Is Belichick still a great coach or did Belichick “ruin” Mac Jones?

[PATS16N0]

I’m trying to understand this because I keep seeing this seemingly contradictory narrative reposted by people I suspect are just coping with having been wrong about Mac Jones, who also lavish Belichick with immense praise for his present and future as a Head Coach in the NFL (even as a Patriot Head Coach in the NFL).



I find it difficult to believe, and understand, that both of these things can be true. Aside from the fact I think Mac Jones sucks, does suck, has always sucked, and will always suck, if I was wrong and he had some ceiling as an average, middle of the road, hopelessly mediocre quarterback, was Belichick not even able to bring even *that* out of him? It seems holding the “Belichick is still great” and the “Mac Jones was broken” opinions simultaneously doesn’t make any sense.

It matters because “we’re” apparently deciding whether or not we should keep Belichick going into the future. Yet, if he wasn’t even able to bring Mac Jones’ mediocrity out of him, and instead broke him to worst-quarterback-in-the-league status, that’s very obviously a huge red-flag.

Help me understand, fam. Which one is it?
Can Belichick not get the mediocre potential out of a potentially mediocre quarterback or is he still Darth Belichick, great coach with great winning potential wherever he goes where some talent is available to him?

 

[p8ryts]

Belichick can still coach. Even he can't win with an incompetent QB. Mac has been visibly broken since the Buffalo wind game. Don't no why but it happened.

 

[Pape]

players play.

If a player sucks ass, its on them to get better.

Mac Jones sucks. Its on him to get his head on straight and play better.

 

[PATS16N0]

Belichick can still coach. Even he can't win with an incompetent QB. Mac has been visibly broken since the Buffalo wind game. Don't no why but it happened.

So you think Mac Jones was just destined to suck independently of Belichick?

 

[Pape]

So you think Mac Jones was just destined to suck independently of Belichick?

yes.

before he got here, he never faced true adversity on a field. He had to here. Didn't have the perfect OL. Didn't have the best receivers. Realized other team defenses could be difficult to parse quickly. He's failed in the face of that adversity.

Once the tape showed what Mac Jones was all about, he was done. Hes the same player in y 1 as he is now. A guy who never got any better. But found out the game gets harder when the Opposing D knows your weaknesses and can leverage/exploit them.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Anyone remember in 2021 when the Patriots had the 2nd ranked defense and 6th ranked offense, and the 3rd best point differential in the NFL, and made the playoffs and then melted down allowing seven consecutive touchdowns?

Or how about the next season when they were 8-8 and needed a win to get into the playoffs, but they allowed two kickoff return touchdowns to lose?

Yeah it’s never Bill’s fault though…just wait and see when he gets a decent team, or something.

 

[jdlboot14]

Can't we see that it's both - not as a new phenomenon, but that BB was never a good QB coach.
He NEVER worked with a rookie QB. From Simms, to Kosar, to Testeverde, to Bledsoe, to Brady.
Brady was the ONLY rookie he drafted (via Rehbein's push) that has worked out, and it was Weiss who coached and nurtured Tom.
So when you have 3 dynasty-formed BB disciples (JMD, Patricia, O'Brien) trying to bring up a rookie QB, that hasn't worked either.
BB is a good HC (and defensive), but he's not a good QB coach (and perhaps not a good offensive coach either).

 

[PATS16N0]

Can't we see that it's both - not as a new phenomenon, but that BB was never a good QB coach.
He NEVER worked with a rookie QB. From Simms, to Kosar, to Testeverde, to Bledsoe, to Brady.
Brady was the ONLY rookie he drafted (via Rehbein's push) that has worked out, and it was Weiss who coached and nurtured Tom.
So when you have 3 dynasty-formed BB disciples (JMD, Patricia, O'Brien) trying to bring up a rookie QB, that hasn't worked either.
BB is a good HC (and defensive), but he's not a good QB coach (and perhaps not a good offensive coach either).

If he was never a good quarterback coach that we can collectively thank Tom for winning us six Superbowls. I basically agree with your analysis, but if he can’t develop quarterbacks that’s another huge mark against him for remaining the HC of New England going into the future.

 

[Guts]

yes.

before he got here, he never faced true adversity on a field. He had to here. Didn't have the perfect OL. Didn't have the best receivers. Realized other team defenses could be difficult to parse quickly. He's failed in the face of that adversity.

Once the tape showed what Mac Jones was all about, he was done. Hes the same player in y 1 as he is now. A guy who never got any better. But found out the game gets harder when the Opposing D knows your weaknesses and can leverage them.

I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt last season and even this season too with a new OC, but Mac Jones sucks

 

[Pape]

If he was never a good quarterback coach that we can collectively thank Tom for winning us six Superbowls. I basically agree with your analysis, but if he can’t develop quarterbacks that’s another huge mark against him for remaining the HC of New England going into the future.

this is a great point.

Do the Krafts want to entrust BB, with his current offensive cast, to develop the number 1 or 2 overall pick?

Just had this convo with my brother the other day... and is the main reason why i think his time in New England is most likely over.

 

[Rob0729]

Mac is mentally weak and cannot handle adversity AND Belichick did play a role in ruining him. There were signs when Jones was drafted that he wasn't emotionally mature enough to handle the pressure. There was talk about him being called McEnroe because of his temper and reports that Saban said his biggest flaw with his emotional maturity. I personally underestimated it. It may have been a bigger issue than people thought at the time.

That said, Belichick pretty followed the bad team's handbook on how to ruin a young QB and then some. To give him a special team coach to be his QBs coach in his second year was criminal along with Patricia. He didn't surround him with players to help him and basically asked him to elevate a mediocre cast. When there was a QB controversy last year, instead of trying to squash it, he added fuel to the fire making Mac worry about his job. And of course, Mac started to play scared because he was worried about being benched.

But everything I just wrote about Belichick doing to Mac Jones, he also did most of it to Bailey Zappe.

Ultimately, it is on Jones because this is the NFL and all players face adversity. You gotta get over it.

As for if Belichick is still great? I tend to doubt it. I think he may be just going through the motions to get the record. The last two years, the Patriots on both sides of the ball haven't been the disciplined Belichick teams that they were in the past. It could also be he is just a relic of a time gone past and refuses to adapt to today's NFL and players tune him out more than in the past. Belichick was the greatest of all time. Now I might take a guy like Mike McDaniel over him. McDaniel is a goof, but players seem to love him and work hard for him. And he is definitely innovative on offense like Belichick used to be on defense.

 

[Rob0729]

this is a great point.

Do the Krafts want to entrust BB, with his current offensive cast, to develop the number 1 or 2 overall pick?

Just had this convo with my brother the other day... and is the main reason why i think his time in New England is most likely over.

This is the year to move on. Even if this year wasn't the absolute disaster that it is. They are going to totally rebuild at least the offense. Even if Belichick stayed on, how many more years does he have left? Two? Three? Why build a team in his image to only have him retire when it finally gets back into contention and have a new coach come in and have to revamp it?

 

[Rob0729]

If he was never a good quarterback coach that we can collectively thank Tom for winning us six Superbowls. I basically agree with your analysis, but if he can’t develop quarterbacks that’s another huge mark against him for remaining the HC of New England going into the future.

Brady wasn't the only QB developed under Belichick. You can argue that Cassel, Garoppolo, Hoyer, and Brissett all had better careers than they were probably expected to have. Far better in several cases. Brady was the only elite QB developed under Belichick.

We can argue whether it was Belichick or McDaniels/Weis/O'Brien who developed them. But the Patriots have produced a handful of QBs who succeeded during the Belichick era. Cassel didn't even play in college and got the Patriots to 11 wins and got KC into the playoffs. Hoyer was undrafted and was a starter at one point. Garoppolo got the 49ers to the Super Bowl.

 

[pctronics0072]

I think it comes down to one main thing. Bill does not think offense is that important in the NFL. Bill is wrong. Unfortunately, now he does not have Tom to cover up his delusions.....

Delusions like an alleged coach here thinking he was "important" got cured of the hard way.

 

[Salsalife]

Me personally I want to keep Bill. I just don't want him to have any selection power of offensive players in the draft. I just want him to coach. 4 years has proven he done. God awful. Good to great defensive players thou. Does not miss on them often. I am delusional to think he would ever agree to this.

 

[lancerman]

Ask yourself this, if this was the Jets with the exact same roster from 2020-present and you just pretended Salah and the GM made all the exact same decisions Bill did, would you say the franchise failed the QB? I think most people would be clowning on the Jets saying that they broke another one.

 

[Rob0729]

Ask yourself this, if this was the Jets with the exact same roster from 2020-present and you just pretended Salah and the GM made all the exact same decisions Bill did, would you say the franchise failed the QB? I think most people would be clowning on the Jets saying that they broke another one.

It is funny. People were mocking the Jets in 2021 for how they were going to ruin Wilson. Of course that was before people realized how much of a head case he was, but that was what a lot of people were saying. And you can argue they ruined Sam Darnold.

Ironically, people were praising the Patriots in 2021 as the template on how to groom a young QB. And two years later, a lot of the same people believe the Pats did everything to ruin in in 2021.

 

[203Pat]

No and yes.

I keep saying people regurgitating that ridiculous "Keep Bill as the coach and make someone else the GM" which is a dumb idea to begin with but is Bill even really that good of a coach at this point? His timeout usage, his decisions when to go for it or kick, as well as some odd coaches challenge decisions have all been somewhat questionable since Ernie left. Players like Mac, Jack Jones, Zappe, Uche, Dugger, Damien Harris, and even Chase Winovich all regressed or have played out of position after showing potential early on. He isn't coaching these guys up and putting them in a position to succeed.

As for "ruining" Mac, I believe Bill did ruin him. That isn't to say Mac doesn't deserve a good portion of blame but Bill has done nothing to put Mac in a position to succeed for two years now. Bill tried with his spending spree in 2021 with lukewarm results. Then he completely gutted Mac's confidence in what he was doing with the Patricia experiment then when Mac had the audacity to question what the hell Bill was doing they got into a pissing contest that caused some tension in the locker room. Then this offseason he let Mac's favorite target, and most reliable receiver (who stood up for Mac last year) walk in free agency to replace him with a broken down guy who can't play. He also doubled down on Parker who sucked last year and basically said "Here you go Mac". Mac was set up for failure and has faced adversity from within his own team and he hasn't handled it well at all. Bill screwed him but Mac can't get out of his own way at this point and lacks both the mental toughness and the physical skills to pull out of this tailspin.

 

[*ChungFu*]

Has Mac broken protocol to make a single play that is memorable?
I know he's whined over BBs head, but has he defied him and proven he's got any grit or playmaking ability?

 

[jdlboot14]

If he was never a good quarterback coach that we can collectively thank Tom for winning us six Superbowls. I basically agree with your analysis, but if he can’t develop quarterbacks that’s another huge mark against him for remaining the HC of New England going into the future.

Precisely!
Although, it has worked when he has a good OC and BB "the GM" is hitting on all cylinders.
But, another strike has been the last 5 years of bad misses both in FA and the draft.
So, it may literally be BB the GM that gets BB the coach fired.