Just call him A-Roid

[scout]

Still don't understand how sport fans in the US can still actually believe there are clean athletes. In '88 Ben Johnson beat out other 'roiders (or HGH in Carl Lewis' case) and we all were forever changed.

I've known since the eighth grade that all the pros are on 'roids. To further illustrate : when the Mitchell report came out, my childhood heroes weren't named. But you know what, Expos utility men and middle relievers were on the list. If the skinny FP Santangelo with his 2 or 3 homers per year was on there... come on.

Football is no doubt WAAAY worst. If high schoolers are using to beat their rivals and then going nowhere to play thereafter - how can we be so naive into thinking the pros are clean ?

You always have to have squint an eye in regards to athletes who excel in certain areas and think..........maybe, or in some cases I bet on it. But, to answer your question, no, there are athletes out there that are clean. Heck, take that attitude the whole nine yards, all politicians are dirty, all bankers are dishonest, all cops are on the take, all lawyers are scumbags, all poker players cheat, etc, etc. Your doing a disservice to anybody who makes an honest living who happens to be in the same arena as some cheats. Very easy to say all baseball players cheat. Next time you meet Dustin Pedroia, tell him to his face that he's tainted. Kind of like when the media was harping that black athletes were naturally more athletic. How did Bill Russell take that?

 

[farn]

You always have to have squint an eye in regards to athletes who excel in certain areas and think..........maybe, or in some cases I bet on it. But, to answer your question, no, there are athletes out there that are clean. Heck, take that attitude the whole nine yards, all politicians are dirty, all bankers are dishonest, all cops are on the take, all lawyers are scumbags, all poker players cheat, etc, etc. Your doing a disservice to anybody who makes an honest living who happens to be in the same arena as some cheats. Very easy to say all baseball players cheat. Next time you meet Dustin Pedroia, tell him to his face that he's tainted. Kind of like when the media was harping that black athletes were naturally more athletic. How did Bill Russell take that?

No problem. I believe Pedroia is on something. I would never be able to say it on the record, it's just a belief. I cannot prove. I hear you. I understand not EVERYONE in the world is corrupt. I just happen to believe almost all professional athletes are using. My opinion, but open to the fact that SOME may not be. I also, BTW, happen to truly believe Pedroia is also cheating... more than I'd suspect others, to be honest.

 

[Double G]

"I just happen to believe almost all professional athletes are using. My opinion, but open to the fact that SOME may not be."

The more we hear this one or that one was on such and such, I am falling more and more into this camp. They are professional athletes, ie, they make their living playing a sport.

Sorry, the vast majority are looking for something, anything to take their game to the next level, to heal faster, to play better, all in the name of making more money for as long as they can. Their shelf life is short, so they need to grab what they can when they can, end of story.

 

[farn]

Yup... and then, on ESPN (take it for what it'S worth) they laugh as they suggest (paraphrasing) "...well if Greg Maddux is juicing... blah blah blah" as if he isn't on my suspect list. Let's see : plays forever, never gets hurt... I suspect him. How can "journalists" not see it ?

I can almost understand fans, because they get invested emotionally, etc... I say 97% are juicing in baseball. More in football.

 

[Jackson 2]

Is there anyone on that team that hasn't been juiced? According to the NY Post 27 confirmed dopers. And the NY fans call the Patriots cheaters for taping signals? What a country...

 

[Jackson 2]

No problem. I believe Pedroia is on something. I would never be able to say it on the record, it's just a belief. I cannot prove. I hear you. I understand not EVERYONE in the world is corrupt. I just happen to believe almost all professional athletes are using. My opinion, but open to the fact that SOME may not be. I also, BTW, happen to truly believe Pedroia is also cheating... more than I'd suspect others, to be honest.

If you can't prove it, you need to shut up. In other words, if you have no proof your opinion doesn't count.

 

[Jackson 2]

Yup... and then, on ESPN (take it for what it'S worth) they laugh as they suggest (paraphrasing) "...well if Greg Maddux is juicing... blah blah blah" as if he isn't on my suspect list. Let's see : plays forever, never gets hurt... I suspect him. How can "journalists" not see it ?

I can almost understand fans, because they get invested emotionally, etc... I say 97% are juicing in baseball. More in football.

Proof? Evidence?

 

[Jackson 2]

Duh. And you Ortiz ball washers need to face the facts that Papi was also on the juice from 2004-2006. Look at his stats.

You need to provide proof.. which you can't. Nice try...

 

[farn]

If you can't prove it, you need to shut up. In other words, if you have no proof your opinion doesn't count.

Understood. If you want me to shut it, I will. But what if I have an opinion based on the number of "caught cheaters" ? Who cares ? OK. NO cheaters in baseball.

 

[Jackson 2]

Understood. If you want me to shut it, I will. But what if I have an opinion based on the number of "caught cheaters" ? Who cares ? OK. NO cheaters in baseball.

.....What????

 

[Foley]

Understood. If you want me to shut it, I will. But what if I have an opinion based on the number of "caught cheaters" ? Who cares ? OK. NO cheaters in baseball.

No one is claiming that there aren't a ton of steroid users in baseball. The point is that pissing on a players accomplishments by saying they probably did steroids is absurd when there is no evidence to suggest they were/are juicing.

There are plenty of players who use steroids, and there are plenty of players who haven't. Lumping the two together is disrespectful to those players who accomplished what they did clean.

 

[farn]

No one is claiming that there aren't a ton of steroid users in baseball. The point is that pissing on a players accomplishments by saying they probably did steroids is absurd when there is no evidence to suggest they were/are juicing.

There are plenty of players who use steroids, and there are plenty of players who haven't. Lumping the two together is disrespectful to those players who accomplished what they did clean.

Here's the thing : I don't believe you that there are PLENTY of players who haven't. But, since there are plenty who haven't been caught and you guys seem sensitive, I'll refrain from naming names - of those NOT caught.

What I am saying is this : I am skeptical about all... and FP Santangelo was in the M.report - that was an eye opener for me.

 

[Foley]

Here's the thing : I don't believe you that there are PLENTY of players who haven't. But, since there are plenty who haven't been caught and you guys seem sensitive, I'll refrain from naming names - of those NOT caught.

What I am saying is this : I am skeptical about all... and FP Santangelo was in the M.report - that was an eye opener for me.

There's a difference between being sensitive and thinking an opinion is misguided. Should I think that Lenny Dinardo has mob connections because he is Italian? Is Youkilis cheap because he is Jewish? Suggesting that nearly all of one group of people do something, despite zero evidence to suggest that, is absurd.

And be skeptical. That's fine. But there is a difference between being skeptical and condemning someone for something you have no evidence to suggest they did.

 

[farn]

Very well... if we're saying I'm a biggot and all...

Here's the deal - it's hard to talk logically about the issue for the following reasons.
*Few have been caught.
*There is logical reason to suspet it is widespread.
*Some remain on the "island" for years.

If you want to talk steroids, give me your take. You don't want to point fingers. Ok, that's fine. So what do you think ? There are really tonnes of clean pros out there ? On what do you base that ? On the fact that cheaters are always one step ahead of the law enforcers and therefore we need to be cautious when talking about potential cheaters because the authorities are too dumb to get "their man" ?

Here' what baseball SHOULD do if they ACTUALLY want to clean up the game.
-take samples
-starting in '09, if your caught, you're dumped. period.
-keep the samples. If testing improves, test again. dump the cheaters.

I love baseball. I'm just not as naive as some.

 

[Foley]

Very well... if we're saying I'm a biggot and all...

Here's the deal - it's hard to talk logically about the issue for the following reasons.
*Few have been caught.
*There is logical reason to suspet it is widespread.
*Some remain on the "island" for years.

If you want to talk steroids, give me your take. You don't want to point fingers. Ok, that's fine. So what do you think ? There are really tonnes of clean pros out there ? On what do you base that ? On the fact that cheaters are always one step ahead of the law enforcers and therefore we need to be cautious when talking about potential cheaters because the authorities are too dumb to get "their man" ?

Here' what baseball SHOULD do if they ACTUALLY want to clean up the game.
-take samples
-starting in '09, if your caught, you're dumped. period.
-keep the samples. If testing improves, test again. dump the cheaters.

I love baseball. I'm just not as naive as some.

I fully expect that a majority of players have used some form or steroids at least once in their playing career, but that doesn't mean that everyone has. Like I said, there are definitely a ton of steroid users in baseball now and you should be skeptical. But you shouldn't be skeptical for the sake of being skeptical. It is certainly a widespread problem, but widespread does not mean everyone. The 104 names from this test and the 85 players from Mitchell report represent 189 names out of tens of thousands of players who have played since the 1980s. That's a far cry from 97%. And yes, even more than that are certainly taking stuff that is undetectable, but if you want to look at it based on the number of "caught cheaters" (as you alluded to earlier), the number of steroid users isn't in the stratosphere of 97%.

And you can't prove a false positive. Its impossible to prove that there are a ton of players who haven't used steroids, just as it is impossible to prove that 97% have used steroids. My point, as I have said, it that condemning people for something that their peers have done is ludicrous. Why should we think that a guy like Maddux was juicing because he had a long career with little injuries? So did Cy Young. So did Walter Johnson. So did a lot of other players before steroids were created. Maddux should be condemned for no reason other than he pitched in the steroid era?

 

[farn]

I already mentionned that I wouldn't go naming names if you felt is was out of bounds... but I continue to feel that the number is huge. I'm not certain what % you would feel comfortable with, but I think it's ridiculously high.

They have all those names, but do not forget : they all come from only a few sources. If they ever hit 10 or 15 sources, the names would multiply.

When Cy Young played, baseball was not quite as lucrative. There was also segregation and I'm sure many small town players never got "found".

I guess I can't think of one player who I'd be surprised to find out was using.

 

[Jackson 2]

Here's the thing : I don't believe you that there are PLENTY of players who haven't. But, since there are plenty who haven't been caught and you guys seem sensitive, I'll refrain from naming names - of those NOT caught.

What I am saying is this : I am skeptical about all... and FP Santangelo was in the M.report - that was an eye opener for me.

I agree - I'm skeptical of all Yankees, above all...

 

[Foley]

I already mentionned that I wouldn't go naming names if you felt is was out of bounds... but I continue to feel that the number is huge. I'm not certain what % you would feel comfortable with, but I think it's ridiculously high.

They have all those names, but do not forget : they all come from only a few sources. If they ever hit 10 or 15 sources, the names would multiply.

When Cy Young played, baseball was not quite as lucrative. There was also segregation and I'm sure many small town players never got "found".

I guess I can't think of one player who I'd be surprised to find out was using.

Of course if they found more sources they'd find more names, but looking strictly at the "caught cheaters", 97% is a baseless number. At any given time there are 750 active major league players, so if 189 players tested positive next year, that would only be 25% of active players. 189 in one season isn't close to 97%, so 189 over a 20 year span is barely worth mentioning.

As far as Cy Young, none of that changes the fact that he was able to play 20+ years largely free of injury. If he can do it 100 years ago without suspicion, why can't Maddux do it now without suspicion?

 

[farn]

Of course if they found more sources they'd find more names, but looking strictly at the "caught cheaters", 97% is a baseless number. At any given time there are 750 active major league players, so if 189 players tested positive next year, that would only be 25% of active players. 189 in one season isn't close to 97%, so 189 over a 20 year span is barely worth mentioning.

As far as Cy Young, none of that changes the fact that he was able to play 20+ years largely free of injury. If he can do it 100 years ago without suspicion, why can't Maddux do it now without suspicion?

The only reason I mentionned Maddux (you can go back and check) was because ESPN threw his name out there are a person that if he was ever linked to steroids, they'd be shocked. I then said that I wouldn't be surprised and I WAS surprised that "journalists" from ESPN would be so dumb as to use ANY names (as sure things), given the current climate.

But before I die, I predict so many names will come out that my % will not seem so ridiculous.

 

[Synovia]

so if 189 players tested positive next year, that would only be 25% of active players. 189 in one season

No, it wouldnt. That would be 25% of the active population using steroids that are able to be tested for. Right now, the tests are about 5 years behind the drugs. What percentage do you think are willing to pony up the cash for the drugs that can't be tested for?


This is a sport where a 10 HR increase can get you an extra $10M a year. Do you really think that a lot of these players aren't willing to make some sacrafices to get that money? Remember, these are some of the most competitive people in the world.