Jerry Rice reaps what he sowed

[frankiesfly]

What does Moss supposed to do? Call Jeryy and say" Congratulations on me beating your record" Doesn't the old record record holder cal the new one? I guess the HOF Jerry is to good to pick up a phone.

 

[NYCPatsFan]

I agree with this assessment completely. I remember Rice whining to the press about how his endorsement opportunities were not equal to Joe Montana's. Alot of Rice's prima donna nature was covered up by the adoring press. He reminds me a bit of Marvin Harrison. Let's just say Rice was no saint. People who blame TO for being selfish have to realize where and with whom he cut his teeth. Say what you want about Moss, and there's alot of baggage there, but he's not a phony. Ever.

Quite interesting information for those of us who didn't know much about the history of individual players in other teams. Thanks.

I guess I will put a * next to Rice's clean reputation based on how I have seen him respond in the media for the last few years. (Let me rush to add that I haven't heard/read his comments on the recent ESPN show based on which this thread has been set up.)

 

[PonyExpress]

How does he remind you of Marvin Harrison? I hate everything about the Colts-but I'm not sure I've even ever heard that man speak.

Marvin has a long history of selfish play. There has been alot of friction in the Colts O over the years about where Manning throws the ball, usually because Harrison resents being anything but the #1 option. This reared its ugly head a great deal as Reggie Wayne emerged as a star. In the Colts playoff loss to the Steelers Harrison acted like a child, sitting on a corner of the bench by himself away from his team. He was sued in Honolulu for assaulting two minors who were seeking his autograph at the probowl. He has famously relied on a diet of junk food throughout his career.

Many of the great receivers have been strange birds. For whatever reason, the selfishness of Harrison and Rice has been glossed over. The selfishness of Moss and TO has been more demonstrative, and become public knowledge. The reason IMO is that Rice one championships, and title rings are great deoderizers. Same for Harrison, plus he plays for in a small market with limited media scrutiny. If he had pulled the same act in Philly, Boston, NY or Chicago, we would all think of him as a prissy prima donna who whines when his stats decline.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

In terms of production, this year he's had has been better than any year Rice ever had. And there are things that career stats don't reveal. It's no surprise whatsoever that Moss has been the only common denominator between the two highest scoring offenses in NFL history.

I agree with you on the issue of work ethic, but I think you have to look at where Moss came into the league versus where Rice came into the league.

Rice came into the league under Bill Walsh and the 49ers, being thrown to by Joe Montana.

Moss came into the league branded as a problem child. He came into college branded as a problem child. Rather than look at his talent and try to mentor him, most teams looked past him. And I don't believe the Vikings under Dennis Green was the kind of environment he needed to mature in.

Oakland was even worse. If you watch "The Moss Method" you'll see he did put in the hard work and attended the roughest training camps in the off-season. But Oakland didn't know what to do with him and had no way of really tapping his potential. It's like the kids who are too smart for the classes they're in, so they get into trouble out of boredom.

Now, 10 years in, he's been given a shot to work with today's Bill Walsh and Joe Montana. And you can see that now that he's been given that chance, he's exceeded all expectations, been a true team player, found a coach who respects him and can mentor him, and a QB who is good enough to utilize him to his full potential.

It's wrong to characterize Moss as being less than Rice because of career stats or his work ethic when he wasn't in the right environments to excel at either.

If anything, it's the same story as Brady or Belichick. Brady never had the career stats and no one thought Belichick could be a great head coach. He was run out of Cleveland and then bailed on the Jets. Maybe that's the real story of the 2001-2007 Patriots. A team of misfits who were never given the chance to show their greatness coming together to surpass all metrics of greatness.

In short, don't be too fast to judge Moss for his past lest you be willing to hold Belichick's or Brady's against them as well. In time, he will put all doubt to rest about who the greatest WR ever is.

I don't buy into any excuses about enviroment. Moss was a problem child. Rice is selfish, but in a different way. Rice never let anything come between him and the game.

I also don't buy comparing anything about Brady, Belichick or Moss.

Moss is the most talented WR of all time, and he will likely not touch Rice's records. Rice's records don't end with regular season games. He is off the charts in the playoffs.

Moss has now lived up to his full potential for one season. Rice did every season, and I respect that a lot more. I respect the consistency of Rice in being the best he could be. I would rather see a Welker or Troy Brown or Rice be all they can be than see an Owens or a Moss get by on talent (as in years past).

I don't think Moss will last as long as Rice or match his overall stats, even with more talent like he has.

I have always liked Moss, going back to the Vikings, but it was pretty obvious that Moss was easily distracted from football by a lot of things, and that was his fault, not the enviroment's fault.

I hope that Moss stays with the Pats, and breaks all of Rice's records. But until then, the comparison between him and Rice goes to Rice by a knock-out. One spectacular season is not enough. Rice did it in 12 games, in case you haven't heard.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Let's put this in a different light. If we sent Moss back in time and fresh out of college he was drafted into Bill Walsh's 49ers, getting thrown to by Joe Montana, do you think Moss would have set better records than Rice? I sure as hell do.

Send Rice into the future straight out of college and sign him with the Patriots. Do you think he would have set the same numbers as Moss? Or even as high as the ones he had in San Francisco? Personally, I don't think Belichick and Brady would have put up with his whining or ego enough to let him break records.

You can get way into imaginary scenarios if you want, but the cold hard stats are on the table already. Moss will either match Rice's production or he won't, and that will be the thing that he is compared with in future years to all the other WRs that come and go in this league.

 

[Tommysgirl]

Marvin has a long history of selfish play. There has been alot of friction in the Colts O over the years about where Manning throws the ball, usually because Harrison resents being anything but the #1 option. This reared its ugly head a great deal as Reggie Wayne emerged as a star. In the Colts playoff loss to the Steelers Harrison acted like a child, sitting on a corner of the bench by himself away from his team. He was sued in Honolulu for assaulting two minors who were seeking his autograph at the probowl. He has famously relied on a diet of junk food throughout his career.

Many of the great receivers have been strange birds. For whatever reason, the selfishness of Harrison and Rice has been glossed over. The selfishness of Moss and TO has been more demonstrative, and become public knowledge. The reason IMO is that Rice one championships, and title rings are great deoderizers. Same for Harrison, plus he plays for in a small market with limited media scrutiny. If he had pulled the same act in Philly, Boston, NY or Chicago, we would all think of him as a prissy prima donna who whines when his stats decline.

I'm stunned. I never knew any of that. I remember him sitting on the bench but for some reason, I thought he was just upset--not pouting. Guess it proves how the media can affect your perception of people. He was really sued?

The only thing I did know was that he had a son and that Colts fans ignore this fact while criticizing Brady for his.

 

[DaedalusX]

I don't buy into any excuses about enviroment. Moss was a problem child.

You need to rethink this attitude. You can't judge someone without knowing and acknowledging where they came from.

Rice is selfish, but in a different way.

You mean more like TO? Throwing Joe Montana and Steve Young under the bus isn't very respectable.

I also don't buy comparing anything about Brady, Belichick or Moss.

If you want your opinion to carry any weight, you should explain why. Waving your hands around and saying "I disagree" doesn't a valid argument make.

Moss is the most talented WR of all time, and he will likely not touch Rice's records. Rice's records don't end with regular season games. He is off the charts in the playoffs.

I hope that Moss stays with the Pats, and breaks all of Rice's records. But until then, the comparison between him and Rice goes to Rice by a knock-out. One spectacular season is not enough. Rice did it in 12 games, in case you haven't heard.

You completely contradict yourself with those two statements. You can't say Moss is the most talented WR of all time and then give the nod to Rice. If you want to qualify it and say Rice was the hardest working WR of all time, fine. Or the most statistically successful WR to this point, then fine.

But you cannot extrapolate that to him being the greatest of all time. Not while simultaneously admitting Moss is the most talented ever and has had the single best season of any WR ever now that he's finally in a good environment with a HOF QB like Rice had.

 

[Tommysgirl]

Didn't know this little nugget of info, it was just on Sports Center. Apparently, he has a radio show now and he wanted Moss to come on and talk about the record. Moss declined and Rice feels like that is a slap in the face.

I didn't realize it was about Moss turning him down, just thought it was from the press conference after the game.

 

[Lansdowne]

The saddest thing is that King warned that Moss' comments would alienate future Hall of Fame voters. Claimed he knew voters personally who would not ever vote for Moss because Moss wasn't a nice guy and that Moss' "slap" to Jerrry Rice was further proof.

That's too bad if true. There's plenty of ***holes in the Hall of Fame. If Michael Irvin can get in, damn well bet Randy Moss will.

 

[Satchboogie3]

How is Moss a problem child? He beat up a racist jerk. Thats the only time he broke the law. Everything else are tiny things. Fake mooning, squiring a ref with water, etc. Does that really make someone a "problem child"...

Moss is just targeted by the media. You rarely hear good things about his personality becuase he doesn't talk to the media.

 

[Tommysgirl]

How is Moss a problem child? He beat up a racist jerk. Thats the only time he broke the law. Everything else are tiny things. Fake mooning, squiring a ref with water, etc. Does that really make someone a "problem child"...

Moss is just targeted by the media. You rarely hear good things about his personality becuase he doesn't talk to the media.

I think it's the whole meter maid fiasco..and the ganga problem that others focus on.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Rice is in love with himself. It isn't his record. Moss is spending time with his family right now and about to get ready for the playoffs. Moss already said he isn't concerned with stats and records; it's Rice that is the one that is obsessed with that stuff... because he's a selfish SOB.

Hey Rice, Moss doesn't have to go on your show, only to listen to you tell him
"... but my record was more impressive"/

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

You need to rethink this attitude. You can't judge someone without knowing and acknowledging where they came from.



You mean more like TO? Throwing Joe Montana and Steve Young under the bus isn't very respectable.



If you want your opinion to carry any weight, you should explain why. Waving your hands around and saying "I disagree" doesn't a valid argument make.





You completely contradict yourself with those two statements. You can't say Moss is the most talented WR of all time and then give the nod to Rice. If you want to qualify it and say Rice was the hardest working WR of all time, fine. Or the most statistically successful WR to this point, then fine.

But you cannot extrapolate that to him being the greatest of all time. Not while simultaneously admitting Moss is the most talented ever and has had the single best season of any WR ever now that he's finally in a good environment with a HOF QB like Rice had.

I love these kind of circular logic threads. I don't need to re-think anything, thanks very much.

If you say something that just makes no sense, it isn't my duty to pick up the pieces for you no matter what you think. Belichick and Brady's situations are not related to Moss's situation. Moss was high draft pick who was expected to play right away, Brady was a nobody. Belichick was a coach, not a player. I don't buy into this idea that you can say anything that you like and I need to go into a long expose' on the subject just to disagree with something that is wrong. I disagree. End of story. You have not sufficiently proven any of your imaginary scenarios or far-fetched analogies for me to be convinced. I don't need to argue obscure points to know that you are wrong.

And once again, you grasp at more straws by trying to tell me it is a contradiction to say that Moss is the most talented WR, which is true, and that Jerry Rice is the most productive, or best overall, or most accompolished, or hardest working, or GOAT, or most consistently great, or most likely to go to the HOF, or most famous, or anything else I want to say about Rice. The only thing Moss has on Rice is talent, and talent alone is not enough.

I will skip the imaginary scenarios, the far flung analogies, and will simply state that the GOAT WR will be the one with the stats to back it up. Right now Rice has the stats by a country mile. Maybe one day Moss will catch up, but not after one great season.

If Moss makes a strong run at Rice's regular season and post season stats, and Moss gets a couple rings on his finger, we can start to talk about when does raw talent trump the other considerations of production and work ethic and consistency. But Moss is simply not there yet, in fact not really close at this point. Two or three more amazing seasons, and we can re-open the issue with more evidence to back Moss, BUT NOT TODAY.

 

[Satchboogie3]

WTF are you talking about?

"Rice has the stats by a country mile..." Actually, comparing his stats through his first 155 games (Moss has played 154), they are quite close to Moss's (yds/rec and TD/rec are identical).

And you most CERTAINLY have to take into account the circumstance they were in. Rice played for a GREAT team up until his last few years, with one of the best QB's ever throwing to him. Moss had a good, but not HOF QB throwing to him in Min, and then spent 2 injury riddled years in OAK. Again, how is Moss supposed to tear it up when he is playing for a team that would be lucky to win 4 games WITH him, with a terrible QB and offensive line?

Are you going to say that Moss isn't as hard working because he got injured? Are you going to say that Moss isn't as good because he didn't put up other worldly stats with a terrible QB and offensive line?

If you can name me 1 great WR who put up amazing stats with a ****ty QB and offensive line, I'll give you a pass for ignoring his 2 years in OAK. Go on, try to find that. You won't.

 

[DaedalusX]

I don't need to re-think anything, thanks very much.

If you think a person's roots, upbringing and environment don't have an effect on who a person becomes, then yes, you do need to rethink a lot of things.

If you say something that just makes no sense, it isn't my duty to pick up the pieces for you no matter what you think. Belichick and Brady's situations are not related to Moss's situation. Moss was high draft pick who was expected to play right away, Brady was a nobody. Belichick was a coach, not a player.

Your first straw man: I didn't say they were related. I said they were comparable.
Your second straw man: Brady's draft position isn't at issue. If you want to say body of work and stats are more important, then until Brady surpasses all of Peyton's stats, Marino's and Montana's stats, Brady cannot be the GOAT, and yet even this far from retirement it is quite obvious he is. You're also implicitly arguing that individual stats trump all, which would mean Marino was better than Joe Montana. The same is true of Moss and Rice.

I don't buy into this idea that you can say anything that you like and I need to go into a long expose' on the subject just to disagree with something that is wrong. I disagree. End of story. You have not sufficiently proven any of your imaginary scenarios or far-fetched analogies for me to be convinced. I don't need to argue obscure points to know that you are wrong.

This is a weak response betraying a weak position. Laziness isn't an acceptable excuse for not countering a point in a debate you're willingly participating in.

And once again, you grasp at more straws by trying to tell me it is a contradiction to say that Moss is the most talented WR, which is true, and that Jerry Rice is the most productive, or best overall, or most accompolished, or hardest working, or GOAT, or most consistently great, or most likely to go to the HOF, or most famous, or anything else I want to say about Rice. The only thing Moss has on Rice is talent, and talent alone is not enough.

By whose measure? You're speaking in absolutes, but not qualifying your criteria whatsoever. Either you admit it's just your opinion and have no objective argument that definitively proves it one way or another, or you lay out the criteria, why you believe those criteria are those to measure against, and state point by point how Rice indisputably beats Moss in those criteria.

I will skip the imaginary scenarios, the far flung analogies, and will simply state that the GOAT WR will be the one with the stats to back it up. Right now Rice has the stats by a country mile. Maybe one day Moss will catch up, but not after one great season.

Your argument boils down to "stats trump all" and "I won't recognize intangibles, individual circumstances or anything else that won't fit in an excel sheet." That's a weak argument for a narrow definition of what makes a WR the GOAT.

You're entitled to your own opinion and to lay out your own specific criteria for what you consider GOAT, but if you speak in absolutes, you better be prepared to back up your claims with a logical argument.

 

[Satchboogie3]

5 Rings For Brady, I'm challenging you. If you find 1 WR who had an amazing season (1000+ yds, 14+ yds/rec, 15+TD, etc) while playing with a ****ty QB, I'll eat my words. Try.

And please don't try to call someone like Jake Delhomme a ****ty QB. I don't mean average or good QB, I mean ****ty QB. The QBs that Moss played with in OAK were a combined: 28TD, 38INT, 66 QB rating, 4 different QBs. Heck, Moss still managed 60 rec, 1005 yds, 16.8 yds/rec, and 8 TD in '05 with that ****ty team, offense and QBs...

So try to find 1 WR who had an amazing season with an bellow average QB (not even ****ty now). If you really want to eat your words, find 1 great WR who played his career under an ****ty/average QB.

And please, don't start listing guys who played in the '50s. Football was so incredibly different back then it's completely irrelevant to compare.

 

[TIMEsteelersfan]

Here to offer an outsiders perspective on the issue...

1. Moss is bigger and faster than Rice was, and also has a better vertical.

2. Rice had the greatest hands in the history of the planet. That's not a knock on Moss, he has great hands, just not like Rice did.

3. Rice was the better route runner, that can't be debated. Jerry's speed was very average for a WR... he was a perfect route runner.

4. Rice's durability/longevity is unmatched.

Looking at the physical assest that Moss has vs. what Rice had to work with there's zero doubt in my mind who the better reciever was. Jerry Rice.

In 1997, after 12 seasons in the NFL Rice tore up his knee and was sidelined for the entire season. He was 35 years old at the time. At that age he was able to come back from that injury and put up these numbers...

Post Injury - Age 35 to Age 42

492 rec./4.56 rec. per game
6440 yards/59.6 yards per game
42 TD's/.38 TD's per game

Those numbers are very impressive for a late thirties/early forties WR that shredded his knee at age 35.

His post injury career catapulted his numbers into some kind of fantasy land. For my money, Rice was the GOAT, no question.

 

[DaedalusX]

^^^ See, now this is an example of a solid, well constructed argument with established criteria to justify the conclusion.

I disagree on the criteria and conclusion, but I understand on what he's basing his view.

 

[NormZauchin]

If the Patriots hadn't traded the 16th pick in the 1985 draft to the 49ers, who used it to pick Jerry Rice, this thread would be about who was the greatest Patriot wide receiver, and Rice's very real faults would probably be forgotten.

 

[BbRrUeSwCsHkIe]

Moss never quit on a team.

You lost me right there.


Moss has certainly rehabbed his image this year but we all find God at some point when we realize we aren't our sneaker commercial.
Moss set a record. It's in the books. And there have always been jerks, Moss was one last year. Vinatieri is probably one now in the minds of many here. Nixon set records for landslide presidential wins when he had already been kicked to the curb.


Enjoy the day.