Let's Get Our DE at 17 or higher if need be!

[VJCPatriot]

the best value lies with wilkerson......and the pats don't need to move up to get him.......watt is not worth moving up for......jordan is not worth moving up for.

I see OT's like feguson pushing watt or jordan around pretty easily......I don't see them having the same success against wilkerson

Do you mean Wilkerson at #17? Because I can easily see scenarios where he doesn't last till #28.
In any case Wilkerson strikes me more of a Ty Warren type than a Seymour.
He'll be a solid run stuffer but don't count on him to collapse the pocket or make the QB throw any earlier than he wants to.

Watt is an athletic freak who projects to be able to do both and he hasn't even fully grown into his frame yet.
Get him into the Pats strength and conditioning program and by year 2 we could be looking at the next Julius Peppers.
He can be the type of guy who commands double teams like Seymour used to.
A small trade up to 12-13 to make sure that happens, yeah I can see it. But I wouldn't want to pay two 1sts to move up.

With Stroud in the fold as a run stuffer for the short term. I don't really see as much value in getting a Ty Warren clone.
I'd rather get the guy who can potentially do everything and has a relentless motor along with rare length and athleticism.
How many 6'6 290 lb guys can you name with a 37" vertical and a 6.88 3 cone? Not to mention Watt had 34 bench reps at the Combine which was among the leaders for that category so I think the lack of strength accusations are unfounded. Just watch the tape closer, the guy has powerful violent hands. He can swat down RBs with just one of his mitts. How many other linemen in the NFL do you see making that kind of play?

 

[bucky]

What are you looking for?

I'm looking for a RDE who is equally good at stuffing the run and rushing the passed and will improve the pass rush on 3rd down. Regardless of which player that is (we all have our opinions), that is worth moving up for. However, I would not be excited about getting a run-stuffing DE who will be going off the field on 3rd downs. Those guys can be found in later rounds and we already have more of those than we need.

 

[mgteich]

There are indeed scenarios where Wilkerson is available at 28. There are also those where Cam Newton is available at 28.

Do YOU think that Wilkerson will be available at 28? If we miss on a DE at 17, I suspect that we will be choosing between Heyward, Ballard and an OT at 28.

Do you mean Wilkerson at #17? Because I can easily see scenarios where he doesn't last till #28.
In any case Wilkerson strikes me more of a Ty Warren type than a Seymour.
He'll be a solid run stuffer but don't count on him to collapse the pocket or make the QB throw any earlier than he wants to.

Watt is an athletic freak who projects to be able to do both and he hasn't even fully grown into his frame yet.
Get him into the Pats strength and conditioning program and by year 2 we could be looking at the next Julius Peppers.
He can be the type of guy who commands double teams like Seymour used to.
A small trade up to 12-13 to make sure that happens, yeah I can see it. But I wouldn't want to pay two 1sts to move up.

With Stroud in the fold as a run stuffer for the short term. I don't really see as much value in getting a Ty Warren clone.
I'd rather get the guy who can potentially do everything and has a relentless motor along with rare length and athleticism.
How many 6'6 290 lb guys can you name with a 37" vertical and a 6.88 3 cone? Not to mention Watt had 34 bench reps at the Combine which was among the leaders for that category so I think the lack of strength accusations are unfounded. Just watch the tape closer, the guy has powerful violent hands. He can swat down RBs with just one of his mitts. How many other linemen in the NFL do you see making that kind of play?

 

[VJCPatriot]

There are indeed scenarios where Wilkerson is available at 28. There are also those where Cam Newton is available at 28.

Do YOU think that Wilkerson will be available at 28? If we miss on a DE at 17, I suspect that we will be choosing between Heyward, Ballard and an OT at 28.

For Wilkerson to last to 28? IF there's an early run on DE and we pass at #17 then he could be gone by 28. Probably a 50/50 chance. Then we'll have to hope Heyward isn't gone either. For a priority need, I don't like to 'hope things fall right' I like to 'secure the prize'.

If the Patriots trade out of 17 for a bounty of picks then I can see a slight trade up from 28 to get one of the remaining quality DEs happening. But I think the rumors have legs. The Pats will likely be trading out of 28. They will make their move with 17 to get their guy. That could mean just staying Pat if things fell perfectly, but I think a slight trade up will be needed. A couple of teams ahead of us could be coveting the same prospect.

 

[patchick]

There are indeed scenarios where Wilkerson is available at 28. There are also those where Cam Newton is available at 28.

Do YOU think that Wilkerson will be available at 28? If we miss on a DE at 17, I suspect that we will be choosing between Heyward, Ballard and an OT at 28.

FWIW, I think he was agreeing with you...he said he saw scenarios where Wilkerson didn't last to 28. (Personally, I'd be very surprised if he lasted that long.)

 

[mgteich]

My bad. Careful reading is a lost art.

FWIW, I think he was agreeing with you...he said he saw scenarios where Wilkerson didn't last to 28. (Personally, I'd be very surprised if he lasted that long.)

 

[BoSoxJim]

For Wilkerson to last to 28? IF there's an early run on DE and we pass at #17 then he could be gone by 28. Probably a 50/50 chance. Then we'll have to hope Heyward isn't gone either. For a priority need, I don't like to 'hope things fall right' I like to 'secure the prize'.

If the Patriots trade out of 17 for a bounty of picks then I can see a slight trade up from 28 to get one of the remaining quality DEs happening. But I think the rumors have legs. The Pats will likely be trading out of 28. They will make their move with 17 to get their guy. That could mean just staying Pat if things fell perfectly, but I think a slight trade up will be needed. A couple of teams ahead of us could be coveting the same prospect.

my 4th post and all i seem to be doing is disagreeing with people. oh well.

i've seen a lot of talk about wilkerson but am not as high on him as some seem to be. i just don't feel comfortable with the level of competition he's faced. the best teams he played were penn st. and uconn. the rest were relative scrubs (and wasn't facing a bunch of top 10 or 20 OL).

i'm not saying he won't go in the 1st round. but i feel jordan is a better fit for the pats (maybe the assumption is that he will be gone by 17).

the pats have spent the last couple drafts rebuilding. now they are a couple pieces on defense from being a top 5 unit for years to come.

i certainly don't think they will go for OL in the 1st. not BB's philosophy. the only reason he took mankins at 32 was that he didn't know if he'd be there at 64 (he was a 3rd round prospect with some having him late 2nd).

 

[BoSoxJim]

With Stroud in the fold as a run stuffer for the short term. I don't really see as much value in getting a Ty Warren clone.

I'd rather get the guy who can potentially do everything and has a relentless motor along with rare length and athleticism.

How many 6'6 290 lb guys can you name with a 37" vertical and a 6.88 3 cone? Not to mention Watt had 34 bench reps at the which was among the leaders for that category so I think the lack of strength accusations are unfounded. Just watch the tape closer, the guy has powerful violent hands. He can swat down RBs with just one of his mitts. How many other linemen in the NFL do you see making that kind of play?

well the bench press really has little bearing on how effective a DE can be. but i think the questions about strength can be blamed on poor technique. watt plays too high at times and gets out-leveraged. watch the rose bowl game against cannon for an example.

if jordan isn't available at 17 i wouldn't be opposed to the pats taking watt. i'm sure they could coach him up.

 

[supafly]

FWIW, I think he was agreeing with you...he said he saw scenarios where Wilkerson didn't last to 28. (Personally, I'd be very surprised if he lasted that long.)

I have had a feeling for a couple weeks where he does not last until 28 either, and I can't say I'd be shocked if he was taken in the top 20.

Just a hunch though--like anyone else.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

my 4th post and all i seem to be doing is disagreeing with people. oh well.

i've seen a lot of talk about wilkerson but am not as high on him as some seem to be. i just don't feel comfortable with the level of competition he's faced. the best teams he played were penn st. and uconn. the rest were relative scrubs (and wasn't facing a bunch of top 10 or 20 OL).

i'm not saying he won't go in the 1st round. but i feel jordan is a better fit for the pats (maybe the assumption is that he will be gone by 17).

the pats have spent the last couple drafts rebuilding. now they are a couple pieces on defense from being a top 5 unit for years to come.

i certainly don't think they will go for OL in the 1st. not BB's philosophy. the only reason he took mankins at 32 was that he didn't know if he'd be there at 64 (he was a 3rd round prospect with some having him late 2nd).

When NE's scouts work the MAC and watch a prospect like Wilkerson going against Penn State and UConn, there's no guarantee he's working against a player carrying a draftable grade - you take pot luck. However, when they watch him playing in the MAC week in, week out, they see him going against an OT from Ohio, they will know if that same OT was blocking Cameron Heyward earlier when Ohio played Ohio State. There's a nice basis for comparison.

It works the same for Kent State or Buffalo or whomever in the MAC since Mid-Majors are usually playing "up" in their out of conference schedule. By the time Wilkerson has played three seasons for Temple, he's been tested against BCS studs and against MAC peers who played against other BCS studs. The level of competition just doesn't scare me for Mid-Major players over the long haul, they may not play an SEC schedule each week, but there's more than enough information to grade out individual talent - which is why Wilkerson is in the conversation for round one. He's not an instant starter as a rookie, but few DL are, most work in a rotation with a fading veteran like Marcus Stroud or Gerard Warren. Seymour did, Ty Warren did, Vince Wilfork did. If the basic material is there, NE will bring him along - it's not as if he is a Mid-Major, Fresno State Tackle moved inside to a new position at Guard and expected to protect the NE franchise ...

 

[supafly]

my 4th post and all i seem to be doing is disagreeing with people. oh well.

i've seen a lot of talk about wilkerson but am not as high on him as some seem to be. i just don't feel comfortable with the level of competition he's faced. the best teams he played were penn st. and uconn. the rest were relative scrubs (and wasn't facing a bunch of top 10 or 20 OL).

i'm not saying he won't go in the 1st round. but i feel jordan is a better fit for the pats (maybe the assumption is that he will be gone by 17).

the pats have spent the last couple drafts rebuilding. now they are a couple pieces on defense from being a top 5 unit for years to come.

i certainly don't think they will go for OL in the 1st. not BB's philosophy. the only reason he took mankins at 32 was that he didn't know if he'd be there at 64 (he was a 3rd round prospect with some having him late 2nd).

First off, don't worry about respectful disagreeing, it's a common thing. One of the things I have learned is that you will at some point--get into a pissing match or two, but treating people with respect and valuing their opinion goes an awful long way. We're all basically on the same side, as it's March, and we're still following our team like crazed idiots. We're all obviously pretty hardcore about it, so it is a good place to relax, speak your mind, make some friends, and learn--as there are a lot of people with good knowledge.

The point you make about Wilkerson's days at Temple is a valid one, as I have thought of it myself before too. One thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of good players who come from small schools. The same case you make for Wilkerson not having good enough competition, can be said about a number of decent players. Guys like Jerry Rice, etc. The good example that comes to mind here is Vollmer coming from Houston (maybe not the 'exact' same, but at least comparable). He obviously didn't take on the best that division 1 had to offer, but still has excelled pretty well. Even guys like Edelman or Roethlisberger have done well since coming from the MAC.

Also, when talking of their schedule, they beat up on UConn decently, 30-16, and hung in there damn well against then ranked #23 Penn St, losing 22-13.

We're talking about a team that was 8-2 at one point, and made dramatic improvements overall, and mainly on defense. If anything, I think they need help on the other side of the ball. From what I understand, their HC installed a newer defense that they really responded well to, as the ended up 16th overall in points allowed, giving up about 19 a game, which isn't too bad for college ball.

I like Wilkerson's athleticism (played HS basketball), and his size (6'-5" 305--315). I like the fact that he made a nice transition to the 3-4, yet also has experience in the 4-3. As we know, versatility is certainly a plus in this scheme, and he'd be a DE, and even possibly line up inside occasionally.

I think he's a board riser, he ran a bit better than expected in the 40, and I could even see him going in the top 20 for sure. I'd be just fine if BB felt strongly enough about his potential.

 

[BoSoxJim]

First off, don't worry about respectful disagreeing, it's a common thing. One of the things I have learned is that you will at some point--get into a pissing match or two, but treating people with respect and valuing their opinion goes an awful long way. We're all basically on the same side, as it's March, and we're still following our team like crazed idiots. We're all obviously pretty hardcore about it, so it is a good place to relax, speak your mind, make some friends, and learn--as there are a lot of people with good knowledge.

The point you make about Wilkerson's days at Temple is a valid one, as I have thought of it myself before too. One thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of good players who come from small schools. The same case you make for Wilkerson not having good enough competition, can be said about a number of decent players. Guys like Jerry Rice, etc. The good example that comes to mind here is Vollmer coming from Houston (maybe not the 'exact' same, but at least comparable). He obviously didn't take on the best that division 1 had to offer, but still has excelled pretty well. Even guys like Edelman or Roethlisberger have done well since coming from the MAC.

Also, when talking of their schedule, they beat up on UConn decently, 30-16, and hung in there damn well against then ranked #23 Penn St, losing 22-13.

We're talking about a team that was 8-2 at one point, and made dramatic improvements overall, and mainly on defense. If anything, I think they need help on the other side of the ball. From what I understand, their HC installed a newer defense that they really responded well to, as the ended up 16th overall in points allowed, giving up about 19 a game, which isn't too bad for college ball.

I like Wilkerson's athleticism (played HS basketball), and his size (6'-5" 305--315). I like the fact that he made a nice transition to the 3-4, yet also has experience in the 4-3. As we know, versatility is certainly a plus in this scheme, and he'd be a DE, and even possibly line up inside occasionally.

I think he's a board riser, he ran a bit better than expected in the 40, and I could even see him going in the top 20 for sure. I'd be just fine if BB felt strongly enough about his potential.

thanks for your input. i am not opposed to wilkerson becoming a patriot. it's just when i compare cam jordan, watt and wilkerson, i just feel jordan is the more versatile player while being a perfect fit for the pats at RDE.

jordan's strength is against the run. but he can push the pocket and get after the QB. if needed. he has excellent technique and body control that allows him to take on double teams and at least hold his ground.

but odds are jordan may not make it to 17. so what then. take OLB and hope the DE you want is available at 28. or does sd want to trade for the pats 28 pick so the pats can get the 18th pick (maybe the chargers are targeting a player they feel will drop and don't want to take them at 18).

i think after a couple years of rebuilding, it's time to put the finishing touches on the defense in the 1st. take jordan at 17 and houston at 18 (i know there are those who poopoo on houston for one reason or the other). houston is a year ahead of all the other hybrid converts due to playing in georgia's new 3-4 defense. he has some more work to do but he is the best overall 3-4 OLB in the draft.
>
ion his learning year this past season, he still managed 10 sacks, 44 QB hurries and 18.5 TFLs during SEC competition (and jordan was pretty much it on defense).

 

[supafly]

thanks for your input. i am not opposed to wilkerson becoming a patriot. it's just when i compare cam jordan, watt and wilkerson, i just feel jordan is the more versatile player while being a perfect fit for the pats at RDE.

jordan's strength is against the run. but he can push the pocket and get after the QB. if needed. he has excellent technique and body control that allows him to take on double teams and at least hold his ground.

but odds are jordan may not make it to 17. so what then. take OLB and hope the DE you want is available at 28. or does sd want to trade for the pats 28 pick so the pats can get the 18th pick (maybe the chargers are targeting a player they feel will drop and don't want to take them at 18).

i think after a couple years of rebuilding, it's time to put the finishing touches on the defense in the 1st. take jordan at 17 and houston at 18 (i know there are those who poopoo on houston for one reason or the other). houston is a year ahead of all the other hybrid converts due to playing in georgia's new 3-4 defense. he has some more work to do but he is the best overall 3-4 OLB in the draft.
>
ion his learning year this past season, he still managed 10 sacks, 44 QB hurries and 18.5 TFLs during SEC competition (and jordan was pretty much it on defense).

No doubt, totally agree on Cameron Jordan. As you stated, he very well may not be around--that's what I'm guessing. The players that you compared are no doubt, imo, better than Wilkerson. He may end up being the next best thing at the position, a la Merriweather 2007(at least that's how I feel about the pick), and if so--that's fine with me too. I don't think he will be around at 28, and as you said, we may not pick then anyway. I am not sure that it will be a trade up to 18, I have a hunch it may be down--just a gut feeling.

You make a good point when you talk about the finishing touches, as opposed to the rebuilding projects. I totally agree there. I think we have the potential to get a couple/few players who will push this defense over the top, especially when you couple that with the return of injured players. From what I remember, there hasn't been any NFL team to lose that many starters on defense before the season since the ARZ Cardinals in 2003, so hopefully the injury bug will not be as bad this year.

Of course, there's always the possibility that Belichick could be going in a totally opposite direction at 17--as much as most will disagree. He could make the decision to take Ingram as a potential franchise RB, as most have him going to MIA--but I have a stupid hunch that MIA will not take him. Maybe a QB? Maybe a defensive player? It'll be interesting, and I'm sure just about every angle will be covered from now until next month.

I also agree in your hopes of not taking an offensive lineman at 17. I too, feel that there are plenty of other opportunities later in the 2nd and 3rd etc for that. I am hoping for that one stud to give us a damn pass rush, and add to the front 7. I just can't imagine the fact of being last in 3rd downs sitting well with BB.

 

[Dobbo]

If the main thing to come out of the Draft is someone like either JJ Watt or Cam Jordan i would be very pleased. Who knows what BB does - but i agree that we need to cap off the D early in this draft.

We have the picks to get our DE and (3-4) OLB/DE, obtain a 2012 first rounder and still retain a couple of 2011 2nd round picks where we can address the O line and perhaps an RB.

I do think that, aside from getting the deals done to keep Mankins and Light we should consider someone like Sidney Rice in FA.

 

[supafly]

If the main thing to come out of the Draft is someone like either JJ Watt or Cam Jordan i would be very pleased. Who knows what BB does - but i agree that we need to cap off the D early in this draft.

We have the picks to get our DE and (3-4) OLB/DE, obtain a 2012 first rounder and still retain a couple of 2011 2nd round picks where we can address the O line and perhaps an RB.

I do think that, aside from getting the deals done to keep Mankins and Light we should consider someone like Sidney Rice in FA.

Unfortunately, Rice is an RFA, and has been tendered by the Vikes. That is of course, barring any extreme changes to the CBA, which I doubt will happen. Even if the new CBA makes changes in that regard, the most they'll likely be, is taking one year off--and cutting it down to 5 to become totally unrestricted free agents.

Sidney Rice is a 4 yr veteran, so the likelihood of him becoming an UFA this year is pretty slim.

I wouldn't be opposed to signing someone else though "Patriots style," meaning a low to mid level castoff or free agent. I'd love to have Steve Breaston here personally, although you could argue one way or the other. I think he'd provide youth, some downfield stretching ability, and a more reasonable price than a huge, major WR like Rice would. Even if Rice were an UFA, I do not think we'd be in the market to compete with his salary demands.

There is always the thought that getting any other WR would prohibit the development of Tate, Edelman and Price, but I have mixed feelings about that. With Branch getting older, and only being signing thru the next season, I wouldn't be opposed to getting another WR, depending on the circumstance. I do agree that we need some type of downfield threat, although BB may feel that he already has it in Tate (which I do not agree with), or Price. They may end up drafting someone in the mid to late rds also.

 

[Dobbo]

Ah! With all the chat about him i assumed he was a UFA. Never mind. Tate is a strange one - for a WR he looks so much better running with the ball in his hands than actually going up and making the grab!

I guess we are off topic though!

If you had the coice... JJ Watt or Cam Jordan?

 

[IllegalContact]

Ah! With all the chat about him i assumed he was a UFA. Never mind. Tate is a strange one - for a WR he looks so much better running with the ball in his hands than actually going up and making the grab!

I guess we are off topic though!

If you had the coice... JJ Watt or Cam Jordan?

for the pats, I'd take wilkerson over either

 

[IllegalContact]

Do you mean Wilkerson at #17? Because I can easily see scenarios where he doesn't last till #28.
In any case Wilkerson strikes me more of a Ty Warren type than a Seymour.
He'll be a solid run stuffer but don't count on him to collapse the pocket or make the QB throw any earlier than he wants to.

Watt is an athletic freak who projects to be able to do both and he hasn't even fully grown into his frame yet.
Get him into the Pats strength and conditioning program and by year 2 we could be looking at the next Julius Peppers.
He can be the type of guy who commands double teams like Seymour used to.
A small trade up to 12-13 to make sure that happens, yeah I can see it. But I wouldn't want to pay two 1sts to move up.

With Stroud in the fold as a run stuffer for the short term. I don't really see as much value in getting a Ty Warren clone.
I'd rather get the guy who can potentially do everything and has a relentless motor along with rare length and athleticism.
How many 6'6 290 lb guys can you name with a 37" vertical and a 6.88 3 cone? Not to mention Watt had 34 bench reps at the Combine which was among the leaders for that category so I think the lack of strength accusations are unfounded. Just watch the tape closer, the guy has powerful violent hands. He can swat down RBs with just one of his mitts. How many other linemen in the NFL do you see making that kind of play?

its not just strength, but leverage. wilkerson has the ability to collapse the pocket even double-teamed......its more about creating the opportunites for the OLB to get to the QB than actually getting to the QB.

I'll take a ty warren clone over a workout warrior who might not hold up against the run....

 

[supafly]

Ah! With all the chat about him i assumed he was a UFA. Never mind. Tate is a strange one - for a WR he looks so much better running with the ball in his hands than actually going up and making the grab!

I guess we are off topic though!

If you had the coice... JJ Watt or Cam Jordan?

Leaning towards Jordan, but would be happy with whatever BB thinks, as he is a much better talent scout for this scheme--than myself I'll seriously be happy even if it's Heyward later on. I'm pretty high on Wilkerson too, at least personally. Tough question though, they may both be gone at 17. Or maybe one's left, and BB doesn't want him there. I could see that scenario for sure--then we'll all be 'shocked' again!!

 

[supafly]

for the pats, I'd take wilkerson over either

Wouldn't be surprised if you were right!!

I think sometimes the whole talent scouting process by the fans overshadows the fact that it's more about the player who fits 'our' scheme better.