Jerry Rice reaps what he sowed

[IcyPatriot]

For good measure Moss will go on Dancing With the Stars and WIN ... take that Jerry.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Yep. Rice's body of work is amazing, but Moss is clearly more tallented WR. I think the real question here would be, who would you rather have on your team, Moss in his prime or Rice in his prime. I would most certainly take Moss in his prime.

I think that if Moss stays with the Patriots for the next 5 or 6 years, he will come awefully close to Rice's career marks, if not surpasing some. When I look at their body of work, the only real difference between Moss through 10 season and Rice through his first 10 season are the amout of receptions Rice got vs Moss. Productivity wise, they were basically identical, with the edge being given to Rice for more TDs. Moss's 2 years in OAK hurt his stats, but It's mostly not his fault (injury, ****ty QB and team).

I think the reason Moss hasn't had as many receptions as Rice is because he has always played with another great WR (MIN with Chris Carter, NE with Welker). From 98-2000, Both Rice and Moss both recorded over 1000 yds, and in 07, Moss and Welker had over 1000 yds. In 14 season with 1000+ yds, only 4 times did someone else one Rice's team have 1000+ yds. In 8 seasons with 1000+ yds, someone else on Moss's team has had 1000+ yds 4 times already. To make it short, Moss hasn't been as much of a ball hog as Rice (target for a better word).

Lastly, I believe Moss has seen far more double and triple coverage than Rice, thus he hasn't had as many rec per game as Rice.

 

[Rawky77]

Jerry Rice never once quit on a team. Good for you that Moss decided that it was worth his effort to try this year. But it's hard to respect a guy who got paid millions, screwed a team over that gave up a lot to give him, and basically forced a trade.

Moss is an amazing talent but Rice has more class in his finger than Moss does in his entire body.

Please tell when Rice ever played for a dysfunctional franchise being run by a senile ego maniac.

If Rice had ever played in that situation with his EGO he would not only have quit on his team he would have been in danger of becoming a homicidal maniac. Rice had the good fortune to always be associated with stable well run organizations.

Randy barring injuries will break every one of Rices records except maybe longevity and nothing Rice says will change this.

Highly talented people are fickle they respond differently then regular people to situations being a freak physically is no different then being a genius IQ it separates the person who possesses it from the rest of his peers. This results in slower maturity in every area except the one area they excel in. Thus most overly talented people take more then one path before they find the correct one for them.

Randy i am sure went to Oakland still searching for answers to who he was and the media had branded him a bad boy so he went to Oakland the home of all NFL bad boys still searching for his purpose and his place.

While Oakland was not the right place for Randy because Randy was not a bad boy as the media had portrayed but rather he was a freak of nature who had yet to mature into a man with his own identity and his own path in life.

The Oakland experience did in a backhanded way force Randy to come to understand who he was and what he truly wanted from life.

Randy wanted to prove to his detractors that he could still play the game of football at an elite level and Randy wanted one more thing, Randy wanted to WIN, WIN, WIN, WIN, WIN, WIN and then WIN some more so he could get the bad taste of his last yr in Minny and his 2 yrs in Oakland washed out of his system. This entire journey, if Randy were an artist, would be termed his bohemian period or the search for himself. Once Randy found himself he forced Oakland to trade him to the organization he now knew would be the best place for a mature Randy Moss to excel.

He has found what he is looking for here in NE, he has found his purpose and who he truly is, one of the greatest receivers in NFL history and he will hang onto that until he decides retire from this league.

 

[Satchboogie3]

You lost me right there.


Moss has certainly rehabbed his image this year but we all find God at some point when we realize we aren't our sneaker commercial.
Moss set a record. It's in the books. And there have always been jerks, Moss was one last year. Vinatieri is probably one now in the minds of many here. Nixon set records for landslide presidential wins when he had already been kicked to the curb.


Enjoy the day.

How did Moss quit on his team? Lets just put this in some perspective. If Jason Taylor had been having injury problems the last 1 1/2 years, with the dolphins 0-8 and looking like one of the worst teams ever, would ANYONE say he "quit" on his team if he decided to take his time recovering from his injury, and not giving 100% to the team. I can't think of a single person who would criticize him if he were to have done that. Moss does essentially the same thing and everyone says he quit.

 

[BRADY2MOSSS]

Rice was always an a-hole, but he got the job done every single time.

Moss was a major punk as well as a slacker, who never really got the job done to the best of his ability until this year. His stats are great, but a shadow of what they could have been, even with Dullpepper throwing him the ball.

Now we see what Moss could have been about if he spent more time dedicated to football and less time hitting traffic cops with his cousin's Cadillac.

We will never have to ask what Rice COULD HAVE achieved, because we have seen all he had to give on the football field. He has left us no doubt about his production.

Moss will always have an asterix next to his early years, *took plays off, could have done even more...

And I don't believe Moss will catch Rice because he doesn't have the work ethic and his body will break down sooner.

you are now on my ignore list. everyone else should do the same

 

[Satchboogie3]

5 Rings for Brady is going on my ignore list too. I can't believe he actually posted that. What an idiot. Do you actually believe the **** that comes out of your mouth?

 

[Xzibit23]

Yep. Rice's body of work is amazing, but Moss is clearly more tallented WR. I think the real question here would be, who would you rather have on your team, Moss in his prime or Rice in his prime. I would most certainly take Moss in his prime.

I think that if Moss stays with the Patriots for the next 5 or 6 years, he will come awefully close to Rice's career marks, if not surpasing some. When I look at their body of work, the only real difference between Moss through 10 season and Rice through his first 10 season are the amout of receptions Rice got vs Moss. Productivity wise, they were basically identical, with the edge being given to Rice for more TDs. Moss's 2 years in OAK hurt his stats, but It's mostly not his fault (injury, ****ty QB and team).

I think the reason Moss hasn't had as many receptions as Rice is because he has always played with another great WR (MIN with Chris Carter, NE with Welker). From 98-2000, Both Rice and Moss both recorded over 1000 yds, and in 07, Moss and Welker had over 1000 yds. In 14 season with 1000+ yds, only 4 times did someone else one Rice's team have 1000+ yds. In 8 seasons with 1000+ yds, someone else on Moss's team has had 1000+ yds 4 times already. To make it short, Moss hasn't been as much of a ball hog as Rice (target for a better word).

Lastly, I believe Moss has seen far more double and triple coverage than Rice, thus he hasn't had as many rec per game as Rice

And there we have the point I was about to make. IMO, when comparing Moss and Rice, there are 4 things we know, or at least 4 points I feel are facts:

1)Right now Rice is unquestionably, the GOAT WR. until Moss can do this for a couple of years, wwe cannot debate this seriously.

2)Now the reason why point 1 is true isn't because Moss hasn't ben as productive, or hasn't shown us enough to prove GOAT worthiness. I believe Moss has, over his first 10 seasons, already proven that he could be as great as Rice in a given season, minus last year with Oakland. Obviously, 10 seasons does not a career make, which is why my first point still stand. Jerry Rice is biggest asset when we look at his place in history was his insane longevity.

and now 2 points about intangibles that aren't on the stat sheet

3)Moss changed an offense much more than Rice ever did. As Satchboogie mentioned in his post, Moss is arguably the WR who's faced the highest number of double & triple coverage in this league's history. Even Belichick last April used those exact words when describing the Moss acquisition, saying he's the WR who has BY FAR seen the most double and triple teams since he came into the league.

4)Expanding on my 3rd point, Moss not only commanded attention but has an EXTREMELY unique skillset. He is, unquestionably the best deep threat in NFL History, he stretches the field to such an insane degree that for his QBs and fellow WRs he was a godsend. We can compare Rice to Marvin in being a great possession receiver, we can also compare him to TO in being great with catches over the middle and getting extra yardage. There is no one to compare to Randy Moss and what he's given offenses, and still gives offense. He's truly one of a kind. We already know what he did for Cunningham, Jeff George, Daunte, and now Brady. But he also gave WRs like Wes Welker a probowl year, he gave Nate Barleson a 1000 Yd season, he gave Chris Carter a couple of probowl seasons when his ability had diminished. Its is not a coincidence the top two offenses were both wth Moss on them.

So I think as others have mentioned, Moss has the intangible edge over Rice because of points 3 & 4. Because of those intangibles, its not a reach to say if he doesnt need to break Rice's career marks but simply approximates them, as well as, obviously, winning a couple of SBs, in order to get serious consideration as the GOAT WR.

Now, so Rice defenders dont get confused, I'll repeat that Rice now is still the GOAT, and its not realistic to say Moss is in that debate, and thats because he doesnt have the years. BUT its also not realistic to say Moss is a longshot away, or not in the same stratosphere, or doenst have a chance of becoming the GOAT WR. Because he can do all those things, and he's probably the only one who can.

 

[kriskanos]

Instead of calling Rice the GOAT how about we call him the HORSE or more specifically the HORSES *****!

 

[tuckeverlasting]

Instead of calling Rice the GOAT how about we call him the HORSE or more specifically the HORSES *****!

well, this is ironic because out here in san diego sports talk radio is making it out to be moss as the a-hole and rice on the white horse.

 

[MRBLAZE]

For good measure Moss will go on Dancing With the Stars and WIN ... take that Jerry.

That would be totally awesome.

 

[PatsFan24]

Rice took offense to Moss saying that breaking his record wasnt special. what I think moss was saying is that winning was more important, but rice took it as an insult.

 

[Fencer]

I agree...my point was that Manning didn't say anything about it...no words like Rice or the Fins...I agree PM has shown a LOT of class...I believe he and Brady are friends...makes sense...

Brady and Manning are definitely friends. It gets reported on fairly frequently.

I once saw in a gossip column they ate together at Oishii Sushi, which is also my favorite Japanese restaurant (although I go to the suburban location). Indeed, my wife took me there for my birthday a few days ago. When I mentioned that Brady and Manning ate there, she asked -- I'm not making this up -- "Who are Tom Brady and Peyton Manning?"

And this from a woman who has a perfectly reasonable attitude towards other sports, notably basketball and baseball.

 

[newton_tom_cat]

I heard on Mike and Mike this morning that Jerry Rice is upset about Moss not bending over and kissing Rices ass after he broke the TD rec. record. Rice made some disparaging comments about Moss, I was half asleep so sorry I didnt get a better quote. My point is weeks before leading up to the record being broken Rice had belittled the accomplishment every chance he got so why would he even expect Moss to aknowledge him? Memo to Rice you played 16 games 17 different years, of all those you never caught more than 17 tds( which you achieved once). So you beat a bunch of out of shape corners in a strike shortened season dont act like you never played under a 16 game schedule. Keep it up and you'll be an honorary '72 Dolphin.

what is it these old fart record holders like rice, ****erson and 72' dolphins want? its like they never moved on w/ their lives after football and believe the media BS they were God or something. put rice on tampa bay when he was w/ 9ers and no one would remember him by now because he'd have no records and no rings. ****erson never played for a winning team because he wasnt a team player -- all about "me me me" w/ him, still is. and the 72' fins were a function of favorable officiating from shula's "competition committee" refs. all these clowns should be thankful they ever had anything in the 1st place instead of getting all pissy about what the real players are doing today

 

[borg]

Where were the Video Tributes for Moss and Brady. When Bonds set the HR record, Aaron was up on the big screen looking down on the roid boy congratulating him. When Favre set the career TD record, Marino gave a creepy video tribute during the game. Not that I really expect single season records to receive such treatment, but I have never heard of the new record holder calling the former and stroking him...it is the other way around.....Hell, even the President calls the winners. Imagine BB winning the SB this year and then calling up Shula and saying ....Sorry we buried your weak scheduled record.

 

[marty]

Why cant Moss take this record the way he wants to take it, why the hell should he embrace it when you have Rice saying how he didnt do it in 12 games crying like a little school girl, well moss didnt do it in 12 games that is correct Jerry but he also didnt have the local garbage man and local bartender playing corner against him either! Funny how that little bit of fact gets lost in the shuffle so easily. Really how many td's would moss have this year going up against the likes of me or you avg people who could never make it in the pro leagues but got that chance when the players walked out on strike! Mosses job is to play football not make friends with media people, why should he give respect when over half of these turds didnt give him any in return!

:agree:

PERFECT!!! This is why Peter King has gone on my do not read list!!! Inciting crap like this.

Here's another thought by the way....Why should Randy call Rice when clearly he (Rice), didn't think Randy was breaking his record since he'd done it in 12games! Tongue in cheek or not, it was a crappy thing to bring up at all!

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

5 Rings for Brady is going on my ignore list too. I can't believe he actually posted that. What an idiot. Do you actually believe the **** that comes out of your mouth?

You guys are hilarious.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

If you think a person's roots, upbringing and environment don't have an effect on who a person becomes, then yes, you do need to rethink a lot of things.



Your first straw man: I didn't say they were related. I said they were comparable.
Your second straw man: Brady's draft position isn't at issue. If you want to say body of work and stats are more important, then until Brady surpasses all of Peyton's stats, Marino's and Montana's stats, Brady cannot be the GOAT, and yet even this far from retirement it is quite obvious he is. You're also implicitly arguing that individual stats trump all, which would mean Marino was better than Joe Montana. The same is true of Moss and Rice.



This is a weak response betraying a weak position. Laziness isn't an acceptable excuse for not countering a point in a debate you're willingly participating in.



By whose measure? You're speaking in absolutes, but not qualifying your criteria whatsoever. Either you admit it's just your opinion and have no objective argument that definitively proves it one way or another, or you lay out the criteria, why you believe those criteria are those to measure against, and state point by point how Rice indisputably beats Moss in those criteria.



Your argument boils down to "stats trump all" and "I won't recognize intangibles, individual circumstances or anything else that won't fit in an excel sheet." That's a weak argument for a narrow definition of what makes a WR the GOAT.

You're entitled to your own opinion and to lay out your own specific criteria for what you consider GOAT, but if you speak in absolutes, you better be prepared to back up your claims with a logical argument.

Yada, yada, yada.

Instead of getting into enviromental studies and your straw man analysis, I think I will stick to the facts, which you apparently have trouble doing. I have no use for imaginary situations or analogies which are irrelevant to the facts of the matter.

Jerry Rice is the GOAT in every possible measureable category except that he has one less TD in a single season than Moss. Moss has far less post season stats to look at and no rings on his finger. That is some of the data people look at when they start lining up GOAT candidates. People look for an overall resume of stats, playoff wins, rings on the finger, ect. Then they take into consideration all the intangibles such as talent and clutch ability. I watched Moss play in the post season, and he was a complete non-factor in some key situations. He either took plays off or lost his focus because when his number was called he dropped easy catches that could have changed the outcome. Hardly a 'clutch' intangible performance.

Rice has it all, Moss doesn't AT THIS TIME. Players that get into the HOF normally need to play on championship teams and have post season success. It is just part of what people consider in the process. The difference in talent between Rice and Moss is minor compared to the difference in achievement. Moss will have to finish his career REALLY strong to bridge that gap.

Moss clearly has the ability to close the gap, and if he does then people will start to ask the question whether talent and good production trumps a little less talent but unreal production. Those are the type discussions that people have at the end of a player's career. You just want to leap to conclusions like a typical fanboy and make the statement half way through Moss's career.

As far as Brady, he has three rings on his finger, two superbowl MVPs, and the highest playoff and regular season win percentages and the greatest season of all time under his belt. Likely, he will have the coveted season MVP to go with it. Clearly he has plenty of data to draw from in the regular season, post season and superbowl wins. He is also rapidly building stats to close the gap on some of the all time greats. But again, I am not gong to get drawn into arguing irrelevant or non-related scenarios, of which you have an endless supply. This conversation is about Moss and Rice, not Brady, not Belichick, not a child's upbringing in this world. Brady will be judged based on his complete body of work, like everybody is.

I will stick to the basic facts of the matter. Moss simply has more to achieve before anybody starts asking the question if he was a better football player and WR than Jerry Rice. People that go to the HOF or become the GOAT are judged on an entire career of achievement. Rice annihilates Moss in post season stats and also is far ahead in regular season stats. Rice has a handful of superbowl rings. Until Moss bridges the gap, most of the rational people around the country are going to consider RICE as the GOAT. Getting the job done is what matters most, and when two people achieve relatively similiar results over their ENTIRE CAREER do you start to make judgement calls about who is the GOAT.

The absolute lamest thing that you have mentioned in this thread was your first statement that Moss is so superior to Rice that it can't even be argued. That Moss is on a totally different level and it can't even be argued. With an opening statement like that, you are basically out to lunch with anything else you say. You could get a hundred thousand different arguments about why Rice was better. You would find far less support around this country as to why Moss is better except in raw talent. Likely that will change as Moss continues to excel.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Please tell when Rice ever played for a dysfunctional franchise being run by a senile ego maniac.

If Rice had ever played in that situation with his EGO he would not only have quit on his team he would have been in danger of becoming a homicidal maniac. Rice had the good fortune to always be associated with stable well run organizations.

Randy barring injuries will break every one of Rices records except maybe longevity and nothing Rice says will change this.

Highly talented people are fickle they respond differently then regular people to situations being a freak physically is no different then being a genius IQ it separates the person who possesses it from the rest of his peers. This results in slower maturity in every area except the one area they excel in. Thus most overly talented people take more then one path before they find the correct one for them.

Randy i am sure went to Oakland still searching for answers to who he was and the media had branded him a bad boy so he went to Oakland the home of all NFL bad boys still searching for his purpose and his place.

While Oakland was not the right place for Randy because Randy was not a bad boy as the media had portrayed but rather he was a freak of nature who had yet to mature into a man with his own identity and his own path in life.

The Oakland experience did in a backhanded way force Randy to come to understand who he was and what he truly wanted from life.

Randy wanted to prove to his detractors that he could still play the game of football at an elite level and Randy wanted one more thing, Randy wanted to WIN, WIN, WIN, WIN, WIN, WIN and then WIN some more so he could get the bad taste of his last yr in Minny and his 2 yrs in Oakland washed out of his system. This entire journey, if Randy were an artist, would be termed his bohemian period or the search for himself. Once Randy found himself he forced Oakland to trade him to the organization he now knew would be the best place for a mature Randy Moss to excel.

He has found what he is looking for here in NE, he has found his purpose and who he truly is, one of the greatest receivers in NFL history and he will hang onto that until he decides retire from this league.

When did Rice play with the Raiders?

Is that the question you are asking?

 

[Deus Irae]

Yada, yada, yada.

Instead of getting into enviromental studies and your straw man analysis, I think I will stick to the facts, which you apparently have trouble doing. I have no use for imaginary situations or analogies which are irrelevant to the facts of the matter.

Jerry Rice is the GOAT in every possible measureable category except that he has one less TD in a single season than Moss. Moss has no post season stats to look at and no rings on his finger. That is some of the data people look at when they start lining up GOAT candidates. People look for an overall resume of stats, playoff wins, rings on the finger, ect. Then they take into consideration all the intangibles such as talent and clutch ability. I watched Moss play in the post season, and he was a complete non-factor. He took plays off or lost his focus because when his number was called he dropped easy catches that could have changed the outcome of the game. Hardly a 'clutch' intangible performance.

Rice has it all, Moss doesn't AT THIS TIME. Players that get into the HOF normally need to play on championship teams and have post season success. It is just part of what people consider in the process. The difference in talent between Rice and Moss is minor compared to the difference in achievement. Moss will have to finish his career REALLY strong to bridge that gap....

Ehhh.... neither Moss nor Rice is the 'inarguable' GOAT receiver. There are one or two receivers from the earlier days who were a match for either of them. And, no I'm not going to name them just so people can get this thread even further off topic.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Moss has played in 8 playoff games and has averaged better stats in those games than did Rice in his 28 playoff games.