out there? I don't want to single anyone out because I don't mean to personally insult; but at this point we are a very strong favorite and that is according to unbiased lawyers who have no skin in the game. Of course things can change and a judge is not a robot but come on with the attitude around here you would think they have us dead in the water by the sound of some people around here. Even Stephen a smith has changed his tune for crying out loud, people are trying to get in front of this because they know the nfl is absolute screwed. do you really expect an nfl attorney to come out and say "yeah we are really worried Kessler got us"? Be better, guys come on the season is a month away get your game right.

You're right of course. I'm trying not to be defeatist but its hard to ignore that for the past 6 months Brady and the Pats have lost at every turn up until this past week. Unfortunately that's made me a bit wary of getting too pumped up by small victories and made me try to figure out how this could go against us so that I won't be shocked if it does. Defeatist mentality, I know.

 

[Oswlek]

According to this nash guy, they no longer care if the wells report said "generally aware" . The Ahole is upholding the suspension because of his own judgement of brady's credibility. Thats what this guy is saying claimng that the Ahole can do that. That IMO is his main argument, that the arbitrator made a judgement call that on hearing brady that his credibility was questionable.

This is laughably pathetic. An arbitrator is supposed to listen to both sides and decide who has the better argument, not strengthen the side he favors. This further solidifies Goodell as irreparably biased and can't possibly be legal... even more so when you consider the evidence he used to firm up his position is a documented lie.

Seriously, this is like bizarro world or something.

 

[patfanken]

I get what you're saying, but it really depends on the Judge. If the Judge wants to follow the letter of the law then this case IS ironclad - The CBA agreement does allow Goodell to do what he wants regardless of whether its fair or not. We've seen many times where large corporations get away with screwing people because the contract allows them to and the contract was agreed by both parties.

Also this is not a criminal case.

I thought I explained just some of the reasons how wrong your original statement was, yet you repeated the same claim that the case is "ironclad" again WITHOUT backing it up in the least.

Do you thing that if you repeat an unsubstantiated claim enough times it will suddenly become true ? Mass, Volin, is that you?

 

[blackglass3]

It's not a defeatist attitude, it's we're getting tired of getting punched in the balls every few weeks. We went from "I want an apology when we are cleared" to "it's time to end the rhetoric we accept all fines and punishment". "I'm thinking there may be a small fine, they aren't finding anything" (Mike Reiss said that in April) to "Patriots and Brady are the biggest cheaters ever!!!!"

Every time something good happens in the press, something much worse follows it up. This transcripts getting released was good for everyone if us tired of seeing Brady's name get dragged through the mud. But I just think it's too little too late. A nutshot is on its way, and I think its this NY judge saying "Sorry Tom, this ain't Judge Doty's house... want a better CBA? Have some conviction next time this comes up and don't bargain it away for no more two-a-days." And honestly, he'd be right to say that...the NFLPA allowed this scumbag to keep this ridiculous power and now we are dealing with it.

 

[GrogansArmy]

Do you thing that if you repeat an unsubstantiated claim enough times it will suddenly become true ? Mass, Volin, is that you?

I was just repeating the word 'ironclad' from a previous poster. I'm not mass or violin or whoever, I'm just a born and raised pats fan hoping everything goes our way but bracing myself if it doesn't.

 

[SVN]

This is laughably pathetic. An arbitrator is supposed to listen to both sides and decide who has the better argument, not strengthen the side he favors. This further solidifies Goodell as irreparably biased and can't possibly be legal... even more so when you consider the evidence he used to firm up his position is a documented lie.

Seriously, this is like bizarro world or something.

Yes , and scarily enough they believe they have grounds to do that. Nash by saying that brady was able to present his case and call his witnesses etc etc is saying that basically we followed procedure of an arbitration. Whether it is fair or not is not for anyone else to judge except Commissioner Ahole and he thinks its fair.
this is like stasiland.
Shudder to think what fake knife they would be twisting if the transcript was not public. Someone from anonymous should hack and expose these guys.

 

[Joker]

heh...WOW...OK, if so many of you are OK with a national campaign to impugn YOUR integrity(by association) through the use of "more probable than not" as a DEFINITIVE STATEMENT OF FACT, then I'm sure you won't mind it when some US circuit court judge rules in favor of the electric company blaming YOU for a gigantic blackout caused by a squirrel shorting out a substation becasue YOU more or less KNEW that squirrel would jump to its death and cause said blackout.

Whooooopee!!!!



And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Every single one of you SHOULD be writing letters to YOUR congressmen asking them WTF in blue blazes is going on and why such a totalitarian jihad is allowed to propagate unfettered due to "contract language". Jeezus krist, when was it that common goddamned sense DIED in this country?

 

[Deflatemyballs]

It's not a defeatist attitude, it's we're getting tired of getting punched in the balls every few weeks. We went from "I want an apology when we are cleared" to "it's time to end the rhetoric we accept all fines and punishment". "I'm thinking there may be a small fine, they aren't finding anything" (Mike Reiss said that in April) to "Patriots and Brady are the biggest cheaters ever!!!!"

Every time something good happens in the press, something much worse follows it up. This transcripts getting released was good for everyone if us tired of seeing Brady's name get dragged through the mud. But I just think it's too little too late. A nutshot is on its way, and I think its this NY judge saying "Sorry Tom, this ain't Judge Doty's house... want a better CBA? Have some conviction next time this comes up and don't bargain it away for no more two-a-days." And honestly, he'd be right to say that...the NFLPA allowed this scumbag to keep this ridiculous power and now we are dealing with it.

The nfl is at the end of their rope. All the facts are out now they have no ace in the hole, nothing in their back pocket. The reporters who reported all the slanted, smearing info to defame Brady are even admitting this is all a sham. I'm not saying it's 100 percent because who knows what the judge will think. But to fully expect the judge to rule in favor of the nfl in light of current circumstances is insanity and absolutely a defeatist attitude.

 

[MagicMarker]

Maybe the NFL is smug because they don't care if they lose. They already have the Patriots picks. They have unlimited funds -- they can keep doing this and doing this. If they lose every once in a while, so what? There's always another case.

 

[Jlaff]

Demonstrating that no ball deflation took place is not the best argument.

Arguing that the league had punishments in place defined in the CBA and were disregarded makes the most sense. In addition, calling out that the league NEVER documented what the actual starting PSI levels were demonstrates that the league had a muddy foundation in the first place.

I wouldn't abandon arguments of that sort, but I personally feel they are better suited to situations where wrongdoing actually took place.

In my 3L opinion, an implied term in the CBA requiring wrongdoing actually take place before a player can be punished seems like the most basic 1L contract law approach, but the simplicity of it doesn't mean it is not an effective argument to make. Wells is a high powered lawyer working at a high powered law office, and he and his team f'd up. I realize Kessler has been effective for the NFLPA thus far, and that he is miles more accomplished than I am, but I worry that in employing his sophisticated, experienced approach he might be missing that basic argument staring him him right in the face. Like Wells, every other lawyer, and most human beings (besides Brady and BB) he's not above making mistakes.

I just hope we don't have to start making threads complaining about a failed strategy employed by Kessler, and how it could have been. From my viewpoint the most effective argument in the court of public opinion has been that no deflation actually took place, and that the NFL disregarded the science of it all (however, not documenting starting PSI would fall under this too). Judges are susceptible to human arguments as well (like that Brady has been the subject of a witch hunt; not that this necessarily fails as a legal argument), no matter how hard they try to pretend they aren't.

Edit: Also, I'm still confident Kessler will take this to the house, just want to see all the bases covered in the 15 pages. Which probably isn't easy either.