Mike Lombardi on Chandler Jones

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Actually, he is a Bill Belichick fan. But I agree with your point.

Before the draft, Mike Lombardi recommended the Dolphins take Chandler Jones with the 8th pick.

It's obvious both will have similiar thought processes as they judge players.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

All those who think that long arms have little advantage should try playing a physical sport some time.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I'm trying to think through the physics of the longer-arms bit, and it's tricky. We have two non-rigid bodies colliding. The guy with the longer arms gets some control over the angles at which the two of them apply force, but his discretion is limited by the need to preserve his own balance.

If it matters so much who hits first, why don't see ball carriers making greater use of stiff arms? Stiff arms really seem to work only when they screw up the defenders angle or balance.

NFL Videos: NFL Films Presents: The Stiff Arm is an NFL highlights video of stiff arms. It seems to me that pretty much all of them either:

• Are against guys who lacked momentum and/or balance for the tackle, e.g. because the would-be tackler had just turned 90 degrees to close on the play.
• Served to increase separation between two players (runner and would-be tacklers) moving in pretty much the same direction.
• Really amounted to batting the would-be tackler's arms away.

None of these undermines the theory that when two guys are facing each other straight-up, arriving first with the hands isn't a big deal.

A couple of thoughts:

- A player might not feel comfortable with the stiff arm if they're not that skilled at using it, some have a better stiff arm than others.
- The runner's goal is to gain yards, not to engage the defender. If the runner puts out his arm a smart defender can just grab onto it and fall, taking the runner with him. Jermaine Cunningham failed to do this when Mark Sanchez game him an arm in 2010.

- Also, it's not just a matter of making contact before the other player, it's making that contact in a manner when they can effectively exert force. This is why I think reaction time and 'launch' are so critical.

 

[Snake Eyes]

All those who think that long arms have little advantage should try playing a physical sport some time.

I've done quite a bit of Judo, and have owned people with longer arms that mine and I've been owned by people with shorter arms. Joe Thomas, one of the best LTs in the league has 32.5 inch arms.

 

[SwedishPat]

A couple of thoughts:

- A player might not feel comfortable with the stiff arm if they're not that skilled at using it, some have a better stiff arm than others.
- The runner's goal is to gain yards, not to engage the defender. If the runner puts out his arm a smart defender can just grab onto it and fall, taking the runner with him. Jermaine Cunningham failed to do this when Mark Sanchez game him an arm in 2010.

- Also, it's not just a matter of making contact before the other player, it's making that contact in a manner when they can effectively exert force. This is why I think reaction time and 'launch' are so critical.

As a D-line/O-line I would say that long arms help a lot for defensive players. You can control your o-line much better if you can reach him first with your arms. You will have a much easier time getting of blocks and make sure the o-line in not holding you. So the big advantage for long arms according to me is when you engage in blocks.

 

[Snake Eyes]

As a D-line/O-line I would say that long arms help a lot for defensive players. You can control your o-line much better if you can reach him first with your arms. You will have a much easier time getting of blocks and make sure the o-line in not holding you. So the big advantage for long arms according to me is when you engage in blocks.

With 'getting there first', who reacts quicker? Who mentally processes the information coming in and then makes a decision on that info the quickest?

Who has better hand/body speed to get into position to exert force? Do they have agile and quick feet, which keep their body in position as the play goes on?

Who has a better understanding of how to exert force against a particular defender, what angles to take on which guy, how to vary their hand placement, etc?

Do they have the physical ability to take advantage of that understanding (functional strength?)? Jon Runyan said the thing that made Michael Strahan so difficult to counter was his ability to seemlessly shift from a bull-rush to an edge-rush, and vice versa.

I can go on and on about aspects I consider vital to a good lineman, and if they're really good in those I don't really care about their arm length, if they successfully played in college and have my key attributes then I consider their arm length good enough. If they're not good with my core competencies I don't think the arm length of a Gorilla will do any good.

 

[mayoclinic]

Both height and arm length can be both advantages and disadvantages. We've certainly seen shorter players with short arms use leverage to their advantage - I like your judo and sumo reference. I specifically mentioned clogging the passing lane / altering passes / reach to the QB because those are areas where long arms simply have an advantage that short arms don't. But the leverage discussion is not so clear cut.

I agree with you that "what is key is what they do with their arms". But from what I can tell, Chandler Jones' ability to use his arms to his advantage is relatively well developed. Mike Tanier of Football Outsiders had this to say about Jones:

Most collegiate pass rushers live and die by their quickness to the edge. It's rare to see a defensive end who excels at hand fighting and placement: the fine art of delivering an initial blow to a pass protector, ripping his arms so he cannot latch on, and getting the hands under the blocker's shoulder pads to steer him out of the way. [Jones] excels at these skills. He disengages from blocks easily and can bull rush or work inside of his defender. These skills allow him to be an effective pass rusher when lined up over an offensive tackle.

The Shutdown 50

If Tanier is right, it sounds like Jones has some idea of how to use his long arms to his advantage when dealing with offensive linemen. We'll obviously find out more about whether this is true over the next 6 months.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one, I believe arm length to be one of the most over-rated attributes of a player. For starters, I've looked at a LOT of footage of pass rushers trying to see these instances where the longer armed player has his arms at full extension and the other player can't touch him and I simply haven't seen it, just about always both players can touch the other.

What is key is what they do with their arms, utilizing them to disrupt the balance of the other player. JPP was very well centered when he batted down those passes, his weight was beneath his feet allowing him to easily extend upwards. He also had good presence of mind but that's a different discussion.

If one player disrupts his opponent's balance, in any direction, the off balance player won't be able to generate much strength and their priority will shift to just trying to remain upright. Much of this could be encompassed in "technique", which is really a whole body thing and only ends in the arms/hands but doesnt begin there, Jared Allen has said "you sack a QB primarily with your feet, not with your hands".

You can see this in play all the time in Judo and Sumo, the ones with the longest arms aren't necessarily the winners. SOOOOOOO much more goes being a good defensive player than arm length, if we were to look over drafts from the past 10yrs I think we'd find quite tons of players who had long arms and all the other measurables who didnt amount to anything. There are also outstanding LTs that have 'short' arms but that doesn't stop them from dominating at one of the positions we're told is most dependent on arm length.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Both height and arm length can be both advantages and disadvantages. We've certainly seen shorter players with short arms use leverage to their advantage - I like your judo and sumo reference. I specifically mentioned clogging the passing lane / altering passes / reach to the QB because those are areas where long arms simply have an advantage that short arms don't. But the leverage discussion is not so clear cut.

I agree with you that "what is key is what they do with their arms". But from what I can tell, Chandler Jones' ability to use his arms to his advantage is relatively well developed. Mike Tanier of Football Outsiders had this to say about Jones:



The Shutdown 50

If Tanier is right, it sounds like Jones has some idea of how to use his long arms to his advantage when dealing with offensive linemen. We'll obviously find out more about whether this is true over the next 6 months.

I certainly hope Jones turns into a beast, I've been warming to him. My initial impression of Jones was based on film I watched of Andre Branch.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Actually, he is a Bill Belichick fan. But I agree with your point.

Well yeah. He worked for BB at Cleveland. They probably share similar philosophical beliefs on football players.

 

[Spergon Wynn]

If Jones is half the player the hype says he is, the Patriots got a steal.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Lombardi is a patriots fan, i dont find his opinions objective enough.

Lombardi gave this opinion long before the Patriots drafted Jones. He didn't suddenly fall in love with him after Belichick drafted him.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Both height and arm length can be both advantages and disadvantages. We've certainly seen shorter players with short arms use leverage to their advantage - I like your judo and sumo reference. I specifically mentioned clogging the passing lane / altering passes / reach to the QB because those are areas where long arms simply have an advantage that short arms don't. But the leverage discussion is not so clear cut.

I agree with you that "what is key is what they do with their arms". But from what I can tell, Chandler Jones' ability to use his arms to his advantage is relatively well developed. Mike Tanier of Football Outsiders had this to say about Jones:



The Shutdown 50

If Tanier is right, it sounds like Jones has some idea of how to use his long arms to his advantage when dealing with offensive linemen. We'll obviously find out more about whether this is true over the next 6 months.

The Tanier observation is interesting because a great deal of the "not as in love" with Jones crowd seems to be centered around the "lack of outside" quickness. Casserly was notable in this opinion.

My guess is that BB is simply not as mesmorized by outside pass rushers as everyone else.

I would endorse this view because against elite offenses, interior pressure in infinately more important. Jones and Hightower would appear to fit this mold more.

 

[celticboy04]

Greetings,
Honestly, I wanted Courtney Upshaw and Whitney Mercillus with this pick. I have watched limited film of Chandler Jones and was not that impressed with him as a pass rusher. But I trust BB's judgement over mine when evaluating players, especially since he spent a tremendous amount of time around Nick Saban evaluating them.

I have heard some compare him to Aldon Smith, JPP, to even Jason Jones. Only time will tell, and I cannot wait to see him take the field!!

Celticboy04

 

[BradyFTW!]

Greetings,
Honestly, I wanted Courtney Upshaw and Whitney Mercillus with this pick. I have watched limited film of Chandler Jones and was not that impressed with him as a pass rusher. But I trust BB's judgement over mine when evaluating players, especially since he spent a tremendous amount of time around Nick Saban evaluating them.

I have heard some compare him to Aldon Smith, JPP, to even Jason Jones. Only time will tell, and I cannot wait to see him take the field!!

Celticboy04

So you drafted Chandler Jones

Physically, JPP and Aldon Smith are excellent comparables for Jones- he actually outperforms both of them.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

I've done quite a bit of Judo, and have owned people with longer arms that mine and I've been owned by people with shorter arms. Joe Thomas, one of the best LTs in the league has 32.5 inch arms.

Long arms aren't the only factor, but they do offer an advantage. If you do not realize that, your powers of observation are shot.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Long arms aren't the only factor, but they do offer an advantage. If you do not realize that, your powers of observation are shot.

Why don't you actually read my posts and offer a counter-argument, explaining why my positions are wrong.

 

[celticboy04]

So you drafted Chandler Jones

Physically, JPP and Aldon Smith are excellent comparables for Jones- he actually outperforms both of them.

Greetings,
I read this a few days ago and one of the links lead me to the Jason Jones comparison. I have not watched a lot of film on him, but one thing I really liked was he looks excellent in run defense. Part of me feels like he will have a so-so rookie season, but his second year in the league he will explode out of nowhere that even casual football fans know who he is (ex. Victor Cruz, JPP)!!

Celticboy04

 

[mrscruff]

I think it's interesting that the Patriots targeted Chandler Jones with a first round grade and chose to trade up to get him. I heard Chandler Jones describe his best attributes as being able to locate the football and his fast hands (in part due to sparring with his brother) and not his considerable athleticism. Because of these qualities I suspect that BB sees this guy as the full package and not a one trick pony. Due to his good hands and mental ability he is IMHO not as much a project as other potential DE to OLB converts and I wonder if BB graded him much higher than recent OLB prospects. Once BB and Peppers Johnson can teach him NFL techniques, including the ability to 2-gap, with those fast hands I think he will be a quality run defender and hopefully a real terror off the edge in the passing game.

His pass rush is not about running around the tackle at breakneck speed as much as using his hands and beating his man with technique. I can't think of anyone better than Andre Carter who I hope is healthy enough to resume his Patriots career for one more year and mentor Chandler Jones a la Alge Crumpler with the tight ends and show the rookie the tricks of the trade and reduce the learning curve for the youngster.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

I think it's interesting that the Patriots targeted Chandler Jones with a first round grade and chose to trade up to get him. I heard Chandler Jones describe his best attributes as being able to locate the football and his fast hands (in part due to sparring with his brother) and not his considerable athleticism. Because of these qualities I suspect that BB sees this guy as the full package and not a one trick pony. Due to his good hands and mental ability he is IMHO not as much a project as other potential DE to OLB converts and I wonder if BB graded him much higher than recent OLB prospects. Once BB and Peppers Johnson can teach him NFL techniques, including the ability to 2-gap, with those fast hands I think he will be a quality run defender and hopefully a real terror off the edge in the passing game.

His pass rush is not about running around the tackle at breakneck speed as much as using his hands and beating his man with technique. I can't think of anyone better than Andre Carter who I hope is healthy enough to resume his Patriots career for one more year and mentor Chandler Jones a la Alge Crumpler with the tight ends and show the rookie the tricks of the trade and reduce the learning curve for the youngster.

It looks like it did. If you listen to his phone call from the Pats, I believe one of the front office guys told him " I told you we were going to get you" or something like that.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I think it is easy to say draft someone to take McGinnest's position when he grew old. Just as many have said draft someone to take Richard Seymour's position. But bothof these players were rare, elite, athletes and drafted IIRC 4th and 6th in their respective drafts.

Drafting at the end of the first round you cannot expect to be able to get one of these rare athletes. Perhaps by a fluke of injury, Chandler Jones fell into the range where he could be obtained,and Belichick lept up to take him. I

know it happened one other time when Vince Wilfork for some reason fell too. Eerily, Vince and Chandler were both drafted with the 21st pick of the First Round.

I respect the scouting opinions of Mike Lombardi, Mike Mayock and Bill Belichick. The Pats may just have lucked into "stealing" a fine playefr, who should have been drafted as high as with the 8th pick, as Mayock advised.

I know that there was a CAP collision the year that they had to let Richard Seymour go, but as I said then, you should never trade a "Foundation" lineman. You will find you just can't replace him as those playing around him will suddenly not look or play as good.

Now that Richard is leaving his prime and he is probably heartily sick of playing for a losing organization, Bill might be able to get Seymour back for a few years before he retires. With the CAP space they have, I think they could just about fit Seymour on to the squad.

Comments anyone???