Mike Lombardi on Chandler Jones

[SVN]

I like lombardi but he is big pats homer and all his analysis is pro bb and pats . So not exactly very objective most of the time when it comes to the pats. Not saying he is wrong about jones but you can almost predict what lombardi will say about the pats.

 

[BradyManny]

I watched damn near every video up there of the draftees this year. Especially the pass rushers.

The bulk of these prospects rely on just getting up field with purely a speed edge rush. If they don't get around the tackle, they're out of the play. Game over. 95% of their pass rushes put no pressure on the QB, and they're useless outside of maybe forcing the QB to step up slightly. The other 5%, maybe they get a sack and do a dance.

Chandler Jones can bullrush, he can use his arms, and he can overpower people. This will be useful at the NFL level. He's disruptive, and even when he wasn't getting sacks he was being a nuisance.

Go watch these guys and tell me which guy is going to be the best pass rusher in the NFL. Every year there's a half dozen edge rushers who go to the NFL and never really do crap. Jones is not one of those guys.

 

[Fencer]

All those who think that long arms have little advantage should try playing a physical sport some time.

Long arms are a huge advantage in matters that come to the flight of a ball. That was Red Auerbach's great realization contributing to the Parish/McHale trade (which in turn is how "long" became even more important than "tall" in many people's views).

Reach is also important in striking sports, like boxing. And line play certainly has elements of that. But given helmets and so on, you put your whole body into the combat, so it's surely not as important in the blocking battle as it is in, say, boxing.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I like lombardi but he is big pats homer and all his analysis is pro bb and pats . So not exactly very objective most of the time when it comes to the pats. Not saying he is wrong about jones but you can almost predict what lombardi will say about the pats.

I know that I've said this a couple of times already, but it bears repeating: Lombardi publicly offered the exact same opinion of Jones before the Patriots drafted him. You've got your sequence of events wrong, I think.

 

[Fencer]

But all that said --
superior quickness + superior length + competitive strength > superior quickness + competitive strength. :eat2: :deadhorse:

 

[HomerSchooled]

Who are the best pass rushing DEs to come into the league the past two years? If you accept that Von Miller is a LB, would anyone disagree that the answer is Aldon Smith and Jason Pierre Paul, who combined for almost 30 sacks last year?

When they were coming into the league, I was down on both those guys. I thought their athleticism was vastly overrated. Their production in their final college years wasn't particularly impressive. The one thing I underestimated was their length. The build those guys have is rare. Jones has it too.

Physically, Jones is the best of the three pretty easily. They're all within a few tenths of an inch of each other height-wise, and Jones has the longest arms. Despite that, Jones had the best bench of any of them. He also had the best vert, broad, and 10 yd split, and blew them both away in the shuttle and 3-cone (we all know how much the team values those two drills). Combine all that with violent hands, good run D, and a notorious motor, and there's plenty to like.

What seemed to be missing with Jones was production. Aldon Smith dominated as a Redshirt Freshman in the Big 12, and Jason Pierre Paul was a great JUCO player. Jones, playing for Syracuse in the Big East, didn't play that many pass first teams. West Virginia was the only real exceptional passing team in the conference in 2010 and 2011. We should take it as a good sign that Jones was an absolute nightmare for them, managing 6 solo tackles, 2 sacks and a PD in BOTH GAMES. Those WV teams, by the way, were ranked 11th and 20th in the nation at the time. Unranked Syracuse upset them both years. Smith or Pierre-Paul never came close to having games that dominant on that big a stage.

In the end, my only concern with Jones is actually how hard Mayock banged the table for him. The last two DEs I can remember him being that emphatic about were Robert Quinn and Robert Ayers, neither of whom have made much of an impact in the league. Let's hope Mayock's right this time.

 

[mayoclinic]

Who are the best pass rushing DEs to come into the league the past two years? If you accept that Von Miller is a LB, would anyone disagree that the answer is Aldon Smith and Jason Pierre Paul, who combined for almost 30 sacks last year?

16.5, actually. Hard to get any disagreement there, if you exclude Von Miller, and base it on the last 2 years alone.

When they were coming into the league, I was down on both those guys. I thought their athleticism was vastly overrated. Their production in their final college years wasn't particularly impressive. The one thing I underestimated was their length. The build those guys have is rare. Jones has it too.

Physically, Jones is the best of the three pretty easily. They're all within a few tenths of an inch of each other height-wise, and Jones has the longest arms. Despite that, Jones had the best bench of any of them. He also had the best vert, broad, and 10 yd split, and blew them both away in the shuttle and 3-cone (we all know how much the team values those two drills). Combine all that with violent hands, good run D, and a notorious motor, and there's plenty to like.

Although Jones may have the best measurables in most areas, I'm not sure I'd say that he's "pretty easiy" the best of the 3 physically. In particular, he seems to lack a bit of quick twitch burst that JPP and Aldon Smith have. It will be interestin to see how that affects his game. Even Todd McShay, who was a huge Jones fan prior to the draft, seems to feel that Jones is a "notch below" JPP as a prospect.

What seemed to be missing with Jones was production. Aldon Smith dominated as a Redshirt Freshman in the Big 12, and Jason Pierre Paul was a great JUCO player. Jones, playing for Syracuse in the Big East, didn't play that many pass first teams. West Virginia was the only real exceptional passing team in the conference in 2010 and 2011. We should take it as a good sign that Jones was an absolute nightmare for them, managing 6 solo tackles, 2 sacks and a PD in BOTH GAMES. Those WV teams, by the way, were ranked 11th and 20th in the nation at the time. Unranked Syracuse upset them both years. Smith or Pierre-Paul never came close to having games that dominant on that big a stage.

Not sure I completely agree. Jason Pierre-Paul was a 1-year wonder at USF coming out in 2010. Aldon Smith was coming off of an injury in 2011 that affected his production his second year and was a red-shirt sophomore. While Jones may not have put up huge sack totals, there was plenty of film available on him, and the Pats obviously saw enough to feel that he merited trading up to 21.

In the end, my only concern with Jones is actually how hard Mayock banged the table for him. The last two DEs I can remember him being that emphatic about were Robert Quinn and Robert Ayers, neither of whom have made much of an impact in the league. Let's hope Mayock's right this time.

I remember the Robert Ayers love in 2009, and I thought about it when Mayock made his prediction about Jones being the best defensive player in the 2012 draft. I wouldn't discount Robert Quinn yet. He had 5 sacks playing as a sub in 15 games - similar production to what Connor Barwin and JPP did as rookies. I expect him to be a starter next year opposite Chris Long, and with Michael Brockers in the middle he could post some impressive numbers.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Todd Mcshay on ESPN is really high on Chandlers as well.

Said he's a "notch below" Jason Pierre Paul. Heck, for #21 Id take a JPP type of player any day even if he's just a notch below

 

[Snake Eyes]

Todd Mcshay on ESPN is really high on Chandlers as well.

Said he's a "notch below" Jason Pierre Paul. Heck, for #21 Id take a JPP type of player any day even if he's just a notch below

The problem with this is that JPP is a proven beast, an honest comparison would be ones impression of JPP right after he was drafted v. ones opinion of Jones right now. Jones has slightly better measurables than JPP but one runs the risk of looking stupid if they say Jones looks better and he then doesnt turn out as well.

These 'analysts' are entertainers first and foremost.

 

[randomk1]

The problem with this is that JPP is a proven beast, an honest comparison would be ones impression of JPP right after he was drafted v. ones opinion of Jones right now. Jones has slightly better measurables than JPP but one runs the risk of looking stupid if they say Jones looks better and he then doesnt turn out as well.

These 'analysts' are entertainers first and foremost.

I agree...those draft measurables mean **** to me until it's proven.

JPP is just a ******* beast. He is probably like 280 or something and he is very fast,explosive and powerful. And what i probably like the most about him is that he has a very high motor. Easily one of the few top athletes in the game.

The Eagles sure ****ed up on that one.

 

[BradyManny]

In the end, my only concern with Jones is actually how hard Mayock banged the table for him. The last two DEs I can remember him being that emphatic about were Robert Quinn and Robert Ayers, neither of whom have made much of an impact in the league. Let's hope Mayock's right this time.

As I said in another thread - Mayock isn't responsible for what these guys do when they get to the pros though. He has to identify potential. Whether Ayers or Quinn develops - there's a huge factor in there that Mayock can't control, and that's the situation on the given team they end up on, and the ability of the coaching staff to maximize their potential.

In Chandler Jones' case, we know the Patriots coaching staff will be able to get all they can from this guy. So that is less of a factor. If Mayock is right on the talent evaluation, in this case, yes he will be a stud.

 

[patchick]

The problem with this is that JPP is a proven beast, an honest comparison would be ones impression of JPP right after he was drafted v. ones opinion of Jones right now. Jones has slightly better measurables than JPP but one runs the risk of looking stupid if they say Jones looks better and he then doesnt turn out as well.

I like Jones much, much better than I liked JPP as a Pats prospect. It's not just a matter of measurables, it's intangibles and intelligence. Pierre-Paul is not a guy I'd want to teach a complex defense to. (His 3-year struggle to pass the Florida high-school diploma test is well documented.)

 

[HomerSchooled]

Although Jones may have the best measurables in most areas, I'm not sure I'd say that he's "pretty easiy" the best of the 3 physically. In particular, he seems to lack a bit of quick twitch burst that JPP and Aldon Smith have. It will be interestin to see how that affects his game. Even Todd McShay, who was a huge Jones fan prior to the draft, seems to feel that Jones is a "notch below" JPP as a prospect.

I probably should have said he had the best measurables instead of he was physically the best, which is admittedly more ambiguous. I'm not saying Jones is a better prospect than JPP or Aldon Smith, who both went in the top 15. But anatomically speaking, they're all freakishly similar (or similarly freakish), with Jones getting a fairly decisive edge.

Anyway, my point was I didn't see what the fuss was about when JPP and Aldon Smith were coming into the draft, and I was obviously super, crazy wrong. Looking at their combine numbers, nothing seemed exceptional. JPP in particular actually had some pretty hideous bench, vert, broad, and shuttle numbers for a 1st round DE. But what was exceptional about both of them was their body type: 6'4+, 260-270 pounds, 34.5+ inch arms. At the time, I think I undervalued that frame, and it more than anything was what made those two guys special from a measurements stand point. That is an extremely rare build, and Jones has it.

Not sure I completely agree. Jason Pierre-Paul was a 1-year wonder at USF coming out in 2010. Aldon Smith was coming off of an injury in 2011 that affected his production his second year and was a red-shirt sophomore. While Jones may not have put up huge sack totals, there was plenty of film available on him, and the Pats obviously saw enough to feel that he merited trading up to 21.

I don't think it's far fetched to argue that on the surface Jones hasn't had the stats that leap out quite like Smith's 11.5 sacks as a red shirt freshman or Pierre-Paul's 16.5 TFLs in his first year of Div 1 football. I was just raising a concern I HAD immediately upon the drafting. I never suggested it was valid, and some digging revealed some pretty impressive production once put in the proper context. Like you mentioned, Jones certainly has a lot more valuable game tape than either of those guys, having played 3 seasons in the Big East, and like I said, he did have some truly dominant games against a good WV team.

I remember the Robert Ayers love in 2009, and I thought about it when Mayock made his prediction about Jones being the best defensive player in the 2012 draft. I wouldn't discount Robert Quinn yet. He had 5 sacks playing as a sub in 15 games - similar production to what Connor Barwin and JPP did as rookies. I expect him to be a starter next year opposite Chris Long, and with Michael Brockers in the middle he could post some impressive numbers.

Obviously it's unfair to discount Quinn after his rookie season, but he has a long way to go if he's going to match the hype Mayock gave him. His production wasn't troubling necessarily, but it certainly wasn't great. 12 rookies had more sacks last year, and 9 of those had more tackles too.

Regardless, making long term assumptions about Quinn would certainly be premature. My only point is Mayock's seal of approval doesn't assure anything. Really, I don't think we disagreed on anything. We're all psyched about Jones, aren't we?

 

[Snake Eyes]

Anyway, my point was I didn't see what the fuss was about when JPP and Aldon Smith were coming into the draft, and I was obviously super, crazy wrong. Looking at their combine numbers, nothing seemed exceptional. JPP in particular actually had some pretty hideous bench, vert, broad, and shuttle numbers for a 1st round DE. But what was exceptional about both of them was their body type: 6'4+, 260-270 pounds, 34.5+ inch arms. At the time, I think I undervalued that frame, and it more than anything was what made those two guys special from a measurements stand point. That is an extremely rare build, and Jones has it.



I don't think it's far fetched to argue that on the surface Jones hasn't had the stats that leap out quite like Smith's 11.5 sacks as a red shirt freshman or Pierre-Paul's 16.5 TFLs in his first year of Div 1 football. I was just raising a concern I HAD immediately upon the drafting. I never suggested it was valid, and some digging revealed some pretty impressive production once put in the proper context. Like you mentioned, Jones certainly has a lot more valuable game tape than either of those guys, having played 3 seasons in the Big East, and like I said, he did have some truly dominant games against a good WV team.

Obviously it's unfair to discount Quinn after his rookie season, but he has a long way to go if he's going to match the hype Mayock gave him. His production wasn't troubling necessarily, but it certainly wasn't great. 12 rookies had more sacks last year, and 9 of those had more tackles too.

Regardless, making long term assumptions about Quinn would certainly be premature. My only point is Mayock's seal of approval doesn't assure anything. Really, I don't think we disagreed on anything. We're all psyched about Jones, aren't we?

Quinn is pretty similar as far as builds go, Andre Branch is right there as well, though the jury is still out on Quinn the tape I saw on branch left me very underwhelmed.

This weekend I'm going to look into players over the past 10yrs with that prototypical build to see how they've panned out, I suspect many will have not panned out. I'm curious, when you look at Smith's tape what do you see? Why is he having success here?

Aldon Smith Rookie Highlights - YouTube

 

[SVN]

I know that I've said this a couple of times already, but it bears repeating: Lombardi publicly offered the exact same opinion of Jones before the Patriots drafted him. You've got your sequence of events wrong, I think.

As i said i didnt say he is wrong about jones or that he said pro jones stuff only after bb drafted him. Its a general observation of his analysis all the time. Personally,and probably its just me but I find his analysis of Pats throughout the year quite uninteresting because he talks likes a Pats spokesman.

 

[randomk1]

This weekend I'm going to look into players over the past 10yrs with that prototypical build to see how they've panned out, I suspect many will have not panned out. I'm curious, when you look at Smith's tape what do you see? Why is he having success here?

Aldon Smith Rookie Highlights - YouTube

He does a good job of using his hands and that length to his advantage. Some of the OL can't even get their hands on him.

I haven't bothered to look at Smith very closely before but he is impressive.

 

[Snake Eyes]

He does a good job of using his hands and that length to his advantage. Some of the OL can't even get their hands on him.

I haven't bothered to look at Smith very closely before but he is impressive.

I watched and broke down all the plays on that clip, here are my thoughts.

Play 1 (0:13) - Smith is moving with the LT to the side and then Smith shifts and moves in the opposite direction, leaving an open path to the QB.

Play 2 32) - solid bull-rush by Smith, he backs the tackle up several feet, doesnt quit on the play, and edges around the tackle continuing to persue the QB.

Play 3 50) - Smith does a slight studder step and parries the tackles arm to the side, the tackle is now completely off balance moving forward, leaving an open path to the QB.

Play 4 (1:35) - Smith beats the tackle around the edge, makes contact and bounces off, leaving the tackle a step behind, clear path to the QB.

Play 5 (2:00) - Smith runs around the pile to the QB, no OL engagement. No more highlight clips from their Cleveland game, I wonder if he didnt have much success against 32 inch armed Joe Thomas.

Play 6 (2:27) - Smith actually gets knocked on his behind from the OL, who is also moving backwards, creating seperation, allowing a path to the forward moving QB.

Play 7 (2:33) - Smith makes contact while keeping his feet moving, moves to his right when he and the OL were moving to the left, leaving him off balance. The OL was able to make contact without a problem but his body was completely out position in order to effectively block Smith.

Play 8 (3:06) - Excellent bull-rush by Smith, just runs the LT over, clear path to the QB.

Play 9 (3:29) - Solid edge rush, Smith doesnt completely beat the LT but is in position to recover the fumble.

Play 10 (3:40) - a few really good pushes by Smith with really good hand placement on the LTs upper chest, pushing back and up leaving him backweighted, Smith has a nice path to the QB as a result.

Play 11 (4:05) - a quick shift-step to the side and Smith then runs around the pile, no OL engagement.

Play 12 (4:25) - Smith runs in between the OL, no engagement

Play 13 (4:55) - Smith makes contact moving his feet forward, pushing the LT back, Smith makes a move to the side, parrying the push, leaving the LT off balance and moving forward, clear path to Brees.

Play 14 (5:31) - Smith is the first one off the line by far, completely beats the RT around the edge, he doesnt give up, and completely turns the corner to sack Eli.

General assessment - Smith is very impressive, it'll be interesting to see what he develops into but I think he has the tools to become outstanding. He has an excellent jump off the snap and tremendous accelaration around the edge. He uses his hands very well and also has very good body alignment, allowing him issue force effectively but also has his feet moving constantly with his weight always underneath his feet, and doesnt depend on the OL for support but knows when the OL using using him for support, and has the timing to disengage. He also doesn't give up on a play, high motor.

IMO the most important thing here is Smiths feet, he's very good at getting himself into the right position to make a play. I really don't see any instances of him engageing the lineman without them also being able to get to his torso, but he keeps his feet moving while engaged and is good at anticipating when the linemans balance will fail.

If anyone has any thoughts, play by play, I'd be interested in hearing them. Thanks.

 

[VJCPatriot]

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