Let's Get Our DE at 17 or higher if need be!

[West Philly Patriot]

Am I the only one who really likes Cam Heyward? I would happily take him at 28. I think he plays with better strength and leverage then Jordan or Watt. He is very strong against the run and at 6ft5 and 295lbs he has room to get bigger. He also has good hustle, I have seen him run plays down from the backside. Pretty good instincts too. I see a bit of Seymour in him. Maybe I'm the only one? He has some improving to do in his pass rush but hopefully can learn a few extra moves.

I wouldn't mind seeing:

17 - Aldon Smith
28 - Cam Heyward

I could also envisage the Pats doing something like this:

17 - Ingram
28 - Heyward
33 - top pash rusher - Sheard?

then pick up some middle round OL - Fusco or someone and one of the small school wide receivers we have been looking at and take a shot at Romeus. Also sprinkle a few trades in there.

I'm right there with you on heyward and It will reflect in my final mock draft. If you listen to maineman's assessment(which I put alot of stock into) on why the Pass D suffered it makes even more sense. People like to throw Big Sey as the barometer by which all 3-4 LDE's are measured in BB's 3-4.

I believe Cam Heywards numbers and body type are closer to what seymour was in '01 than most others available @ our draft slot. With the exception of total tackles(which are insane for a DT) their numbers are very comparable. For all of seymour's ability to get after QB's he showed very little of that in his 4 years @ georgia. His All-american senior season he registered a whooping 1.5 sacks. Feast your eyes draftniks:

Career Numbers:

Richard Seymour: TOT - 223
Solo - 106
Sacks - 9.5
TFL - 25.5

Cam Heyward: 157
79
14.5
34

Moral of the story Seymour was a run stopping DT, who had the tools for BB and Co. to Mold into the elite 3-4 DE pass rusher he became. It starts with being able to stop the run in this D, but having the secondary ability to also get after the Passer. That is if we really are looking for a seymour type player.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Is Ingram our guy instead? I think there's a distinct possibility, as shocking as it seems.

According to PFT, the 3 teams who are most interested are New England, Miami, and the NY Giants. Miami says he looked 'very fit and explosive,' and that they were 'very impressed with him.' The Pats and NYG are showing 'significant interest' in him.

Mark Ingram worked out for Dolphins on Monday | ProFootballTalk

IF that is the case, I would at least hope that we take someone like Heyward later on, hoping that is of course an option at 28 or 33. He may not be around either. Of course Heyward may somehow (?) be our guy anyway, as BB may be targeting him later on in the round.

Then again, it (Ingram) may all be a smokescreen, but if it is--I would like to know exactly why? Unless it's to make sure that MIA does not pick one of the DE's that we may be looking at? I certainly didn't think that was much of an option for them though, although they do have multiple needs.

One thing I can guarantee--is that we really don't know much of anything

The source says that Ingram looked “very fit and explosive,” and that the Dolphins are “very impressed.”

The Giants and the Patriots also are showing significant interest, according to the source.

A source tells PFT how good Ingram looked and how impressed Miami was; same source tells PFT NYG and NE are hot for Ingram.

TRANSLATION: Ingram's agent just named the next two teams following Miami who are considered to have a "need" for a top RB, this puts pressure on Miami to think they "have" to take him at 15. Miami can't trade down and hope to land him, they can't take someone else at 15 and try to trade back into the late first to get Ingram. Fire sale! Going out of business! Last day for big savings! BUY NOW!

 

[patchick]

A source tells PFT how good Ingram looked and how impressed Miami was; same source tells PFT NYG and NE are hot for Ingram.

TRANSLATION: Ingram's agent just named the next two teams following Miami who are considered to have a "need" for a top RB, this puts pressure on Miami to think they "have" to take him at 15. Miami can't trade down and hope to land him, they can't take someone else at 15 and try to trade back into the late first to get Ingram. Fire sale! Going out of business! Last day for big savings! BUY NOW!

Hey, I didn't know you were bilingual! I'm trying to learn to speak Agent myself. (That link you posted to the scout's confessional of lies was a big help.)

 

[supafly]

A source tells PFT how good Ingram looked and how impressed Miami was; same source tells PFT NYG and NE are hot for Ingram.

TRANSLATION: Ingram's agent just named the next two teams following Miami who are considered to have a "need" for a top RB, this puts pressure on Miami to think they "have" to take him at 15. Miami can't trade down and hope to land him, they can't take someone else at 15 and try to trade back into the late first to get Ingram. Fire sale! Going out of business! Last day for big savings! BUY NOW!

I'm by no means predicting it one way or the other. I just thought it was interesting, as some have brought it up before--although so have I.

I am predicting that we go round and round every single year, only to find out at the end that Belichick likely had a different plan in mind. I'm also predicting that I think absolutely anything is possible, so I prepare myself not to be fooled (yet somehow I often still am)

You could be correct with thinking that it's a lot of BS, no doubt about that. I guess it all will depend on how the chips fall. If we did go this route, then I can't exactly say I'd be totally shocked. Only one man knows who his top 3 likely are, and he is not going to tell us, that is for sure.

I think no matter how it falls, we will have a DE by the mid to late 30's/early 40's if a pick is traded one way or another.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm by no means predicting it one way or the other. I just thought it was interesting, as some have brought it up before--although so have I.

I am predicting that we go round and round every single year, only to find out at the end that Belichick likely had a different plan in mind. I'm also predicting that I think absolutely anything is possible, so I prepare myself not to be fooled (yet somehow I often still am)

You could be correct with thinking that it's a lot of BS, no doubt about that. I guess it all will depend on how the chips fall. If we did go this route, then I can't exactly say I'd be totally shocked. Only one man knows who his top 3 likely are, and he is not going to tell us, that is for sure.

I think no matter how it falls, we will have a DE by the mid to late 30's/early 40's if a pick is traded one way or another.

My "wisdom" (though fun with homophones might suggest an "alternate" word to be submitted in place of the last syllable!) is of the fool me once, twice, thrice ... variety - oh the shame. :eat1:

In this case I recognize PFT is publishing this tidbit in their "rumors" section, they have "one" source who is "knowledgeable" of Miami's interest, and "at the same time" the interests of New England and the NY Giants, which "coincidentally" (nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more say no more ... ) are considered by football intelligentsia to be RB needy and just happen to follow close behind the aforesaid Dolfishies in the draft order - most amazing.

Being of infirm mind and body, and novice victim of many an NFL rumor garnered by our friends in the media, I immediately jump to add Ingram's name to the contact list! Which, as in your own reporting of this juicy and salacious rumor, is entirely appropriate to our discussion - Brit and Seneschal have even made allowance for this reporting using the code "RI" to mean "rumored interest" (and sometimes a suburb of Providence).

All in good fun my friend, with shared enjoyment of the NFL draft spectacle we roll on together! :eat2: Never let it be said that I thought the less of you for sharing a published report, twas your duty to patsfans sir! Well done! Together we shall make interweb history, correctly predicting each Krafty move of the great Belichick himself! (Or not )

 

[VJCPatriot]

In this case I recognize PFT is publishing this tidbit in their "rumors" section, they have "one" source who is "knowledgeable" of Miami's interest, and "at the same time" the interests of New England and the NY Giants, which "coincidentally" (nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more say no more ... ) are considered by football intelligentsia to be RB needy and just happen to follow close behind the aforesaid Dolfishies in the draft order - most amazing.

I believe that the Pats are just doing their due diligence on Ingram. If he lasts till 28, I could well see them pulling the trigger if they like the overall package of skills and value that he presents. But more than likely we will trade out of 28 and draft our DE with our earlier 1st round pick. I don't see the Pats going with another RB until the late 2nd to 3rd round. The talent at RB appears thinner this year as far as impact talents go. I think a versatile threat like Vereen in the 3rd would be more than sufficient as a backup/change of pace back for BJGE who I see as our starter for the foreseeable future.

And before you say there's no way he'll last till 28, consider the case of Steven Jackson. You just never know with the draft.

 

[mgteich]

So, we would all throw something at the TV if we came out the first with Ingram and a DE (Watt, Jordan, Wilkerson, or Heyward)?

 

[jays52]

I absolutely would turn green, split my pants (especially in the crotchal region) and hurl my couch through a wall if that happened. Ingram already plays for the Pats. He just has predator dreads and wears 42.

 

[Brady2Welker]

I absolutely would turn green, split my pants (especially in the crotchal region) and hurl my couch through a wall if that happened. Ingram already plays for the Pats. He just has predator dreads and wears 42.

Lawfirm isn't as good as Ingram in terms of burst speed, but you're right they're similar enough to not warrant spending a first round pick on him.

 

[mgteich]

I still don't get it. We are talking about getting a DE in the 14-25 range plus Ingram.

THREE SET OF EVALUATIONS OF INGRAM

1) He's one of the top prospect in this draft. Of course, he would be s STEAL if Belichick drafted him in the 17-25 range. Ingram would likely be a great improvement to the 2011-2014 patriots. Watt or Jordan or Wilkerson may be the choice, but we should trade up to get a second pick to draft Ingram.

2) Ingram is by far one of the top RB prospects in this draft and well worth a pick in 17-25. He would be an upgrade over Green-Ellis as our #1. Besides, we need 2 (not one) starting running backs, with Woodhead as the 3rd down back. Ingram would be VALUE and a solid pick in the 17-25 range.

3) The patriots have one of the best runniong back situations in the game, with Green-Ellis and no number two or number three. Besides, running backs are a dime a dozen. Belichick does so well at drafting running backs that I'm sure that a 3rd or 4th rounder is just as likely to succeed as Ingram.

A REALITY CHECK
Running backs are difficult to project. HOWEVER, there is every reason to believe that Ingram is better than those avialable later. Personally, I think that there are better values at other positions. HOWEVER, if I knew that Light was re-signed and that Belichick had no intention of drafting an OLB early, Ingram would certainly go up in my thinking as a possibility in the mid first.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

A REALITY CHECK
Running backs are difficult to project. HOWEVER, there is every reason to believe that Ingram is better than those avialable later. Personally, I think that there are better values at other positions. HOWEVER, if I knew that Light was re-signed and that Belichick had no intention of drafting an OLB early, Ingram would certainly go up in my thinking as a possibility in the mid first.

Other things to consider.

1.) Ingram ran behind a wall of beasts during his time at Alabama. OT Smith and OG Johnson have been drafted already and OT Carpenter will be drafted this year and the C Vilidos OG Jones will be drafted high next year. (I hope we get Jones in next year;s draft. He will only be a junior, but I think he will come out early.) I am not sure we have that kind of run blocking talent on our O Line.

2.) RB by committee. Ingram has always needed relief and worked well in a RB by committee. Seems like he would fit in perfectly with Green and Woodhead.

3.) Blitz pick up. Ingram is willing but didn;t have a lot of success in this area in college. I doubt BB will allow any RB on the field that can;t stand up a blitzing defender.

4.) Injuries. Ingram was injured to some degree his entire career at Alabama with his junior season being the most serious. After two seasons with banana boy Taylor, do we really need another banana boy on the team?

Bottom line is Ingram has the wiggle and power andf burst to be very special in our offense and the fact that Green and Woodhead would help limit his carries means he could stay healthy longer. However the fact remains Ingram is not a three down back and BB prefers to take three down players in the first round of the draft.

 

[dryheat44]

Oh, I'll just go ahead and say it: Ingram was the second-best back at Alabama last year. He's good, very good. I like his vision and running style. But I think the O-line deserves most of the credit for his success.

 

[patfanken]

A REALITY CHECK
Running backs are difficult to project. HOWEVER, there is every reason to believe that Ingram is better than those avialable later. Personally, I think that there are better values at other positions. HOWEVER, if I knew that Light was re-signed and that Belichick had no intention of drafting an OLB early, Ingram would certainly go up in my thinking as a possibility in the mid first.

No, there are MANY who think there are several others who would be better RB picks for the Pats than Ingram.

You can Book it that Light will be back. He is the current Bruschi clone, and will get his 2 year deal. While he has his limitations, he is STILL better than most starting LTs. Dont forget that the best rookie RB last season wasn't drafted at all.

 

[Off The Grid]

Other things to consider.

1.) Ingram ran behind a wall of beasts during his time at Alabama. OT Smith and OG Johnson have been drafted already and OT Carpenter will be drafted this year and the C Vilidos OG Jones will be drafted high next year. (I hope we get Jones in next year;s draft. He will only be a junior, but I think he will come out early.) I am not sure we have that kind of run blocking talent on our O Line.

2.) RB by committee. Ingram has always needed relief and worked well in a RB by committee. Seems like he would fit in perfectly with Green and Woodhead.

3.) Blitz pick up. Ingram is willing but didn;t have a lot of success in this area in college. I doubt BB will allow any RB on the field that can;t stand up a blitzing defender.

4.) Injuries. Ingram was injured to some degree his entire career at Alabama with his junior season being the most serious. After two seasons with banana boy Taylor, do we really need another banana boy on the team?

Bottom line is Ingram has the wiggle and power andf burst to be very special in our offense and the fact that Green and Woodhead would help limit his carries means he could stay healthy longer. However the fact remains Ingram is not a three down back and BB prefers to take three down players in the first round of the draft.

Well said, sir.

I think very highly of Ingram, but the best Backs ~ Barry Sanders?? ~ aren't winning any Championships if the O Line can't Block...

...Whereas the cheapest late round Backs and Free Agents ~ Terrell Davis...Arian Foster...Priest Holmes~ can accomplish GREAT THINGS behind a STRONG O Line ~ or a smart, talented, and well trained one, thank you, Alex Gibbs.

It All Starts In The Trenches, Baby.

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

Oh, I'll just go ahead and say it: Ingram was the second-best back at Alabama last year. He's good, very good. I like his vision and running style. But I think the O-line deserves most of the credit for his success.

That may be true, but doesn't mean Ingram isn't worth a 1st round pick nor does it mean he won't be a very productive NFL RB. He's going to be a great player, don't let your preference for not taking a RB early cloud your judgement.

 

[supafly]

That may be true, but doesn't mean Ingram isn't worth a 1st round pick nor does it mean he won't be a very productive NFL RB. He's going to be a great player, don't let your preference for not taking a RB early cloud your judgement.

I have seen some of the 'ratings' systems (not mock drafts, but overall ratings of first round talent) that still have Mark Ingram as one of the top 10 ranked players overall in the draft.

I don't know if he's on our radar or not, as we seem to have done pretty well with the running back by committee approach. I cannot predict if that was because we did not have a 'lead' back (before BJGE this past yr), if it had anything to do with the failure of the Maroney experiement, or if BB simply felt that was the best approach.

I tend to believe that he felt that was the best approach with the RB's that we had on the roster, and that was b/c we had several older vets, and he himself has admitted on his mic'ed up clips that BJGE doesn't exactly have great breakaway speed. I think if the Maroney pick had worked out better, that we wouldn't have seen quite as much RBBC approach--as seen when he rode Cory Dillon like a workhorse. I still believe that he is looking for another option at lead back, someone with a bit more breakaway speed, and will pick a RB in the first 3 rounds.

Whether or not Belichick sees value with Ingram in round one remains to be seen, but I think we all agree that there could very well be better value in the later rounds at the RB position, and that DE 'should' be the pick early.

The problem with that thinking is that we often 'think' we know what's best, much to the dismay of our head coach--who tends to think along the totally opposite lines much of the time. With Belichick, one can expect him to do what HE thinks is best...and that could mean anyone from A to Z, all options included.

In the meantime, it's fun to speculate and guess; is this the year when it should go according to how we see it? Or will history once again show that the master that is BB has a much better overall evaluation than we could ever hope to have?

 

[Off The Grid]

Or will history once again show that the master that is BB has a much better overall evaluation than we could ever hope to have?

There is no arguing that Coach Bill The Mad is the best of them all.

No fresh History is needed to support that.

Likewise, it is equally irrefutable: Coach Bill The Mad has made some flat out STUPID moves.

Last of all, he has made some seriously dubious decisions, which leave some room for debate.

It's the nature of the beast that we suspect we can improve on what's being done, even by a Master like Coach Bill The Mad, regardless of how unfounded that belief may be.

But I, for one, am gratefull that things are in his hands...and hope that they will be for a long time, yet.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Oh, I'll just go ahead and say it: Ingram was the second-best back at Alabama last year. He's good, very good. I like his vision and running style. But I think the O-line deserves most of the credit for his success.

I like Ingram but I agree you have to factor the OL. I'd much prefer to go with Vereen in the 3rd this year. I'm not sure how much of an upgrade Ingram would be over BJGE. I'd say no earlier than 28 or 33 would I consider Ingram. We have bigger needs and this is THE DRAFT to get mammoth, athletic 300 lb type linemen.

 

[MaineMan]

I have seen some of the 'ratings' systems (not mock drafts, but overall ratings of first round talent) that still have Mark Ingram as one of the top 10 ranked players overall in the draft.

I don't know if he's on our radar or not, as we seem to have done pretty well with the running back by committee approach. I cannot predict if that was because we did not have a 'lead' back (before BJGE this past yr), if it had anything to do with the failure of the Maroney experiement, or if BB simply felt that was the best approach.

I tend to believe that he felt that was the best approach with the RB's that we had on the roster, and that was b/c we had several older vets, and he himself has admitted on his mic'ed up clips that BJGE doesn't exactly have great breakaway speed. I think if the Maroney pick had worked out better, that we wouldn't have seen quite as much RBBC approach--as seen when he rode Cory Dillon like a workhorse. I still believe that he is looking for another option at lead back, someone with a bit more breakaway speed, and will pick a RB in the first 3 rounds.

Whether or not Belichick sees value with Ingram in round one remains to be seen, but I think we all agree that there could very well be better value in the later rounds at the RB position, and that DE 'should' be the pick early.

The problem with that thinking is that we often 'think' we know what's best, much to the dismay of our head coach--who tends to think along the totally opposite lines much of the time. With Belichick, one can expect him to do what HE thinks is best...and that could mean anyone from A to Z, all options included.

In the meantime, it's fun to speculate and guess; is this the year when it should go according to how we see it? Or will history once again show that the master that is BB has a much better overall evaluation than we could ever hope to have?

I think you're headed in a good direction here. It might be worthwhile to analyze this through the sequence of historical "events." Looking back, I'm not sure how much the RBBC approach was a deliberate strategic move. It may have been something that simply emerged out of the circumstances.

Up through 2005, BB (Weis?) had used a feature back approach with Smith, then Dillon. Maroney was drafted in '06, presumably to be the 32-year-old Dillon's successor. They split carries fairly evenly in '06, a situation that apparently did NOT make Dillon happy and he more or less quit after the season.

Sidebar: the Pats were still using a FB (Heath Evans) in '05, '06 and even some in '07 and Kyle Eckel was picked up as a UDFA out of Navy in '07 so it might be reasonable to think that the FB position was still in the plan going forward at that point.

In 2007, a number of circumstances changed significantly. McDaniels officially took over the offense. Welker and Moss arrived. Spreading the ball around, especially to TEs, seemed to be de-emphasized a bit. Morris was brought in, presumably as Maroney's backup, but then (IIRC) Maroney was injured and couldn't completely assume a feature back role in his 2nd season. So, it became, by default a committee of Maroney/Morris/Faulk/Evans/Eckel with the passing game taking even more of the lead offensive role "to set up the run."

In 2008, LaMont Jordan was added (and BGE). Brady went down and was followed shortly by Maroney (only played in 3 games). So, the default committee became Morris (leading rusher)/Faulk/Jordan/BGE (with Heath Evans being the forgotten man).

Now, one might think that BB would have considered drafting/acquiring a better (more durable) feature RB in 2009. But who might that have been? I don't remember what FAs were available or what RBs changed teams via trade that off-season, but in the draft:

1, #12 - Moreno
--- BB traded down from #23 and then (infamously) out of the 1st altogether.
1, #27 - Donald Brown (not so much)
1, #31 - Beanie Wells (not so much)
--- BB traded up from #47 in rd-2 to get Brace and then Butler.
2, #53 - LeSean McCoy (okay, we missed on this one)

After that:
3, #65 - Shonn Greene (BB did get Vollmer a few picks earlier)
3, #74 - Glen Coffee
4, #111 - Mike Goodson
4, #129 - Andre Brown
Fourteen RBs draft after this, of which only Ringer, Jennings and Stephens-Howling have made any real contributions. Plus UDFA Arian Foster, of course.

So, Fred Taylor replaced Jordan for 2009. Maroney, even healthy, couldn't really cut it as a feature back, so it was the committee again with Morris, Taylor, Faulk and BGE (who didn't show as much as in 2008).
-
Similar situation in the 2010 draft - who could BB have taken to become the new feature back?

1, #9 - Spiller (ummmm)
1, #12 - Matthews
--- BB traded down twice from the #22, eventually taking McCourty at #27
1, #30 - Best (has maybe already ruined his career playing with turf-toe)
2, #36 - McCluster (we eventually got Woody)
--- BB took Gronkowski at #42
2, #51 - Gerhart (might have been nice, but not a feature back)
--- BB took Cunningham at #53
2, #58 - Ben Tate (on IR all season)
2, #59 - Montario Hardesty (on IR all season)
--- BB took Spikes at #62
After that:
4, #112 - Joe McKnight
6, #173 - Anthony Dixon
Plus (only) 4 more RBs, the best of whom might be James Starks. And then, Of course, Blount and Ivory as UDFA.

The point being that, it's entirely possible that BB has wanted to get out of the RBBC racket and back to a feature back approach for a couple years, but simply hasn't had a reasonable opportunity to do so, at least through the draft.

Maybe this is the year. It might not be Ingram at #17, but it could be Leshoure (or whoever) at #33.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Your nice little recap just shows how treacherous it is drafting RBs. Half of those players you named are either busts, injury prone, or marginal NFL RBs at best. Jamaal Charles is arguably the best RB to come out of the 2008 draft and he wasn't taken until pick #73 in the 3rd round.

For now I think the RBBC approach is the most sensible one for the modern game. Runningbacks just wear down to fast otherwise. A nice complement for BJGE is a need. Woodhead with his quickness and shiftiness makes an ideal 3rd down RB, but he doesn't have the size to run between the tackles and take the beating of too many carries. The Pats essentially need a #2 RB who has the upside to maybe be a feature back after some training.

The Saints lost both Ivory and Thomas shortly before the playoffs started. You can't tell me that didn't put a damper on their playoff hopes. You really can't account for injury by the Patriots do need more quality depth at the RB position.

The curious thing about DE in this year's draft is I could see up to 8 DL carrying 1st to early 2nd round grades, 2 of them being DTs, the other defensive ends. So the Pats are in an ideal postion to get 1 or even 2 of them. Who BB prefers is a mystery but I've made my opinion clear that I'd like to take a chance on Watt who could turn into a serious matchup weapon on defense for the Patriots. In particular on passing downs/3rd downs which has been an achilles heel of the D as of late.

The point being that, it's entirely possible that BB has wanted to get out of the RBBC racket and back to a feature back approach for a couple years, but simply hasn't had a reasonable opportunity to do so, at least through the draft.

Maybe this is the year. It might not be Ingram at #17, but it could be Leshoure (or whoever) at #33.