Most Complete NFL team?

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Well usually in the post season the great defense beats the great offense when they match up. Great defenses usually can create a TO or two and give their offense a short field to work with and so they can gain momentum. Brady is certainly capable of passing his way through a great defense and being godly like, but with all these minor injuries I keep hearing about with Brady all year, I am starting to get pretty worried about Brady. They've got to win this weekend and get that bye so he can heal some.

No they don't.

Where are you coming up with that?

 

[Kid~Brady]

It speaks volumes to the fact that they don't force turnovers.

Exactly, turnovers are a portion of the stats.

I'm talking solid balance with offense and defense combined. Steelers hands down. Trust me, I don't like saying it either.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Exactly, turnovers are a portion of the stats.

I'm talking solid balance with offense and defense combined. Steelers hands down. Trust me, I don't like saying it either.

Pittsburgh offense is balanced. They are explosive.

Too bad they don't score points otherwise they would be great.

 

[ivanvamp]

Baltimore's offense is as good as the Ravens defense? That doesn't sound right to me.

I didn't say that. I said their offense and defense are almost equally as good (according to this SRS rating, which takes into account a lot of things, including strength of opponent).

Here are traditional rankings for the Ravens' D and O:

Offense: #13 points, #15 yards (so it is better than average)
Defense: #3 points, #3 yards (so it is great)

But where SRS makes its money is that it considers strength of opponent. Here are the rankings of their opponents:

Offense (so their opponents' defensive rankings):
Pit - #2 pts, #1 yds
Ten - #7 pts, #17 yds
StL - #24 pts, #21 yds
NYJ - #22 pts, #7 yds
Hou - #4 pts, #2 yds
Jax - #10 pts, #5 yds
Ari - #17 pts, #19 yds
Pit - #2 pts, #1 yds
Sea - #5 pts, #9 yds
Cin - #9 pts, #6 yds
SF - #1 pts, #4 yds
Cle - #6 pts, #10 yds
Ind - #30 pts, #27 yds
SD - #23 pts, #11 yds
Cle - #6 pts, #10 yds
AVG - 11.2 pts, 10.0 yds

Defense (so their opponents' offensive rankings):
Pit - #20 pts, #11 yds
Ten - #23 pts, #17 yds
StL - #32 pts, #31 yds
NYJ - #9 pts, #27 yds
Hou - #10 pts, #12 yds
Jax - #29 pts, #32 yds
Ari - #25 pts, #23 yds
Pit - #20 pts, #11 yds
Sea - #24 pts, #28 yds
Cin - #18 pts, #24 yds
SF - #15 pts, #26 yds
Cle - #30 pts, #29 yds
Ind - #28 pts, #30 yds
SD - #6 pts, #6 yds
Cle - #30 pts, #29 yds
AVG - 20.3 pts, 22.4 yds

Clearly, they have played teams with FAR better defenses than offenses, almost in every case (SD being the real exception). So they have an above average offense that has done scored the 13th most points in the league against probably the hardest slate of defenses any team in the league has had to face. That means they actually have a pretty darned good offense. And their defense has been very good, but it's been against one of the weakest slates of offenses that any team in the league has had to face.

Plus..all that chart really shows is how unbalanced certain teams are. You're not a complete team if you O scores 10 and D scores 0.

There are, then, no "complete" teams in the league, if you have to be great at both offense and defense. Baltimore is very good on D and, as it turns out, very good on O as well. To me, then, they're the most balanced, and maybe the most complete (though I still give it to GB because their defense is above average and their offense is unreal).

 

[Texxx]

No they don't.

Where are you coming up with that?

Year after year of watching teams with great defenses over achieve. The Steelers have gone to 3 SB's in this decade with great defenses. The Ravens have been up there almost every year as well, barely getting beat by the Steelers mainly because Ben is on the Steelers and not the Ravens.

Ever notice the difference between those Patriot teams that won the SB. They had some of the best defenses in the league in those years. Is it really a coincidence that they haven't won one since than even with the best offense of all time?? When the Pats won their first SB?? Who did they beat?? That great offense of the Rams is who they beat. Again, the team with the great defense and average offense won that game. Of course NE had Brady, but still.

There have been two out of three teams that have won the SB in this last decade alone off of straight defense in the Ravens, Bucs, and the Bears who ended up losing to the Colts where Manning finally got his ring.

Out of all of those great years of Manning's offensive juggernut teams, he only has one ring and what was the main team that he kept losing to in the playoffs?? The Pats who had much better defense.

That great Jets defense beat that great Patriots offense last season as well.


Look at the Saints who had great offensive teams for years, but they didn't win the SB and start making the playoffs every year until they built a good defense behind it.


I think those are enough examples to illustrate my point.

 

[Mogamedogz]

Pitt and it isnt close.

If Pig Ben is healthy, they SHOULD win it all.

 

[ivanvamp]

I think those are enough examples to illustrate my point.

Here are the offensive and defensive rankings of every SB participant since the Pats/Rams SB:

Team: Off (scoring rank, yds rank, oSRS); Def (scoring rank, yds rank, dSRS)

2001:
NE: Off (6, 19, 1.2); Def (6, 24, 3.1) - W
StL: Off (1, 1, 10.4); Def (7, 3, 2.9) - L

2002:
TB: Off (18, 24, -1.0); Def (1, 1, 9.8) - W
Oak: Off (2, 1, 6.3); Def (6, 11, 4.3) - L

2003:
NE: Off (12, 17, 2.1); Def (1, 7, 4.9) - W
Car: Off (15, 16, -1.5); Def (10, 8, 0.6) - L

2004:
NE: Off (4, 7, 6.3); Def (2, 9, 6.5) - W
Phi: Off (8, 9, 2.0); Def (2, 10, 3.5) - L

2005:
Pit: Off (9, 15, 3.8); Def (3, 4, 4.0) - W
Sea: Off (1, 2, 5.8); Def (7, 16, 3.4) - L

2006:
Ind: Off (2, 3, 6.9); Def (23, 21, -1.1) - W
Chi: Off (2, 15, 4.9); Def (3, 5, 3.0) - L

2007:
NE: Off (1, 1, 15.9); Def (4, 4, 4.2) - L
NYG: Off (14, 16, 2.8); Def (17, 7, 0.4) - W

2008:
Pit: Off (20, 22, 1.6); Def (1, 1, 8.2) - W
Ari: Off (3, 4, 4.1); Def (28, 19, -6.0) - L

2009:
Ind: Off (7, 9, 4.4); Def (8, 18, 1.5) - L
NO: Off (1, 1, 11.2); Def (20, 25, -0.5) - W

2010:
Pit: Off (12, 14, 2.5); Def (1, 2, 7.7) - L
GB: Off (10, 9, 3.1); Def (2, 5, 7.9) - W

Average Rankings:
- SB winners: Off (9.6, 13.3, 3.8); Def (7.6, 10.4, 4.3)
- SB losers: Off (5.2, 7.2, 5.5); Def (7.6, 9.6, 2.5)

Interesting notes:
- 10 of the 20 SB teams had an "upper level" offense (4.0 or higher SRS).
- 8 of the 20 SB teams had an "upper level" defense (4.0 or higher SRS).
- Only 2 of 20 SB teams had an oSRS of less than 0.0 (TB, Car). Only 3 of 20 SB teams had a dSRS of less than 0.0 (Ind, Ari, NO).
- Only twice in 10 years has a top 3 scoring offense won the SB (Ind, NO).
- 6 times in 10 years a top 3 scoring offense has lost the SB (StL, Oak, Sea, Chi, NE, Ari).
- 6 times in 10 years a top 3 scoring defense has won the SB (TB, NE, NE, Pit, Pit, GB).
- Only 3 times in 10 years has a top 3 scoring defense lost the SB (Chi, Pit).
- 3 times the #1 yardage offense has lost the SB (StL, Oak, NE); just one time has the #1 yardage offense won the SB (NO).
- 5 times in 10 years the team with the lower oSRS rating has won the SB (NE, TB, Pit, NYG, Pit)
- only 3 times in 10 years the team with the lower dSRS rating has won the SB (Ind, NYG, NO).
- 7 out of 10 SB winners had a higher dSRS than oSRS.

 

[randomk1]

It speaks volumes to the fact that they don't force turnovers.

Yet they are still the #1 D in yards and something like #2 in points allowed.

To me turnovers are mostly a mistake by the other team and you can't count on turnovers...see awesome 2010 NE D.

 

[Kid~Brady]

Yet they are still the #1 D in yards.

To me turnovers are mostly a mistake by the other team and you can't count on turnovers...see awesome 2010 NE D.

Have to agree with this. I'd take a top ranked defense that forces more 3 and out's over a last ranked defense that thrives on turnovers anyday.

 

[randomk1]

What?

Ahhh, yeah, you are a complete team if the offense is 10 and the defense is 0.

Ya might want to watch Baltimore vs Tennessee or Baltimore vs San Diego.

I wasn't bringing up as Baltimore as an example of a complete team. I think their O is average...now that i think on it maybe even below average. It all really depends on how good of a day Ray Rice is having.

And how the hell are you a complete team without a D ? The Chokeartists Colts of the past decade are a fine example of it.

Complete team - 04 pats.

 

[ivanvamp]

Have to agree with this. I'd take a top ranked defense that forces more 3 and out's over a last ranked defense that thrives on turnovers anyday.

I argued this in another thread. Ideally, you'd like a TO-generating defense, because turnovers are by far the stat that most correlates to winning.

However, generating turnovers is more of a crapshoot, even for good TO-causing teams, than is simply getting stops.

But the one bright thought for NE: they do generate a lot of TOs. Most defenses can't do much with GB or NO. About the only way to really stop them is to get turnovers, and this team can do that. Remember the Pats/Rams SB? People forget that the Rams actually had a better defense that year than NE did, at least in terms of yards allowed (they were ranked 6 and 7 in points allowed, but 24 and 3 (NE, StL) in yards allowed). The key to that game was the three (almost 4 if it wasn't for McGinest's goal-line holding penalty) turnovers.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

How can someone vote the Packers as a complete team when they are just a shade higher in rankings on D than the Pats?

The Packers are above all other offenses but thier defense is not even near up to par so they CAN'T be complete.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I argued this in another thread. Ideally, you'd like a TO-generating defense, because turnovers are by far the stat that most correlates to winning.

However, generating turnovers is more of a crapshoot, even for good TO-causing teams, than is simply getting stops.

But the one bright thought for NE: they do generate a lot of TOs. Most defenses can't do much with GB or NO. About the only way to really stop them is to get turnovers, and this team can do that. Remember the Pats/Rams SB? People forget that the Rams actually had a better defense that year than NE did, at least in terms of yards allowed (they were ranked 6 and 7 in points allowed, but 24 and 3 (NE, StL) in yards allowed). The key to that game was the three (almost 4 if it wasn't for McGinest's goal-line holding penalty) turnovers.

With GB and NO in terms of getting them to turnover the ball you better hope the RB drops it or gets stripped or the receiver gets it punched out or the ball is tipped,because Brees has been simply incredible and Rodgers is not far off in terms of avoiding throwing it to the wrong guy.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Pittsburgh. It's a good thing they might trot Rapistberger out there in a game they'd easily win without him anyways. His ankle will probably not be near 100% rest of the year.

 

[EJ Blitz]

Pretty much hands down Steelers. If Alex Smith wasn't Alex Smith, next would be the 49ers.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Pittsburgh. It's a good thing they might trot Rapistberger out there in a game they'd easily win without him anyways. His ankle will probably not be near 100% rest of the year.

Exactly....Someone tell me of how many teams would win games continuously with a 37 year old Charlie freaking Batch at QB

That tells me you have a complete team ....regardless of how much hatred I have for Pittsburgh

 

[ivanvamp]

With GB and NO in terms of getting them to turnover the ball you better hope the RB drops it or gets stripped or the receiver gets it punched out or the ball is tipped,because Brees has been simply incredible and Rodgers is not far off in terms of avoiding throwing it to the wrong guy.

I didn't say it was likely. But read here (The almighty CHFF interception ladder | Cold Hard Football Facts). It's from 2009, but the point is clear: every INT thrown reduces your chances to win dramatically. From the article:

Here's the CHFF Interception Ladder, a look at the record of teams in the playoffs (since 1970) based upon the number of interceptions that they throw (through the 2009 divisional playoffs):
0 INT – 191-51 (.789)
1 INT – 144-119 (.548)
2 INT – 54-119 (.312)
3 INT – 17-78 (.179)
4+ INT – 1-41 (.024)

Brees threw 2 picks this past week against Atlanta. If NE can stay turnover free and just get one INT, it increases their chances of winning significantly. Two picks and NE almost certainly wins. It can happen.

 

[Wax Frog]

I guess I should be routing <sic > against the Saints and Steelers then

 

[stcjones]

Reading over these poll results, I think this is actually very "telling" in how we feel about our team at this point. And....I am amazed at the realism and lack thereof of "homerism". Good job homers! I chose the Saints because I believe they will win it all this year (which Pherein will be happy about). I think that the eventual SB champ will come down to NO vs GB......and that GB's D is susceptible to giving up alot of points. I just do not think the Pats can pull it off this year with that defense and the lack of a deep threat. If Pitt or Balt or whomever else employs the "jam the receivers at the LOS, take Welk and Gronk out of it and let Branch and Hernandez beat us....because they KNOW we can't run the ball".....we are going to bow out early again. I wish we were more COMPLETE....but don't see any way they can pull it together this year.....Hope I am wrong

 

[D-Money]

I would say the ravens.I still think this team will have to play some defense in order to advance into the big game.They have to find a way to get stops.Everyone has taken shots at this defense in the media for their lack of giving up huge plays.They have to start covering well in the secondary and get some pressure on the QB.