Knee jerk reations...

[patfanken]

Re: Knee jerk reations.....

The Pats aren't looking for Tom Brady's replacement. They are seeking a possible replacement for Matt Cassel if he walks after next year. I think that it is good judgment to start training someone now instead of wasting another year.

That might be true, but the fact is that IMHO it is not that while a true franchise QB is rare and hard to find, an average NFL QB, a guy who can manage a good team to the playoffs is not that hard. I think Cassell could do it. However I can think of a bunch of guys, who with the proper coaching could take this Pats team to the playoffs. The point being, the Pats can always get a "competent guy" who would be willing to come here to back up Brady.

And make no mistake, Brady isn't going anywhere for the next 5-8 years. The man is like Montana or Favre, you are going to have to rip the uniform off him, before he quits the game. Even when his physical skills start to wane, in his mind he will always think he can still do it.

So for that matter I find the position of back up QB on the Patriots to be the LEAST important position on the roster because I think its one you can always fill with a competetent back up.

 

[stinkypete]

Re: Knee jerk reations.....

3. This Harrison supsension has gotten me thinking. Its not that I'm complaining about the suspention. A rule is a rule. I'm just thinking about the bigger picture. I'm wonder why using HGH to promote healing is any different than using electronic stimulus or cortizone shots.

It's no different. no different at all.

This whole performance enhancing drug thing is a big witch hunt. It's a pet peoject run by a couple of old-timey morons in congress who seem to think that busting a few atheletes is more important than winning a war, educating our children, cleaning our air and maintaining a healthy economy.

Athletes have been taking performance enhancing drugs since the 1950's (granted not steroids, but stimulants). This is not news. I'd rather just assume that everyone is cheating, and not hear about it anymore.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Knee jerk reations.....

It's no different. no different at all.

This whole performance enhancing drug thing is a big witch hunt. It's a pet peoject run by a couple of old-timey morons in congress who seem to think that busting a few atheletes is more important than winning a war, educating our children, cleaning our air and maintaining a healthy economy.

Athletes have been taking performance enhancing drugs since the 1950's (granted not steroids, but stimulants). This is not news. I'd rather just assume that everyone is cheating, and not hear about it anymore.

If you looked at the list, many stimulants are banned as well...

However, I have to agree with PFK. If its prescribed by a doctor and administered by a doctor for a limited time, there should be no long lasting benefits other than getting healthy quicker.

Most of what I have seen has said that HGH does not allow the body to ADD muscle mass. What adds the muscle mass is the actual work outs themselves or mixing the HGH with testosterone and steroids...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Knee jerk reations.....

That might be true, but the fact is that IMHO it is not that while a true franchise QB is rare and hard to find, an average NFL QB, a guy who can manage a good team to the playoffs is not that hard. I think Cassell could do it. However I can think of a bunch of guys, who with the proper coaching could take this Pats team to the playoffs. The point being, the Pats can always get a "competent guy" who would be willing to come here to back up Brady.

And make no mistake, Brady isn't going anywhere for the next 5-8 years. The man is like Montana or Favre, you are going to have to rip the uniform off him, before he quits the game. Even when his physical skills start to wane, in his mind he will always think he can still do it.

So for that matter I find the position of back up QB on the Patriots to be the LEAST important position on the roster because I think its one you can always fill with a competetent back up.

This isn't just knee jerk, it's delusional.

 

[UGAPatsfan]

Re: Knee jerk reations.....

Great points from a person who actually understands what HGH is...refreshing.

Yes, someone else who gets it. I think HGH suffers from a bad rap because people who abuse steroids often also take HGH, but there are clinical studies out there that state HGH does not increase strength for the user. One gains a modest, almost negligible gain in lean muscle mass, but that gain has no correlation to an increase in strength. One could make the arguement that a HGH user recovers faster and as such can work out longer, harder and more frequently, thus offering an strength and conditioning advantage to the user versus the non-user, but it's really not a performance booster like steroids.

Also, just to rule out any futher flames, I too want to make it clear this is not an excuse for Rodney having broken the existing rule. He broke the rule and the suspension was justified.

Lastly, I posted excerpts of this article in a previous thread a couple days ago. This ESPN article, if nothing else, raises questions and prompts the reader to reexamine the issue outside the realm of polemics.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2574291&type=story

 

[BelichickFan]

Re: Knee jerk reations.....

I agree with the masses on Gutierrez.

If we don't get a solid trade offer for Cassel this coming offseason - and I'm starting to think we won't as he just hasn't had the real game action to warrant it - we'll have a strong duo of Cassel and Gutierrez as backups next year then the following year Gutierrez will have two years on the team as the #2 guy. That's a strong position to be in.

 

[pats1]

Forget about Wesley. He's already back with the Panthers.

And I really don't care who the 3rd QB is or if there is one. I'll be happy no matter what. The 53rd spot won't make or break a team -- it'll just be inactive.

 

[PatsFan37]

1. First my own: I am now PISSED at the fact the Pats kept Gutierrez a lost that roster spot. Here's why. HE IS NOT THE QB OF THE FUTURE, any more than Matt Cassel is. The fact is that Tom Brady is our QB of the future...and that's a good thing. OUR QB of the future is still playing in college...or HS. Tom Brady is going to be our QB for the next 5 years... AT LEAST, by that time both Matt Cassel and Gutierrez will be playing for OTHER teams since their rookie contracts will have long past elapsed forcing either a trade or release. For that reason, even if Gutierrez was going to be picked up by another team if waived, he was NEVER going to be a significant player here in NE. A guy like Rogers would have been MUCH more likely to play a significant role on a future Pats roster. Personally I think we outsmarted ourselves......unless.....

....Unless the Pats plan on releasing Matt in a week or so AFTER rosters in the rest of the league are more set in stone, and the likelyhood of Guttierez being added to another team's 53 man roster is decidely decreased. THEN the Pats can make that call to Dante Wesley to get his butt back to the team. In fact I'm willing to bet that when the cut him they told him not to pack his bag or get out of his lease. Just a thought.

Last year the Eagles got to the playoffs on the strength of a good backup quarterback, and had a shot at going to the superbowl. It's a good thing they put a premium on developing backup QBs, in case of emergency.

Now rephrase that statement as follows: Last year the Eagles got to the playoffs on the strength of a good backup linebacker, and had a shot at going to the superbowl.

See how ridiculous that sounds?

LBs are important but QBs are a sine qua non. We need one behind Brady and we need to be developing one behind Cassel. You are way too confident about the health of a guy who gets hit a hundred times a season by big fast men. You are beyond confident about the talents of QBs currently stocking shelves in the supermarket.

Gutierrez flashed more poise in the pocket than we've seen in a rookie QB in a while, and that is rare. More than Cassel showed in his first year. More than Davey ever showed. Other teams saw that, too, and Bill and Scott obviously decided they couldn't risk the waiver wire.

That business about Gutz running downfield on kick coverage -- it's not something 3rd string QBs ever have to do and I think it was a test of his mettle, see if he'd do whatever it takes to help the team, to lead by example. He must have passed.

 

[ClevTrev]

As usual, some provocative thoughts from PFK.

As for Gutierrez, I won't miss Vinny, as this kid has a better upside and what better way to start grooming poised backups as to add them to the team during a time the position has the best strength and depth. Welcome aboard, Matt! You'll be learning from the best!

As for the Harrison situation, I look at it this way: he admitted procuring a banned substance, he got caught, he was suspended for the league mandated 4 games. End of story. When he's able to play in a game and back in a Pats uniform, I will support him as I've always supported every player on the team. Until then, there are 4 games to be played by those available on the current roster. No excuses. All the mindless pronouncements and speculation means nothing, as no one on this board has access to any of the facts directly. It is what it is . . .

 

[patfanken]

As usual, some provocative thoughts from PFK.

As for Gutierrez, I won't miss Vinny, as this kid has a better upside and what better way to start grooming poised backups as to add them to the team during a time the position has the best strength and depth. Welcome aboard, Matt! You'll be learing from the best!

As for the Harrison situation, I look at it this way: he admitted procuring a banned substance, he got caught, he was suspended for the league mandated 4 games. End of story. When he's able to play in a game and back in a Pats uniform, I will support him as I've always supported every player on the team. Until then, there are 4 games to be played by those available on the current roster. No excuses. All the mindless pronouncements and speculation means nothing, as no one on this board has access to any of the facts directly. It is what it is . . .

I think you missed my point, Clev. It has NOTHING to do with Harrison. I'm just broaching the question of whether using HGH to quicken the healing process is different than using cortizone, or electronic stimulus machines. If HGH isn't used to artificially improve strength or speed, why is it banned? The issue of Harrison is dead and gone. My question is about the future....and on THAT basis, I'm interested in YOUR opinion...as well as others.

 

[ClevTrev]

Re: Knee jerk reations.....

That might be true, but the fact is that IMHO it is not that while a true franchise QB is rare and hard to find, an average NFL QB, a guy who can manage a good team to the playoffs is not that hard. I think Cassell could do it. However I can think of a bunch of guys, who with the proper coaching could take this Pats team to the playoffs. The point being, the Pats can always get a "competent guy" who would be willing to come here to back up Brady.

And make no mistake, Brady isn't going anywhere for the next 5-8 years. The man is like Montana or Favre, you are going to have to rip the uniform off him, before he quits the game. Even when his physical skills start to wane, in his mind he will always think he can still do it.

So for that matter I find the position of back up QB on the Patriots to be the LEAST important position on the roster because I think its one you can always fill with a competetent back up.

And for this reason, it leads one to wonder whether the Pats found a diamond in the rough with Gutierrez and realized they had much more than a typical UDFA for backup QB. At some point, I have to acknowledge that BB and staff know what they're doing every now and again!

 

[ClevTrev]

I think you missed my point, Clev. It has NOTHING to do with Harrison. I'm just broaching the question of whether using HGH to quicken the healing process is different than using cortizone, or electronic stimulus machines. If HGH isn't used to artificially improve strength or speed, why is it banned? The issue of Harrison is dead and gone. My question is about the future....and on THAT basis, I'm interested in YOUR opinion...as well as others.

I didn't miss your point, PFK. It's just the accumulation of all the Harrison posts in the past couple days that have pushed me to where I am at this time.

As for the future in regards to HGH and other substances, I am still trying to digest that one, as any time there's this strong of an indication that a banned substance is being used by potentially so many, I need to understand more about the substance (HGH in this case) before I can form an opinion. If and when I get to that point, I'll chime in. For now, while I'm disappointed this bad news has impacted our collective excitement as the season is about to begin, I'm going to focus on the game next Sunday.

 

[patfanken]

Re: Knee jerk reations.....

This isn't just knee jerk, it's delusional.

Well not really Mo. It seems to me that there are several competent QBs out there all the time. A couple of years ago Jon Kitna would have been thrilled to back up Tom Brady. If a Jeff Garcia was willing to back up McNab, why would he balk at backing up a Brady. Who will be next year's Harrington and Carr.

Speaking of Carr, if he replaces Delhomme, as many predict, would you hate it if Delhomme backed up Brady for a few years???? Sorry Mo, there are ALWAYS candidates who would have had more proven success than Matt Cassell that are available every year. Would I want them as starters? NO! emphatically NO! However do I think there are guys willing to come to the Pats who have actually won NFL games as QBs. Yeah, there are always guys like that available.

I'm just saying that neither Cassell OR Guts are going to replace Brady as the Pats QB. They just aren't going to be here when that happens. And if that's so, why waste a roster spot for him, in a year when you are likely to lose some players who are going to help you a lot more on the field than Matt Guttierez over the next 3 years.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

The Pats should be fine, IMHO.

If anything, LOTS of teams are having their fair share of problems now-pt being that it'll all be awash when teams meet head to head.

BTW-outside of @Jets, SD, and @Dallas, what are the Pats' other 3 opponents in the first 6 weeks?

Jets-not sold on them this year. Did they make many upgrades? The Saints did(that "other" over-achieving team last year, that is). I don't think they did.

SD-Look at who their coach is

Dallas-as much as it pains me to type this, most of the personnel on D is from the Parcells era. Wade Phillips may not be able to run his attacking style b/c most of the personnel is more of a Cover 2 style(unlike Wade's SD D which had 4-5 good pass rushers, Dallas only has 2, and Ellis is still out). And the OL is still a Q mark(largely b/c Parcells made alot of draft busts in this area).

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Knee jerk reations.....

Well not really Mo. It seems to me that there are several competent QBs out there all the time. A couple of years ago Jon Kitna would have been thrilled to back up Tom Brady. If a Jeff Garcia was willing to back up McNab, why would he balk at backing up a Brady. Who will be next year's Harrington and Carr.

Speaking of Carr, if he replaces Delhomme, as many predict, would you hate it if Delhomme backed up Brady for a few years???? Sorry Mo, there are ALWAYS candidates who would have had more proven success than Matt Cassell that are available every year. Would I want them as starters? NO! emphatically NO! However do I think there are guys willing to come to the Pats who have actually won NFL games as QBs. Yeah, there are always guys like that available.

I'm just saying that neither Cassell OR Guts are going to replace Brady as the Pats QB. They just aren't going to be here when that happens. And if that's so, why waste a roster spot for him, in a year when you are likely to lose some players who are going to help you a lot more on the field than Matt Guttierez over the next 3 years.

You just don't get it, Ken. Kitna and Garcia and Harrington - they're starters in this league today because for a frightening number of NFL teams there is no better option or alternative. It's why they landed deals where they did. In fact one of our former backups, who left here because he wanted more money than BB is willing to pay a backup and a legit shot at starting, is starting too. And as for Jake, I'll pass. He's Brett Favre redux - he couldn't run this offense. Gunslingers are prone to emotionally fueled poor decision making. Some schmuck GM will overpay Jake for failing miserably if he loses his job to Carr to try to reinvent himself as a starter, just as the Panthers are overpaying Carr to backup Delhomme while hoping his damaged psyche heals and Atlanta is praying Harrington is a better decision maker than the pundits think because their last QB was a decisionsmakers nightmare. Garcia caught lightning in a bottle, for a time, in Philly last season in a system he was familiar with that had a QB with durability issues. Then he was off to greener pastures and another shot at starting because that's what Jeff cares about - salvaging any remnants of his own career. Bill wants consistency and continuity at the spots on this roster that could end up running his offense - not a revolving door of overcompensated seat of the pants reclamation projects focused on parlaying their brief time here land a more lucrative starting gig while he wastes a season or two trying to re-wire their brains to run a complicated sight adjusted offense. By the time most veteran QB's give up the dream of starting, they are Vinny and Doug. You either bring in a guy with a skill set and track record that is relative to your system, and good luck with that here, or you groom guys to run that system. Backing up apples with oranges is just an exercise in futility.

I guess that's the part you don't get. QB's aren't interchangeable parts any more than Dlinemen who are only suited to a particular system. Cassel and Gutierrez are perfect backups for Brady because they are essentially blank slates who can make all the throws, have exhibited similar work ethic to the guy they are backing up and they are being groomed to read defenses, make good decisions, avoid stupid mistakes, manage a game. One of the requisites both have is the capacity to check any ego and illusions at the door. They provide value on this roster today, taking up less combined cap space than a veteran minimum backup QB, which none of the guys you mention would be, they may provide more value down the road, and unlike the guys you are apparently mourning both will be active every game day. One will run the scout team.

Bill had room to keep a couple of more players on the roster even with Gutierrez making the 53 - HE CHOSE NOT TO. He felt Gutierrez would develop better on a roster with Brady and Cassel, just as he believed Cassel would develop better on a roster with Brady and Flutie - and apparently he did since we opened the following season with just 2 QB's on the roster while again trying out two college QB's who couldn't even make a PS in the league. I would have been pissed had we kept Vinny on the roster because he has no developmental potential and he remains just a phone call away in an emergency. But it would have to be a pretty dire emergency for me to make that call other than to "waste" a roster spot on a great old veteran presence to talk to when what you would truly need is someone with the capacity to run the system. No replacement is going to be able to do what Brady does, but at least a well groomed understudy with no alternate agenda is a lot less likely to totally screw it up attempting to make the highlight ESPN reels.

Few QB's make it into the league each year and stick at any level even in a league starved for functional talent at the position. It's the position most difficult to draft for successfully while remaining the single most important position on the field - not to mention the single most important backup position on the roster. We wasted a 4th a few years back on a kid who ran a championship level college program and got named the NFLE MVP before getting elevated to the #2 position here by default. Couldn't run a pro system to save his soul, yet we retained him until a kid who hadn't played since HS passed him on the depth chart. The guy Brady replaced had a lot of talent - got him drafted #1. He couldn't run this offense any more than Rohan or the guys you mentioned could. We've had a little better luck finding potential diamonds in the late day 2 rough who, if they show enough potential for development are worth keeping on the roster to develop simply because they show promise IN THIS SYSTEM. But in seven draft and off seasons we've apparently only managed to find 2-3 with suficient promise to even warrant a closer look or further investment. That speaks volumes on why we would keep one we may have identified now or for that matter at most any time.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Ken,

Your posts are often leaning towards the best case scenario, which is fine and all, but I just don't get what you are trying to say about Brady and the QB situation at all.

I am just praying that the O-Line plays consistently this year so we don't have to test your theory on the easy to replace guy on this team being BRADY.

Cause it ain't even close to true.

Brady has been given no help on offense to speak of in all the years he has been here. Not a single elite lineman, not a single elite WR, and only one elite running back, who was on his last leg.

This year, Brady has a good looking WR core on paper, but I don't think you could just throw some journeyman behind that O-Line and get very far. Unless the journeyman QB can process information with lightning speed, make the right choice almost every time, and doesn't mind playing injuried due to late hits after every pass attempt. Good luck finding a guy off the streets that fits that bill. Brady spends a lot of time in the hot tub in order to run this particular offense.

Brady has the ability to turn water into wine. Journeyman QBs are simply not going to cut it in this offense.

 

[patfanken]

Maybe I'm not being articulate enough. My issue is NOT about how good Gutts or Cassell might become. They might be all pros some day. What I am saying is that NEITHER will ever be a regular starter on this team....EVER, no matter how good they become. For the next 5-8 years TOM BRADY will be the QB on this team...PERIOD.

This issue as I see it, is using a very important and rare roster spot on a guy who's highest potential use is to replace Matt Cassell as the back up in 3 years!

My contention is that every year there are several competent back up QBs, with more NFL experience than either Cassell or Gutts will ever get playing behind Brady, that will be available.

THIS YEAR I think the roster spot the Gutts will take up COULD have been used for a player who would actually get on the field and contribute to the team. Gutts will never see a down of action. He might be ready to do mop up work in the 4th quarter of a preseason game, but he isn't prepared to play in a real game THIS year, and more than Brady was in 2000.

THIS year's team would be better if Dante Wesley was on the roster instead of Matt Guttierez, You cannot dispute that fact.

I like Cassel as our back up. I like what I've seen from Gutts. However losing Gutts IS NOT going to hurt his franchise this year or going forward. What we did do, IMHO, is lose a roster spot that was unneccessary. Not a big thing in the great scheme of things, but unneccessary nontheless

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

THIS year's team would be better if Dante Wesley was on the roster instead of Matt Guttierez, You cannot dispute that fact.

I can, but I don't have to - BB did it for me.

 

[patsfan209]

Maybe I'm not being articulate enough. My issue is NOT about how good Gutts or Cassell might become. They might be all pros some day. What I am saying is that NEITHER will ever be a regular starter on this team....EVER, no matter how good they become. For the next 5-8 years TOM BRADY will be the QB on this team...PERIOD.

I think I'm the only one who completely understands what you're saying. And I do agree with it. The Pats backup QB position will be nothing but a revolving door while Brady is here, starting and able.

Just look at Brett Favre in his whole tenure with Green Bay: the team never needed to use their backups. I see the same here in New England.

 

[spacecrime]

I think I'm the only one who completely understands what you're saying. And I do agree with it. The Pats backup QB position will be nothing but a revolving door while Brady is here, starting and able.

Just look at Brett Favre in his whole tenure with Green Bay: the team never needed to use their backups. I see the same here in New England.

Just because you don't have to use your insurance poicy does not mean you should not have an insurance policy.